Klipsch Reference Owners???

[MatrixDweller]

I am considering a sub upgrade sometime in the future. I like the SVS PB13–Ultra or the PB12-Plus/2. They seem to be highly rated and cost effective. A Velodyne SPL-1200R would be nice too. I'm not sure if my budget will let me go that high.

I've considered getting a second RW12d also. The RW12d is not the best sub on the planet, but I know somebody that gets me dealer cost on Klipsch.

[drdoan]

The newer Klipsch subs are good and if you get a good price for one, go for it. The SVS's are world class and can be compared dollar for dollar with any sub in existance. I love my SVS PB12-Plus/2 with the new woofers. There is something about hearing and feeling that low bass that makes the movies for me. Keep us posted. Dennis

[glaufman]

I've been running a pair of RF-3s for a while... I absolutely love'em to death... only problem is I now want to add the RC-3 for a center speaker, and can't seem to find one anywhere...

Anyone know a good source? PLEASE?

[MatrixDweller]

I've seen a few on Ebay. You'll have to check periodically. Craigslist or Audiogon might have some now and then too.

[Jack Dotson]

No one has the RF-83's?

I can't even find a dealer to audition them. I read they're fantastic for HT, but not nearly as good as the Heritage's for music. Since I couldn't auditon I took the plunge for a new pair of Cornwall III's a few months back, but still wish I could have heard the 83's.

There not nearly as wide and would have been a nice fit in my living room. Still may end up with a pair down the road. My wife would be happier, that's for sure.

[glaufman]

Never underestimate the power of the WAF

[KlOut]

I have the RF-83 system (minus sub). I'm powering it with a Denon 3803. For some reason that combo seems a little under powered in my 12 x 27 room. Hoping that an upgrade to the Onkyo 905, and an upgrade to the 12.3 woofers (from 12.1) in my dual SVS 20-39 CS will be all I need to get that ear to ear I so seek.

I did recently take advantage of the winter sub sale at Outlaw. Picked up a LFM-1 EX, and although I have not calibrated it yet, it seems to easily outperform the dual SVS's (never could get them to sound right in my room no matter how many dozen times I've moved them around. Hopefully the 12.3 upgrade will hook me up). I also intend to learn as much as possible on this wonderful forum about the BFD & other room tweeking tools!

[bmplockmonster]

i just switched from polk lsi15&center to thr rf-63's rc-62 and rb61 for surrounds and i can't believe how much happier i am!!!

[j-dizzle]

I have a Denon 3805 powering RF-3's and an RSW-10, and on stereo mode it seems to be a bit bright for me. I have the treble at +1 and bass at +2. Just wish it was warmer sounding.

I know that a different receiver brand would change the sound like integra, NAD, Macintosh, etc.... but I don''t want to spend the money.

I have it running with an optical digital cable. Should I use analog interconnects or an digital coax??

Thanks for the help guys!!!

[bmplockmonster]

i dont think cables will make the sound any warmer,try turning the treble down to 0 or -1.

[risky]

I'm running rf83', rc64, rs62's and rsw 12 sub. I powered them for awhile with a rx-v2400 which seemed to work alright for HT. Two channel the rf83's seemed to be short on power, after doing some research on klipsch forum I found out the 83's have a real low impedence dip somewhere around 2.3 ohms. I 'm now using the rx-v2400 as a pre pro and using an outlaw 7500 for power. The difference was night and day.

[MatrixDweller]

I had a Denon 3805 matched with Klipsch RB81's and a RC62. I wouldn't say it sounded bright at all. When I up/downgraded to a 2808ci I found that the center channel became bright. I attribute that to the fact the the 3805 has AL24+ processing on all channels whereas the 2808 has it on FR/FL only. The AL24+ processing smooths things out and makes things sound more real (as if played from vinyl).

AL24 processing is not applied to an analog signal but is on any PCM signal. You might want to check to see if the AL24 is kicking in. You might have to adjust or change your source. I know that different disc players sound different and Klipsch speakers are very revealing. I had a Samsung universal disc player (HD841) that sounded pretty nice even though it was cheap. My HD-A2 does not sound as nice to me playing CDs. Both outputting through optical PCM bitstream.

