New system: Klipsch, Paradigm, B&W, or SVS?

[killerdusty]

New to HTS and looking for some experienced perspectives:

I will soon be pulling the trigger on a new HT system. The room's dimensions are 18.5 x 19.5 x around 20' high and will continue to serve as the home's main living room / event room - not a dedicated HT.

The components pretty much locked in place are the Denon 4308CI receiver, Pioneer Kuro 5080, and the SVS PC-Ultra sub.

The speakers have been narrowed down to a short list, but I am looking to hear any "you may not have heard . . ." type advice in terms of equipment compatibility, etc. that my have flown under my radar. The finalists are:

Klipsch RF-63 based system (http://www.klipsch.com/products/deta...er-system.aspx)
Paradigm (Studio 60 fronts, CC-590 centers, ADP-590 surrounds)
SV Sound MTS-01 system
B&W 683 Theater System (http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/displa...fid=2352&sc=ht)

I realize the ultimate answer is "Go listen to them," and I'll be doing that with the speakers (except, obviously, for the SVS system, not yet released). However, I doubt I'll run into this particular combination of components in a local showroom, so any insights folks have as to which components may or may not play well together would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
David

[nova]

So,... based on your Pioneer and Denon combo I take it you are budgeting about 10K - 15K for speakers? If so, I think you can do better than your narrowed list. If not,... you may want to re-think your budget,... otherwise,... just my opinion, but I think you are a little heavy on the receiver and a bit much on the monitor, not enough on the speakers. Probably good on the sub though .

Not trying to be rude, so please don't take it that way,... I just think that a balanced system is much more enjoyable. IMO too many people spend way too much on the monitor and receiver, and not nearly enough on the speakers.

As for a list of speakers you may not have heard;

RBH Sound http://www.rbhsound.com/
Triad http://www.triadspeakers.com/
James Loudspeakers http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/
Salk Sound http://www.salksound.com/
Opera http://www.operaloudspeakers.com/

[Sonnie]

Hi David and welcome to the Shack!

While it's true your budget isn't the general recommended ratio, I'd not be the least bit concerned with putting any of those speakers in my system regardless of the other components cost. Those are all very fine speakers.

To tell ya the truth, I'd have a hard time choosing between those.

I might would toss in the PSB Platinum series to consider.

[nova]

I agree, nuthin' wrong with any of your choices, and now that I've taken a closer look at that B&W package I realize my initial assessment was wrong! You do have a better balance than I though. I really don't see where any of them would have a "problem playing together", I'd probably lean toward the B&W's.

The only other suggestion I would have aside from listening to them is; look at the quality of the components ie: crossovers, build quality of the cabinets, binding posts, surround material and where it meets the cone, etc. etc.

[JCD]

So, like everyone else, I think you'd be well served by cutting back a little on the electronics portion of your system. For example, unless there is some feature you're looking for in the 4308ci, I bet you'd be just as happy with the 2808ci.. and you'd have an extra $1,300 in your pocket.

I think you've picked some great speakers there. Telling you which is better is like telling someone what kind of food tastes best. That being said, of the brands you have listed there, I generally like the Paradigms (at the same price point) best. With the exception of the SVS -- I haven't heard those yet, but everything I've heard about their other speakers has been nothing but amazed praise. The tweeter that they're going to be using in those speakers is top TOP notch -- I think it's going to be a home run.

Some more advice I'll give is that -- again, my preference -- I'd go with direct firing (i.e., regular) speakers as opposed to di or bi poles like the ADP's you have listed. For example, going with the Paradigms, I'd seriously consider going with Studio 20's or Studio 40's all around (which ever you prefer), even for the center (see here for our discussions about toppled speakers).

Finally, if you haven't seen it, here is someone's idea about how to audition speakers.. he's a crackpot , but you may get something useful out of it.

