Centre speaker upgrade

[Hakka]

I currently have B&W603 mains, 602 surrounds, 601 surround back and a CC6 centre speaker. These are all series 1 speakers. I want to upgrade to the LCR600 centre but I cannot find a second hand series 1 speaker, only a new series 3 (different tweeter and midrange drivers). Has anyone had any experience mixing the series 1 and series 3?

Hakka

Let me take a wild guess, what does the tone sound like when sending the pink noise from left centre and right a bit off in the centre with the B&W CC6?

By the way how long have had it the B&W CC6 for?

The proper way around this has been the use of matching fronts, there is no dispute over this matter you what perfect sound from the fronts then you have to do it like cinemas matching fronts that’s how it’s been since 1940 with Disney’s Fantasia!

What is the size of you room mate?

Well I’ve done a bit of searching and from what I have found this is what your using mate, despite the colour that’s not a sound issue. The whole use of the surrounds here is wrong mate, they should all be matching going around the room, you will never see a dubbing stage or cinema doing this, and sure not in my home cinema where all the surrounds are matching.



B&W 603

44Hz - 22kHz ± 3dB on reference axis
90dB spl (2.83V 1m)
25W - 150W into 8 ohms on unclipped programme
8 ohms (minimum 3.0 ohms)



B&W CC6

25w-120W
78Hz-20KHz ±3db
8Ω (min 5Ω)
89db (spl 2.83v 1m)




B&W 602

90dB spl (2.83V 1m)
52Hz - 20kHz ± 3dB
8 ohms (minimum 4.3 ohms)



B&W 601 rears

88dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
60Hz - 22kHz ± 3dB
8 ohms (minimum 3.0 ohms)

[Hakka]

JBL-4645 wrote:

Hakka

The proper way around this has been the use of matching fronts, there is no dispute over this matter you what perfect sound from the fronts then you have to do it like cinemas matching fronts that’s how it’s been since 1940 with Disney’s Fantasia!

Not an option for me.

JBL-4645 wrote:

Hakka

The whole use of the surrounds here is wrong mate.

I'm interested in upgrading my centre not my surrounds.


The main issue I have with the CC6 is when I crank the volume up it seems to sound harsh whereas the other speakers dont, I think the midrange drivers are just too small. B&W class the LCR600 as a tonal match to the DM603s, the question I'm asking is did that tonal character change much between series 1 and series 3?

Hakka

LOL, Well do away with the misses and then it will be an option mate!

Mate I’ve been running matching fronts now for 16 years, and I wouldn’t change it for a XXXX for anything else mate.

The surrounds then at least match them all around, mate you’ll have no idea what it will sound like it will knock your soaks off mate, match the B&W 602 for the sides and rears!

Anyway the size of the room mate and do you have any pictures?

Well if you match the center with a B&W 602 and change the left and right for B&W 602, mate you won’t regret it.

Let me guess the pink noise sound like this from left centre and right Hiss hiss Hiss! Am I right I have a friend whose running the B&W 602 and B&W CC6 and the “B&W CC6” sound dreadful! It’s impossible to EQ unless he has matching amplifies with EQ and does away with the internal amplification, what a pointless thing it is this home cinema market!

PS. So I take it you don’t what to take the chance of matching the fronts and having them all at the same height, I mean that is the whole point about home cinema, yes a lot of people have forgotten what the meaning is it’s like lost between a dozen home cinema magazines that have misinterpreted it for years now!

And the poor ole paying consumer has brought there lies like it’s the norm!

That is not how the center channel should look, but hell why not have three matching centre channel loudspeakers, at least the sound will be timbre matched get the picture. But some of them have poor frequency response that doesn’t help reproducing the lows in the centre channel it’s not just for dialogue you know sound effects also play a paramount role.

[Hakka]

The missus isn't the problem I just can't fit another 603 across the front unless I lay it on its side on the equipment rack but that would leave the tweeter way off centre. Thats why I'm looking at the LCR600.

As far as the surrounds go, i can't tell any difference between the 601 and 602, they use the same tweeter, the 602 has a 1/2 inch bigger midrange driver. I have them crossed over at 80hz, so the extra extension isn't a factor. I'm pretty sure if I upgraded the surround backs to 602s I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. An upgraded centre would be a different story altogether.

The room isn't very big, I don't have the measurements but here's a pic.

Hakka

Sorry mate was talking on MSN via voice!

Great picture mate!

I’d say the width is less than 9 feet maybe 8?