Some causes of poor sound quality could be:
1) A source could possibly have time shifting errors or jitter that could cause aliasing of the signal. AL24+ is supposed to smooth aliasing and digital signals in general, but a signal that is really bad might be beyond repair.
2) The plastic in an optical cable can degrade over time and dirt can accumulate in the ends. It is a digital signal, but missing data can become audible as aliasing.
3) An optical cable that is coiled too small can cause a lot of reflections within the cable and could result in missing data.

There are other factors and generally a better rated player will sound better. If you could borrow a Denon 2930, 3910 or similar you would probably notice a big difference. Using Denon Link III from the player might also give an improvement. You could also try popping a HDCD in your player as the 3805 can decode that.

I have heard that coaxial digital can differ in sound from optical and can eliminate some of the problems you can encounter with an optical cable. Although it can introduce other problem. It can't hurt to try a coaxial cable out. Let us know the results.

[Dionyz]

KlOut wrote:

I have the RF-83 system (minus sub). I'm powering it with a Denon 3803. For some reason that combo seems a little under powered in my 12 x 27 room. Hoping that an upgrade to the Onkyo 905, and an upgrade to the 12.3 woofers (from 12.1) in my dual SVS 20-39 CS will be all I need to get that ear to ear I so seek.

I did recently take advantage of the winter sub sale at Outlaw. Picked up a LFM-1 EX, and although I have not calibrated it yet, it seems to easily outperform the dual SVS's (never could get them to sound right in my room no matter how many dozen times I've moved them around. Hopefully the 12.3 upgrade will hook me up). I also intend to learn as much as possible on this wonderful forum about the BFD & other room tweeking tools!

As Risky says, RF-83s have low impendance. And in your case you have the worst receiver for the RF-83s.

When I was auditioning my RF-83s, I listened to them with Yamaha 3800, Onkyo 905 and Denon 3808.
With the Yamaha and Onkyo they sounded amazing - tons of detail and very dynamic.
When I switched to the Denon, it they sounded like cheap speakers - gone was the detai and the dynamics. I also had to turn up the volume almost to full to get reasonable sound level.

The Denons are not capable of driving the low impendance RF-83s. You need to start looking for another receiver or better yet use the Denon as a pre and get an amp with the most power you can afford.

The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency.
I have the Onkyo 905, a 140 w/ch receiver which works great driving the RF-83s.
However, due to RF-83s very low distortion, they play very clean and I find myself listening to them at louder levels then you would imagine, reaching -3 to 0 dB level on the receiver.
I do not turn it up more, as I do not want clipping.

As soon as I finish my home theater (another 3 weeks) which will have sound treatment, I will be adding a D-Sonic Magnum 2500 amplifier, which is 500 w/ch accross LCR and and 250 w/ch accross the 4 surrounds. Then the system should realy sing.

All that power is not for exagarating the volume levels, but more for the dynamic peaks. If you do the SPL calcs, you will find out that to be able to reproduce sound at close to THX reference levels and still have power reserve for the dynamic peaks found in films (20 to 40 dB), you need at least 250 w/ch, even with the super efficient RF-83s.

Those with speakers with lower efficiency (less than 94 dB/watt) are really fooling themselves if they think they are getting full reproduction of movie soundtracs. Doing the SPL calcs anyone can see that the normal receiver will be clipping like crazy.
However, they have probably never heard clean, uncliped, reproduction and thus have no clue what it sounds like.

There is no such thing as too much power !!!

[Canadian_Dude]

I have a pair of RF-82s and I will eventually get the RC-62 and 2 RS-52s when I get the cash. I love the sound of these speakers, even in my horrible tiny room they sound great. I decided to get an Epik sub instead of RSW-10D because I think they look meaner and should perform much better.

[TiEcs]

I recently upgraded from RF35, RC35, RB25, RW12 to the newer RF83, RC64, RS62, RT12d set.

