Floorstander vs. Bookshelf for HT - Page 9 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #81 of 86 Old 12-31-09, 07:51 PM
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Re: Floorstander vs. Bookshelf for HT

mjg100 wrote:
115 db at 10Hz? Are you sure about that. A pair of 18" LMS 5400 in 200L with two 18" passive radiators is not capable of doing that and the 18" LMS has a lot more excursion and power handling
1) Those PRs are tuned to ~17hz I believe and it has a 6th order rolloff. My subs are tuned to ~13hz and have a 4th order rolloff.

2) Those subs were measured outdoors at 2m groundplane, so the numbers are lacking room gain and - in my case - boundary gain from corner placement. The boundary gain alone is worth a discrete 6-9db at all frequencies for each subwoofer. My room gain starts ~20hz and is maybe 6db / octave.

3) My subs don't need a lot of power to achieve high cone travel because my enclosures are much larger (over 3x as large), thus my low end is more efficient than the LMS subs.

3) Two of those LMS subs would be more than reference capable - even in an outdoor 2m groundplane test, and even when distortion limited - from 20hz on up.

So while an Avalanche 18 doesn't have as much air moving capability as a LMS 18, due to the points above, I'm still capable of over 115db in the range discussed.
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post #82 of 86 Old 01-06-10, 08:53 PM
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Re: Floorstander vs. Bookshelf for HT

the_rookie wrote: View Post
My goal is not to come off condescending, or rude; but most of the discussions in this thread have been about cabinet size. One the basis of localization is much easier, much more versatile for LCR uses, as well as having all 7 speakers being used as the same speaker. Furthermore, the size issue has come up as a generalization that larger is better among almost all the people here. Not to say I don't think this, but this has been the case.

So yes, I would say my arrangement has validity, as well as good points. A true scientist cannot say for certain his idea is the best, or most right. But to try and spread his rational as well as view points around to give others a different perspective on an idea.

I will agree that I am biased towards Towers aka Floorstanders on the basis of the the generalization that bigger is better. I was raised in a house with big speakers, and my father feels the same way. Naturally I took it up as a first opinion. As an adult I am open to this, but no matter how well designed a speaker is it has limitations. And with this I will stand by my opinion until proven wrong with the proper evidence that a bookshelf speaker will not outperform a tower when they are designed exactly the same. Now price to price...maybe a similar priced of each the tower may not perform as well as a well as a similar priced bookshelf. But than again it all comes down to brand name + design quality. Because some brands are expensive for not alot of bang for the buck while others are much better priced. I mean SVS vs Velodyne in similar price ranges...its no contest, while klipsch vs Paradigm has very competive stuff, but prices...who would choose who?
A tower speaker has a blocked off area for the low end. What is the advantage of having that low end attached to the rest of the speaker vs having it separate? Now if the smaller speaker can not keep up at it's bottom end at lets say 100Hz then advantage goes to the tower. Now the separate sub will be able to dig deeper and with more SPL vs the woofer in the tower, so advantage to sub with bookshelf. If the integration between the sub and the bookshelf is good then you have basically made a better full range speaker.
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post #83 of 86 Old 01-06-10, 10:04 PM
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Re: Floorstander vs. Bookshelf for HT

mjg100 wrote:
What is the advantage of having that low end attached to the rest of the speaker vs having it separate?
The advantage is that most 3 way towers cross over to the woofer section around 250-400hz, so you have dedicated drivers for the range of ~80-400hz. If you use a bookshelf and a seperate subwoofer, you typically won't cross over to the subwoofer at 250-400hz, it will be more like 80-100hz, and the single midwoofer is left having to cover from below the tweeter (let's say ~2khz) down to 80-100hz. It isn't nearly as capable as a dedicated woofer section.

A subwoofer is called a "sub"woofer because it's not really meant to play up to 250-400hz. A woofer is meant for that range. A standalone powered woofer in an enclosure is typically called a superwoofer, but those aren't really used anymore, as you have to have a way to use external crossovers and have seperate amps. With a tower speaker, you just plug in one set of speaker cables and need one source of amplification.
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post #84 of 86 Old 01-06-10, 10:35 PM
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Re: Floorstander vs. Bookshelf for HT

Has anyone been able to find a graph to validate the statements about 200-400Hz performance of bookshelves compared to towers of similar manufacture?

If this is true: then this is *critical* to any given speakers performance and I've never seen anyone publish it as a spec. If this is nigh-universal with 5-6" drivers, how do I know if that 8" I'm staring at on Parts Express will do 200 well, much less 100? All I have is the FR chart. For that matter: how do I know a given tower will.

My Studio 60 tower has the same drivers and crossover as my Studio 40 bookshelf. What now? What about The 2-way towers with 5-6" drivers (infinity has some I know, I've no doubt I can find plenty on Audiogon)?

And where is the cutoff to do 80Hz? 8"? 10"? Surely it's not simply "always get the biggest", because we've had that discussion already.

Last edited by JerryLove; 01-06-10 at 10:42 PM.
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post #85 of 86 Old 01-07-10, 01:09 AM
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Re: Floorstander vs. Bookshelf for HT

Jerry, you've asked for that measurement numerous times in this thread and I've told you that I don't know of any website who takes a compression test measurement for speakers. If you really need to see the measurement, you will have to take it yourself. However, you shouldn't need the measurement, it's simply physics and common sense at play.

As for Studio 40 vs 60, the frequency range in which there is a difference in performance is below the range I am talking about. A larger enclosure with the same drivers will only increase the low frequency efficiency, it does nothing to increase air moving capability.

Where is the cutoff to do 80hz - at what amplitude, from how far away, and how much power will you have available to feed it? If we're talking reference level capability at say 6', and you want to do it relatively cleanly, you'd probably need no less than the equivalent of a 10" driver (dual 7" woofers, three 6" woofers, quad 5" woofers) for just the woofer section.
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post #86 of 86 Old 01-07-10, 01:20 AM
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Re: Floorstander vs. Bookshelf for HT

I think this thread has served it's purpose so closing.
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