Well I can see what you have done for the sides and front good one mate.

Place the centre channel up against the wall the frequency response will increase slightly, use the RTA and the SPL db meter to verify the difference when using a (spot frequency).

Looking and editing more text, just keeps me thinking mate, I’d say you’ve got very limited space behind the sofa?

Hakka

Well the ole pc is lagging here tonight and my thinking power is going at warp speed mate, bugger I need a faster pc!

Well the size is only marginally smaller than mine, but you can see how far I’ve taken mine and it would appear possible, if I can only see a way for you to get a matching set of fronts, the



I’d sick three B&W 602 across the front and keep the B&W for something else a little bonus maybe another room for just plain ole stereo only! But you need matching fronts. Move or reposition the screen, a perforated screen with a baffle wall made for the B&W 602 placed 2/3 of the screen height bring the screen down a bit lower.



Move the sofa back a bit further it might be possible to fit the SVS into the baffle wall, with absorbent materiel for high frequency covering the baffle wall to stop the HF bouncing off the screen!



Play Titanic, Arachnophobia, X-Men III and chances are the centre channel the B&W CC6 will be missing something like the (robotic head falling to the ground) on the centre channel only at the beginning of X-Men III or the submersible at the of beginning Titanic, or Arachnophobia the opening credits is very deep in the centre channel very deep!


Tell you what mate, why not connect one of the B&W 603 up to the centre channel loudspeakers or one of the B&W 601 or 602, and you’ll hear the difference!

[Hakka]

JBL-4645 wrote:

Hakka
Looking and editing more text, just keeps me thinking mate, I’d say you’ve got very limited space behind the sofa?

Yeah, I can reach back and touch the back wall while sitting on the sofa.


Just looking at your pic of your matching fronts, the left and right speakers are very close to the corners, whereas the centre is not. I would imagine you get a varied frquency response between them due to the corner loading?

Its a bit hard to tell from the pics but my room might be a bit wider than yours, my screen is 7ft wide.

Hakka

The high frequencies don’t sound like there passing over you do they?

You could do something with some speakers brackets and angle them downwards, but that still won’t help you’re too close to them, lower the height and using separate amplification with equalizers to adjust the frequency so that it won’t drill a hold though your head on the middle and high frequencies it’s doable mate.

Still I like the rather tight layout.

Yes, yes, yes, place them down lower and get a two stereo amplifiers two graphic equalizers and adjust the level to sound as if they where distant from you by pulling back on the frequencies, the low end being close to you will suck you into the worm hole in Contact! Get the picture mate! I think help is at hand here mate.

If I where I where mate and had two of each, I’d solve this matter in a few hours easy!

[Hakka]

The surrounds sound pretty good as they are. Wall mounting is not an option - I'm living in a rental property at the moment. Having them not pointed towards my head seems to help diffuse the surround effect - it seems more enveloping than when I had them at ear height aimed at my head.
The 602s have a vertical dipersion arc of 10 degrees, so I must be losing a little bit of HF response at my listening position from the 4 surrounds. As far as the surrounds 'drilling a hole in my head', definately not, this system is very easy to listen to at very high volume (except for the centre speaker).

[Hakka]

JBL-4645 wrote:

Hakka


Yes, yes, yes, place them down lower and get a two stereo amplifiers two graphic equalizers and adjust the level to sound as if they where distant from you by pulling back on the frequencies, the low end being close to you will suck you into the worm hole in Contact! Get the picture mate! I think help is at hand here mate.

Already running separate power amps, as for graphic equalizers I wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot stick, unless it was an audessyEQ built into the pre/pro. (subwoofer channel is a different story).
I'm curious how you would eq a speaker to make it sound 'more distant'?

Hakka

Well I’ve looked this whole thing over from the level of the centre channel to where it gets masked acoustically by the left and right with the surrounds turned off! There is a lot that masks the centre channel and it takes a bit of technique to get all working nicely.

My fronts are all balanced with audio limiters, this helps to tame loud sounds that will generally mask the centre channel making it virtual impossible to hear softer sounds even thou they might appear to you as sounding great and fantastic, I’ll bet you ten dollars mate you cant hear Neil McCauley played by Robert De Niro in Heat running across the airports runway strip with a DC-10 placed on the left and right channels only!

And placed in the centre channel is his breathing panting and footsteps only!

That’s detail I can hear quite easily on mine, and it can be the same with you as well mate, that’s my secret and no amount of room treatment will make a scarp of difference, although it will make the room sound a little less reverberant.