My Denon 2106 will be leaving once my Onkyo 905 will be delivered.
Never heard the 905, but the 875 sounded already super on the RF83.
Hopefully the 905 will do even better (must be )

[MatrixDweller]

That's greatto hear about the Onkyo 875 sounding nice. I'm tossing around whether to get the Denon 3808 or the 875. I'm thinking the 875 has better audio for the buck. The only things that had me sitting on the fence was the network capability and the GUI. I can always buy a network streamer separately and the GUI isn't that bad on the Onkyos.

[thxgoon]

Despite what some here may say your 3805 is a great receiver. It is more than capable of running your speakers. If you hear clipping then there is something wrong with it. I would definitely set your bass and treble controls to flat and play around with the auto eq to see if you can find the sound you're looking for. Klipsch can sound bright and forward to some listeners and really are a love it or hate it speaker. Try running the eq with the mic in different positions and if you can add some room treatment or even move the listening position. I was amazed at how much better my system sounded when I changed the wall that my system was on. Good luck and keep us posted! You have an awesome receiver and great speakers!

Dionyz wrote:

As Risky says, RF-83s have low impendance. And in your case you have the worst receiver for the RF-83s.

The Denon is fine if not great for low impedances. I have run low impedence loads on mine for years at levels above reference with no clipping. Several other members could attest to this as well. Don't forget, an amp that is not clipping is not out of current.

When I was auditioning my RF-83s, I listened to them with Yamaha 3800, Onkyo 905 and Denon 3808.
With the Yamaha and Onkyo they sounded amazing - tons of detail and very dynamic.
When I switched to the Denon, it they sounded like cheap speakers - gone was the detai and the dynamics. I also had to turn up the volume almost to full to get reasonable sound level.

The Denons are not capable of driving the low impendance RF-83s. You need to start looking for another receiver or better yet use the Denon as a pre and get an amp with the most power you can afford.

I would think that there was a problem with setup in the room. The Denon if setup properly and not connected to a bad switch in the room should have held it's own against the others. Onkyo is a great receiver but the difference should not be dramatic... at the very least db levels should have been exactly the same all things being equal.

Again... any amp not clipping is not out of current and is driving the load without issue.

The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency.

With all respect, this statement is self contradictary. An efficient speaker will take less power for a given level of output. If you're referring to the fact that you like to listen at reference levels, then yes they do like to be played loud and is a big reason people buy Klipsch. However a high sensitivity speaker will require much less power for a given level of playback, hence less need for a gigantic amp. A Denon, or a cheap Sony will drive Klipsch to reference without clipping...

I find myself listening to them at louder levels then you would imagine, reaching -3 to 0 dB level on the receiver.
I do not turn it up more, as I do not want clipping.

With your amp and your speakers you would be fine going beyond reference if you wanted to. Many of us listen at those levels from time to time.

All that power is not for exagarating the volume levels, but more for the dynamic peaks. If you do the SPL calcs, you will find out that to be able to reproduce sound at close to THX reference levels and still have power reserve for the dynamic peaks found in films (20 to 40 dB), you need at least 250 w/ch, even with the super efficient RF-83s.

105db is the max peak level in film. This is a digital 'wall' and cannot be exceeded other than buy cranking your volume higher. Even moderate amps can drive most modern speakers to reference without clipping. Again, an amp not clipping is doing just fine... it is not out of current or anything else.

There is no such thing as too much power !!!

But there is such thing as enough. Why buy 500 watts if you'll only ever use 100? There is nothing scientifically beneficial about running a 500 watt amp at 100 watts over a smaller amp that is not clipping.

From experience, I run 4 ohm nominal speakers that dip below 3 ohms and have an 87db sensitivity and have run them with both a 125 watt separate amp and a 140 watt Denon receiver. I've exceeded reference levels for extended periods of time with both amps and never run out of power...

[bmplockmonster]

i use my rf-63's w/ an onkyo 805 and an outlaw 7500.these speakers are absolutely amazing!i have tried them w/o the outlaw andjust the onkyo to see if these speakers would sound the same,being so sensitive.there is so much more detail and seperation in music when using the ex amp.i bought the amp for some polk lsi15's which are very power hungry at 86db into 4ohms.they NEVER did sound right to me.i kept blowing out the highs becouse i was turning them up to loud as they were not giving me what i was looking for.as for the klipsh,the never get turned up as loud as the polks(+15 sometimes on the polks as opposed to +5 on the klipsh at max)theres more to amps than just watts is my long and drawn out point.my 805 sounds much better w/ the klipsh than w/ the polks, but not nearly as nice as w/ the external amp and the klipsh.

