Mini-review: Vandersteen/Magnepan/Paradigm

**Otto** · **11-22-06, 10:19 AM**

So my wife and I went to Bradford's Hi-Fi in Eugene, Oregon today. After having my DefTechs for a year and a half, I've grown tired of their brassy top end.

We listened to:

Vandersteen 3A Signature ($3,500)
Magnepan 1.6 QR ($1,800)
Paradigm Studio 100 ($2,000+ IIRC)

I didn't have any music with me, so we only listened to Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon" Track 1 = "Breathe". A good CD with some side to side effects and a decent recording. We listened to the same track across all speakers, although they were set up in different rooms, with different electronics. We listened to them in the order listed above.

Quick review -- Vandersteens sounded open, effortless, uncongested and full. Bass was complete, tight and present. Very nice. Very nice. Van didn't think they were "too ugly", althought that was definitely my concern coming in. Downside = probably too expensive, at least at their list price.

Magnepans were more harsh and bright -- the kind of thing I'm trying to get away from in the DefTechs. Van noticed it immediately, and we probably made it through only half the track before we knew the Vandersteens were better for us. They might image wonderfully, and I'd give them another shot. On the other hand, the Vandersteens also image wonderfully.

The Paradigms were disappointing. I would describe them as very boxy and somewhat congested at medium-high volumes. I'm not sure we made it half way through the track this time. I don't know if it was setup, room or electronics (Rotel), but the Paradigms downright sucked compared to the other two.

We went back to the Vandersteens and again agreed that they were the preferred speaker of the three.

So, we were kind of time crunched, and we didn't have a variety of material. As noted above, all associated electronics were different, but I'm going to assume that there isn't a ton of variation there (it was all nice stuff - Rotel, Rogue, not sure what was driving the Maggies). The absolute best part of it was that my wife really and truly heard a difference. She was done with the Maggies and Paradigms right away, and came back to the Vandersteens and said "yeah!"

Now, the Vandersteens cost roughly 2x of the others, but they are definitely findable for ~<50% off list when used. Also the 3A Sigs are the big brothers of the 2Ce, and I'd definitely give those a serious listen at their $1,435 (IIRC) list price (easy to find for <$1K used). If it's to do with 10 or 20 Hz of bass extension, all else being equal, I can live with the 2Ce. I guess I can also live with "ugly" if I have to.

For what it's worth, I believe that the Maggies have methods to tame the high end (inserting resistors in series), and the Vandersteens have potentiometers on the back, that will tweak tweeters and mids by +/- 3 dB (we were listening at +/-0). I really like this option. I'll also throw in that I owned the Magnepan MMG for a few years, about six years ago. I always liked them, but they didn't have enough dynamism for me. I figured I could get that dynamism by going to the bigger brothers, but I didn't like the top end.

I look forward to going speaker shopping when I get back to Colorado. I'm definitely going to get new speakers -- hopefully before xmas.

Here's a short list of speakers to audition:

Triangle
Usher
Sonus Faber
B&W 700 Series (if I can find them! Seems like it's always 600 and 800 series that are on display)
Thiel (spendy for the center/rears?)

I'm also looking for further suggestions. Per my other thread, I've recently listened to Vienna Acoustics (will probably get too expensive for what I like -- their $2,800/pair model didn't cut it at volume) and the Martin Logan Clarity (nice, will have to listen again). So suggest away! Looking for smooth, detailed and laid back. I'm definitely into the music side of it, and I believe that the movie side of it will follow.

Have a good day!

**lcaillo** · **11-22-06, 10:46 AM**

Otto, if you liked the Vand. you might like the Thiels. I have not heard them in a while so I'm not up on their current product, but they were more similar than the others in the past. I had a pair for years. Whatever you do, consider strongly using the same product for the surrounds. Having similar tonal and response characteristics makes a lot of difference in creating a seamless sound field. The Thiels are likely more pricey than you want, though I'd definitely give them a listen.

**JCD** · **11-22-06, 01:57 PM**

My favorite speaker in the higher end stuff right now is Dynaudio.
I think you can find something in the Contour line for the prices you're looking at.

I'd also check out the Martin Logans.

If Meadowlark was still around (I'm pretty sure they went under), I'd say take look at those as well. A friend of mine has a pair and they sound great (to me at least).