Hakka

Mate, are you off your trolley, what type, do you think they use in the Dolby CP units, they sure sound great mate! 1/3 octave and very little goes wrong with them, mate you must be more paranoid than me!

That unit you mentioned costs an arm and leg, it’s a tasty unit but auto EQ is a poor mans lazy approach, I’ve had an auto EQ before and it added more top end and some peaks on the low end that needed cutting back, boasting the low end is bad! The last thing I don’t what hear is the bass mid or the sub bottoming out due to negligence of the equipment.

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Hakka wrote:

I'm curious how you would eq a speaker to make it sound 'more distant'?

Well, high frequencies attenuate with distance, so that’s probably what he meant. However, it apparently escaped his notice that you get the same effect with the rears up high and firing overhead like you have them. I.e., the hard angle from the tweeter to your ears will reduce the highs at the listening location.

Already running separate power amps, as for graphic equalizers I wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot stick, unless it was an audessyEQ built into the pre/pro.

You might check into the discontinued AudioControl C-131 1/3-octave EQ, IMO one of the finest equalizers ever made specifically for home use. AudioControl published specs for the C-131 as –112dB unweighted noise floor, THD of 0.002%, and frequency response of 10Hz to 100kHz , ±0.2 dB - audiophile specs by any standard. Small wonder that it adds absolutely no noise to most systems, considering that most receivers these days have noise specs of -100 dB or less, and only that good in Direct mode.

I once did a head-to-head between the C-131 and an Ashly EQ, which is highly regarded in professional circles, and the AudioControl blew it away: Audibly less residual noise, quieter filters at boost, and even more accurate face markings. The C-131 also specs significantly better than top-flight pro EQs like BSS and Klark Teknik, the latter costing three times more.

Unfortunately the C-131 never sold well, as most audiophiles don’t appreciate a first-class equalizer ad/or were unwilling to pay $500 per channel for them, so it was discontinued a few years ago. However, they do show up on eBay from time to time, typically selling for under $300 – a bargain. In lieu of the C-131, AudioControl also made a couple of multi-channel home theater EQs the Bijou or Rialto, which offer comparable performance to the C-131.

Sorry to hijack your thread like this, but I think Mr. JBL succeeded in doing that a long time ago.

Regards,
Wayne

[Hakka]

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

You might check into the discontinued AudioControl C-131 1/3-octave EQ, IMO one of the finest equalizers ever made specifically for home use. AudioControl published specs for the C-131 as –112dB unweighted noise floor, THD of 0.002%, and frequency response of 10Hz to 100kHz , ±0.2 dB - audiophile specs by any standard. Small wonder that it adds absolutely no noise to most systems, considering that most receivers these days have noise specs of -100 dB or less, and only that good in Direct mode.

Thnaks for the info Wayne, but I'm realy not interested in adding EQ to my full range channels, especially at $500 perchannel x 7 channels. It was JBL that decided I needed EQs. I think I'll keep playing around with room treatments for now.

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

Sorry to hijack your thread like this, but I think Mr. JBL succeeded in doing that a long time ago.

Regards,
Wayne

Yes he certainly did.

Harry.

[Darren]

I know you probably aren't looking to do anything with your surrounds but in a small room these would be amazing: http://www.gr-research.com/kits/av1rs.shtm I have them for my rear surrounds in a 20 X 18' room and they improved upon my direct radiating rear surrounds dramatically. When I go with side surrounds I'll be getting two more. I might get a reputation as a GR-Research pusher but they are wonderful designs.

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Hakka wrote:

Thnaks for the info Wayne, but I'm realy not interested in adding EQ to my full range channels, especially at $500 perchannel x 7 channels. It was JBL that decided I needed EQs.

Yes I know – the point was that there are at least a few excellent EQs available that are cheaper than the Audyssey.

Regards,
Wayne

[Ayreonaut]

Back to the original question...

Hakka wrote:

Has anyone had any experience mixing the series 1 and series 3?

You could contact B&W and ask their opinion, but really you should audition a series three from the dealer and try it in your room. That is the only way that you'll know for sure.

[Hakka]

In home demo's are hard for me as my nearest B&W dealer is a two hour drive.

I came acrossa guy in oz that has the same speakers as me - series 1 - with a series 3 lcr600. He also has a cc6 to compare it with. Tonal match is supposedly a lot better between the lcr600 and the 603s than it is between the cc6 and 603s. He also thinks it is a much better speaker all round than the CC6.
Now I just have to find a cheap one.