[Dionyz]

thxgoon

It continues to amaze me how it always seems to be a set-up issue when people see poor performance for Denon receivers with the Klipsch speakers. If set up is an issue it would also happen with Onkyo and Yamaha.

FYI - my listening tests were done with all 3 receivers in pure/direct mode, which means ALL set-up tweaks are by-passed. If Denon does not by-pass all tone and cross over adjustments in the pure/direct mode, then it is BAD design.

Quote:
The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency.
With all respect, this statement is self contradictary.

With respect to this statement it is not contradictory at all. The RF-83s do get louder as they should. However, as I stated, the bass and percussion gets more controlled and life like at higher volumes. Go listen to RF-83s and you will hear what I am saying.

Also, not every receiver can supply the what the RF-83s need. Denon 3808, in my listening experiece, definitelly can't - it ran out of volume before getting to a comparable level as the Onkyo. I also suspect the Sony would have trouble, as I heve heard that their amp sections are quite weak (can't confirm as I have never had an interest in Sony receivers)

Quote:
Even moderate amps can drive most modern speakers to reference without clipping. Again, an amp not clipping is doing just fine... it is not out of current or anything else.

Please do your math. The 105 dB THX level is for average peaks. Gun shots and explosions can be another 20 to 40 dB above this. Thus to have realistic reproduction, the speaker-amp combination, IMHO, need to be able to reach 115 to 125 dB maximum (not average) peaks. Thus see the following table for a 86 dB/watt sensitive speaker and you can see it can't reach those levels.

dB watts
86 1
89 2
92 4
95 8
98 16
101 32
104 64
107 128
110 256
113 512
116 1024
119 2048
122 4096
125 8192

It is also possible you do not recognize clipping if you have never heard an unclipped dynamic sound. Many receivers and amps have soft clipping circuits that round off the peaks, thus you do not get the full dynamic response. People can get accustomed to this and don't even know what they are missing unless they have heard what an unclipped soundtrack sounds like with a powerfull amplifier.

For the RF-83s the table is as follows

dB watts
100 1
103 2
106 4
109 8
112 16
115 32
118 64
121 128
124 256
127 512

So it it looks like you can get to about 120 dB with a 140 watt/ch receiver.
However, you can't ignore the fact that these speakers dip down to about 3 ohms.
At 3 ohms, the receiver/amp has to be able to supply almost 4 times the wattage.
Thus if the receiver/amp does not have a robust amplifier section, it will never get there.
Denon can't, despite the manufacturers claims. Others have confirmed what I am saying.

However, at the end of the day it comes down to your taste and your expectations.
If you are satisfied with the sound you are getting from your speaker and receive/amp combination, then I a glad for you.

Sound is a very subjective and personnal thing.
Far be it for me to tell someone else what to choose.

I am strictly describing my personnal experience and pointing out the physics of sound reproduction for those that care and can hear the difference.

p.s. Calibration levels and listening levels are different.
i.e. Calibration level for subwoofers is typicaly 75 dB. However, no one listens or is satisfied at this level.
The true afficionados of good bass are not happy unless their sub is belting out at least 105 dB peaks in the 15 Hz to 25 Hz range (I use Epik Conquest to get faithfull bass reproduction)

The same way THX calibration may be at 85 dB. However, movie theaters have the sound level well above this, which also means the peaks are above 105 dB. At least that is the case at Warren theaters, which are always state of the art.

[thxgoon]

Dionyz wrote:

thxgoon

It continues to amaze me how it always seems to be a set-up issue when people see poor performance for Denon receivers with the Klipsch speakers. If set up is an issue it would also happen with Onkyo and Yamaha.

FYI - my listening tests were done with all 3 receivers in pure/direct mode, which means ALL set-up tweaks are by-passed. If Denon does not by-pass all tone and cross over adjustments in the pure/direct mode, then it is BAD design.