Finally, someone supremely brilliant

wrote an article with suggestions for buying speakers. If you haven't, you might wanna take a look.

I'm actually pretty jealous. Auditioning speakers was a lot of fun the last time I went out on the market.

Please keep us updated. I don't think I'd ever get bored of these kinds of posts.

JCD

**Otto** · **11-23-06, 01:54 AM**

Thanks guys. I will put those on the list. I've been listening to Martin Logan Claritys at the local Magnolia, and they sound pretty good. I'll need to listen more and more.

Thiels are also on my short list, and my friend has a pair that he's thinking about selling. I think they are the 1.3s or something like that. I'm currently not familiar with their line, but will check them out. I should be able to listen at whatever lengths to his speakers, and he has nice electronics to go along with them.

Thanks again, and any other comments welcome.

**Otto** · **11-23-06, 01:56 AM**

Hey JCD,

I can't link to that article you included in your post. I want to check it, but I get a link error. Check it and post it again.

Thanks!

**JCD** · **11-24-06, 08:06 PM**

Quote:

Otto wrote:

Hey JCD,

I can't link to that article you included in your post. I want to check it, but I get a link error. Check it and post it again.

Thanks!

Weird.. anyway, here it is again: http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ead.php?t=1140

It's one of the stickied threads in the "home audio speakers" section in case the link is broken again.

JCD

**terry j** · **11-26-06, 06:35 PM**

just found this thread, very interested in what you decide Otto.

JCD, the write you did was top class, and I for one appreciate the obvious time and effort you put into it. Would you mind if I did a link to it at another forum?? Absolutely no probs if you preferred I didn't, only hope that if you don't want me to that it wasn't rude of me to ask!!

lots of love

terry

**Otto** · **11-26-06, 08:05 PM**

Yep, thanks for the link to the other thread. It's a must-read for someone going speaker shopping.

Attempting to further my investigation, I went out today and listened to the following:

B&W 802D, 803, 805, 703, 704 (from about $2,200 to $12,000)
Sonus Faber Cremona, Cremona Monitor, Concerto Domus ($2,800 - $9,000)

I guess it's safe to say that the more expensive speakers are the better sounding speakers (for the most part, and to my ears). I'd not heard the 802D before. Wow. Also, the Sonus Faber Cremona was very, very nice. The Cremona didn't have the bottom end clarity of the 802D, but it was a bit more laid back in the top end. So, yeah, they were nice, but way out of my $2k to $3k range for a pair of main speakers (that's $3k as absolute max - max max max) .

It was hard to go back to the other, lower-priced, yet outstanding, speakers. Still, of those, the ones I came out interested in were the Concerto Domus and the 805. The problem with the Concerto is the bottom end, which I found muddy. Also, they are already discounted to even get into my price range, so I don't expect any more of a discount. Yeah, that bottom end was just kinda tubby.

I liked the 805 as well, and definitely has a more-controlled low end than the Concerto. But, being a bookshelf, it just doesn't have the presence that I want for my mid-largish room -- and for movies!

All-in-all, I still think I can do better with Vandersteen. I'm 99% sure I would take the 3A Signature before either of the above two. I have not yet heard the 2Ce Signature from Vandersteen, but I'm hoping that most of the 3A Sig is there. Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to audition the 3A Sig and the 2Ce Sig side by side. If you know of anyone selling these used, let me know.

**khellandros66** · **11-27-06, 12:47 AM**

Otto if you have a local dealer, check out Triad, their new InRoom GOLD LCR are silky smooth and really a step up from most brands I have heard. I'd take these any day over Definitives best..

~Bob

**JCD** · **11-27-06, 12:41 PM**

Quote:

terry j wrote:

just found this thread, very interested in what you decide Otto.

JCD, the write you did was top class, and I for one appreciate the obvious time and effort you put into it. Would you mind if I did a link to it at another forum?? Absolutely no probs if you preferred I didn't, only hope that if you don't want me to that it wasn't rude of me to ask!!

lots of love

terry

Thanks for the kind words. And I don't care at at all if you link to it in another forum (I have

)

Hope it helps.

JCD

**JCD** · **11-27-06, 12:46 PM**

Quote:

Otto wrote:

All-in-all, I still think I can do better with Vandersteen. I'm 99% sure I would take the 3A Signature before either of the above two. I have not yet heard the 2Ce Signature from Vandersteen, but I'm hoping that most of the 3A Sig is there. Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to audition the 3A Sig and the 2Ce Sig side by side. If you know of anyone selling these used, let me know.