Granted I don't have any experience with Onkyo other than demoing at CC, but most receivers I know of don't bypass speaker size, distance and level settings in their direct modes. I also know a salesman who will go to great lengths to make a brand they don't like sound bad.

Besides, If there is any speaker on the planet that will sound good with a bad amp, it is Klipsch! This is exactly why they were designed!

The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency.
With all respect, this statement is self contradictary.

With respect to this statement it is not contradictory at all. The RF-83s do get louder as they should. However, as I stated, the bass and percussion gets more controlled and life like at higher volumes. Go listen to RF-83s and you will hear what I am saying.

Please explain to me how a more efficient speaker will require more power???? If the music had more dynamics, clarity and punch, but neither amp was clipping then it is not a factor of power. It is something else.

I've heard the RF83's, I sold them for years, along with Denon, Sunfire, Krell, and many other receivers (though never Onkyo) and they are without a doubt one of the easiest loads to drive. They are designed to be. You are knocking a great receiver and lumping a blanket assessment across the entire brand based on one bad experience. I hardly call that scientific or objective.

Also, not every receiver can supply the what the RF-83s need. Denon 3808, in my listening experiece, definitelly can't - it ran out of volume before getting to a comparable level as the Onkyo. I also suspect the Sony would have trouble, as I heve heard that their amp sections are quite weak (can't confirm as I have never had an interest in Sony receivers)

Ran out of volume how... you kept turning it up and it stayed the same level or you were at +18 and it was quiet?

Please do your math. The 105 dB THX level is for average peaks. Gun shots and explosions can be another 20 to 40 dB above this.

Wrong. As stated before the 105db is a digital 'wall'. Nothing can be recorded above this level. It is the loudest a calibrated system will get with a calibrated source. The only way to exceed this is by going above 0db on your receiver and cranking up the gain.

For the RF-83s the table is as follows

dB watts
100 1
103 2
106 4
109 8
112 16
115 32
118 64
121 128
124 256
127 512

So it it looks like you can get to about 120 dB with a 140 watt/ch receiver.
However, you can't ignore the fact that these speakers dip down to about 3 ohms.
At 3 ohms, the receiver/amp has to be able to supply almost 4 times the wattage.
Thus if the receiver/amp does not have a robust amplifier section, it will never get there.
Denon can't, despite the manufacturers claims. Others have confirmed what I am saying.

At three ohms you'll need about 2.somthingX more power. You'd need 4X at 2 ohms. With years of experience in both home and pro audio, I can assure you I know what clipping sounds like. If that Denon you were listening to was driven into clipping by RF-83's, at anything below (or quite a bit above) reference, it was broken.

Sound is a very subjective and personnal thing.
Far be it for me to tell someone else what to choose

Yes please consider that before make statements like this:

"And in your case you have the worst receiver for the RF-83s."

Especially when there is no scientific data to back this up. Only a botched listening session.

p.s. Calibration levels and listening levels are different.
i.e. Calibration level for subwoofers is typicaly 75 dB. However, no one listens or is satisfied at this level.
The true afficionados of good bass are not happy unless their sub is belting out at least 105 dB peaks in the 15 Hz to 25 Hz range (I use Epik Conquest to get faithfull bass reproduction)

The same way THX calibration may be at 85 dB. However, movie theaters have the sound level well above this, which also means the peaks are above 105 dB. At least that is the case at Warren theaters, which are always state of the art.

Calibration levels should always be the same. That is why they are calibration levels. The 75db calibration files are recorded at -30db, so that when a 0db signal comes along the speakers are now playing at 105db. Same with 85db calibration, -20 gives 85db so 0db gives 105, and -30db still gives 75db. They are all the same. And remember there is no such thing as a signal above 0db in the digital world.

If things differ, then it is user settings based on personal liking. I'll be the first to admit that my bass response has a nice house curve and I generally have the subs about 3db high. I like it this way even though it is not 'calibrated'. And even though the rest of my system is calibrated, I usually listen at about -10db or so. These are examples of listening habits and personal settings, not differences in calibration.