Sig 3A for $1,895
2CE for $950

JCD

**Ayreonaut** · **11-29-06, 06:35 PM**

Aw man, don't buy anything before you finish reviewing the other brands you mentioned!

I was really loooking forward to your impressions of the Triangle speakers.
I've nerver heard them (there's no dealer in my area) but what I read about them had me very interested.

**Otto** · **11-29-06, 06:47 PM**

Oh, no, I won't buy anything till I'm done with the auditions. Tomorrow afternoon is more Vandersteen (2Ce Sig, but no 3A Sig), Linn and whatever else they have at a shop north of us.

Saturday is the big day -- Triangle, Usher, Harbeth, JMLabs/Focal, Tannoy, Totem, Acoustic Energy, Spendor, Paradigm, PSB and who knows what else. We have "appointments" at three shops and will probably hit two others at some point. It may become confusing after a while, and we may not be able to listen to everything, but we're going to do the best we can.

I did contact those two Vandersteen guys linked above. I had been watching Audiogon, but hadn't contacted anyone yet. The 2Ce is gone and the 3A has a couple buyers in front of me, but they could easily disappear. I mean, sometimes "things happen" to guys when there's someone who wants it more. No matter what happens with any of that, I will definitely not make a decision before Saturday night.

**Otto** · **12-03-06, 09:03 AM**

Well, we made it to the shop in Ft. Collins -- a very nice shop indeed. A bit short on time, so we listened to only the Vandersteen 2Ce Sig and the Quattro. The former was powered by a Rotel receiver with 70 WPC, and the latter by a much nicer system, although I'm not sure of the details. The Quatro has built-in subs, so they might have had an easier time with the 70 WPC.

Anyway, both sounded pretty good. The 2Ce was first, and definitely didn't sound as good as the 3A Sig did to me while I was in Oregon. However, there were major differences in the rooms and the associated electronics. They still had that laid back sound, and I enjoyed them. I think the room didn't do them justice, though. It was very large and difficult to fill. They may also have been too much against the back wall. They also sounded a little congested on loud rock music. IIRC, we played the 3A considerably louder, and it was uncongested (using different source material, unfortunately). When playing Breathe from Dark Side of the Moon, the sound was very good, but again, not as full as with the 3A Sig.

The real magic was in the Quattros. They were very nice. Soundstage was outstanding, and there was no harshness anywhere. I didn't really get to spend enough time with them, but it doesn't matter; they are well out of my price range at $7k.

Yesterday, we were to go to Castle Rock and Denver to audition a number of brands. Snow was predicted, and indeed there were some sprinklings. Nonetheless, we headed out, but I-25 south was at a standstill due to accidents from snow and ice remaining from the past few days. There were multiple cars (actually, I think they were all trucks) in the ditch, and cops with lights flashing over what was probably a one or two mile stretch. So we turned around and cancelled the trip. For better or for worse, I don't think we are going to reschedule any time soon.

Due to the change in plans, we returned to the home of the guy that was driving. He has a top-notch system that I would consider to be reference quality. Levinson, BelCanto and the B&W 802D really put on a show. While I would agree with the owner that the room could be a little better, the system was outstanding overall and allowed me to get more familar with a nice system (the room is very good, including room treatments, but there is no right wall. Don't get me wrong by my picking this nit. This is an awesome system and room). The dynamics and level of bass in the 802D are impressive. They reproduce bass very well. If it were a sub creating those frequencies instead of the mains, I would probably think that it's turned up too loud. It kind of adjusted my concept of how much bass should be in the mix. Again, these are unfortunately well out of my price range.

After that, we returned to Mag/BB to re-demo the Martin Logan Clarity. After listening so much to the Vandersteens, the Logans are definitely out. They have a good sound, a different sound. But to me, they are too beamy, and not quite realistic. I also don't think they are set up 100% correctly in that store, but I prefer the Vandersteen 3A Sig.

Final stop was the home of the other guy that was supposed to make the trip (there were three of us in total). He's using a Sunfire preamp, BAT amp and Thiel (CS2.3, I believe). As I understand it, Thiel and Vandersteen are in the minority of manufacturers that maintain both phase and time coherence in their loudspeakers. I don't know if this is what contributed to my liking the Thiels, or if it was something else. They did a disappearing act much like the Vandersteen, and they sounded very good. I though that front to back soundstaging was excellent. It could also have been the room, as it's pretty well set up. The Thiel definitely has a different high end, though. A little more bright than what I'm looking for, and more forward than the Vandersteen. Used, the Thiels could be had for $1,500, and it's definitely not a bad speaker for that price.

So, after all this rambling, have you figured out that I'm going to buy the Vandersteen? I know I said that I was going to audition everything else in the world, and I should. I would tell people to audition everything they can get their hands on as well. But I just don't have the time, especially with the holidays. So I give up. I'll have to check out the Triangles some other time. At the moment, it looks like the 3A Sig that JCD linked me to above is going to be the deal for $2k shipped (with FedEx!). The deal could still fall apart, of course, but that's the plan, and I'm excited about it. To me, it will be a clear upgrade from my Definitives, and it should prompt me to listen to more 2-ch music (an excellent relaxer for me). Besides, if I heard everything out there and knew that I had the end-all, be-all speaker for me, I wouldn't have anything to audition in a couple years!

**Matt34** · **12-03-06, 09:54 AM**

Great post! I haven't heard the Van's before but I did get to try the ML Clarity's and they were much better than the Def Tech, Vienna and Klipsch Ref. at the local Magnolia. I really need to start asking around and see if Tucson has other dealers to try out some different brands.

**Otto** · **12-16-06, 10:51 AM**

Hi again,

Well, like I posted above, I was "trying to buy" the Vandersteen 3A Signature that JCD linked me to at audiogon. The deal went through and I am now the proud new owner of these speakers.

I got them set up last night. Without getting out a tape measure, I set them up in somewhat reasonable positions. They sound very good. I am going to be playing around with placement over the weekend, I'm sure. But the initial sound is very warm and involving, very present. The Vandersteen manual is rather detailed about placement and set up, so, time permitting, I will be getting out the tape measure. My wife is so excited.

I'm current using an 80 WPC Denon receiver as an amp. My Sunfire Cinema Grand is still being repaired after UPS smashed it up. It supposed to be back Monday, so I'm looking forward to having more power to drive these guys with.

I'll probably post a full review after a week or two of listening.

**Sonnie** · **12-16-06, 11:16 AM**

Congratulations... and looking forward to your review as well....

**Adz** · **12-30-06, 06:57 PM**

JCD,

Great write-up. You nailed just about everything -- straightforward, fun and easy to read. Throw Pioneer (Elite) into the supreme league of most popular mid-fi receivers you listed. Thread was closed so I couldn't post that there.

**Adz** · **12-30-06, 07:02 PM**

Otto,

Great feedback. Did you ever get to try Usher? They have built remarkable speaker lines at great price points, and while just coming into its own in the U.S. (much more wll-known in Europe and especially Asia), they have garnered some of the most impressive reviews I have read in Secrets' online reviews.

**Otto** · **12-30-06, 10:02 PM**

Hey Adz,

You know, I did not get to hear the Usher. I really wanted to, and still, when I see the ads in the magazines, I slightly regret that I did not. I was also really interested in the Triangles. We had planned it all out for a Saturday trip to hit three or four shops. We were leaving about 8 am or so, in a light snow, and I asked the other two -- do you guys have ANY doubt in your mind that we will be home later than 2pm? They both looked at me and, in unison, said "YES!" That was my first inkling of an idea that we might be in trouble, as my wife and I were hosting two other couples at 4pm and I absolutely had to be home by 2. We headed out nonetheless, and I-25 was backed up with crashes and cops all over the place. We turned around and gave up. We decided not to reschedule the trip because of the holidays and everything. I went ahead with the 3A Sig purchase even though I didn't get to hear some of the speakers I had on my list to audition.

Even though I have those minor regrets, I don't think I made a bad choice. I was listening today, if only for 30 minutes, and the Vandersteens are quite the performer. I still plan on writing more of a full review, but I want to listen to a couple more reference systems first -- perhaps the 802D system I described above, and a friend should be receiving the Sonus Faber Amati next week. I would like to compare my speakers to those (of course, rooms and electronics will differ, but I hope to get a glimpse). The MSRP on either of those speakers is at least 3x of the 3A Sig, so I don't really expect to compete, but it will give me a reference point. Soon...

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