JCD

[killerdusty]

Mark-

No offense taken at all. My approach is to gather all the info / opinion I can, shake it up with what I see and hear, and see what emerges. The setup is a bit top-heavy, but in my case that may work with the audience most likely to be hearing it (me, wife, four kids < 14). The little guys are more mesmerized by the video than the sound, and I'll certainly be getting decent sound out of any of these setups, if not world-class.

David

[joetama]

First in my opinion the B&W would be the best ones on that list. Just about everyone I know who has listened to them has been amazed...

But, the best thing you can do is listen to them all. And listen to them for a while with a variety of music. Find the one that you like the best.

[Sonnie]

Hey David... what did you end up going with?

[killerdusty]

B & W

[Sonnie]

How about a review?

[Rex]

killerdusty wrote:

New to HTS and looking for some experienced perspectives:

I will soon be pulling the trigger on a new HT system. The room's dimensions are 18.5 x 19.5 x around 20' high and will continue to serve as the home's main living room / event room - not a dedicated HT.

The components pretty much locked in place are the Denon 4308CI receiver, Pioneer Kuro 5080, and the SVS PC-Ultra sub.

The speakers have been narrowed down to a short list, but I am looking to hear any "you may not have heard . . ." type advice in terms of equipment compatibility, etc. that my have flown under my radar. The finalists are:

Klipsch RF-63 based system (http://www.klipsch.com/products/deta...er-system.aspx)
Paradigm (Studio 60 fronts, CC-590 centers, ADP-590 surrounds)
SV Sound MTS-01 system
B&W 683 Theater System (http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/displa...fid=2352&sc=ht)

I realize the ultimate answer is "Go listen to them," and I'll be doing that with the speakers (except, obviously, for the SVS system, not yet released). However, I doubt I'll run into this particular combination of components in a local showroom, so any insights folks have as to which components may or may not play well together would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
David

David -

No matter what you select, it will be YOUR compromise. Once you buy it and hook it up, the myriad of specifications will fade and you'll be enjoying your system.

As an aside, I am a long-term reader of Audiophile. There are people with golden ears that swear to hear differences between cables -- although double-blind tests fail to support this. There are also folks that insist on vinyl, and that it must be played on a Grand Prix Audio Monaco turntable -- at only $19,500.

[MatrixDweller]

JCD wrote:

So, like everyone else, I think you'd be well served by cutting back a little on the electronics portion of your system. For example, unless there is some feature you're looking for in the 4308ci, I bet you'd be just as happy with the 2808ci.. and you'd have an extra $1,300 in your pocket.

The 2808 is a big step down. The differences between the 3808 and the 4308 are very small but the 2808 is missing some of the goodies, like network capability, USB, Audyssey MultEQ XT, more than 2 HDMI inputs, better DACS, Denon Link, HDCD, AL24 processing on all channels, etc. For the price of the 4308 I'd investigate going with separates.

I would go with the 3808ci and use the extra money to go with Klipsch RF83's, RC64, and RS62's. Klipsch speakers are very efficient to they will go loud even with minimal wattage.

[HClarkx]

David,

I hope you are listening to your system by now, but if not, I agree with others, the 3808CI is as low as you want to go unless you have a perfect listening room. The Audyssey Pro (installer based) system will improve even a near perfect room. Also, it will make $5K speakers sound like $10K speakers while also fixing room problems. You'll also fall in love with the Dynamic EQ that the installer can enable for you in the 3808CI.

HClarkx

[thewire]

I agree you will want that equalizer. I am waiting on a preamp by Denon that isn't released yet so I can have one. I hope it is under or near 2k. Patience plays a key role.

[HClarkx]

thewire wrote:

I agree you will want that equalizer. I am waiting on a preamp by Denon that isn't released yet so I can have one. I hope it is under or near 2k. Patience plays a key role.

Amen. I'd like to have the equivalent of the Sound EQ and Dynamic EQ in a good preamp and that's surely coming, but I wonder if such a preamp won't be far more costly than, say, a Denon 3808CI which makes a very capable preamp if you don't mind a few watts going into idling amps (I haven't seen anything in the manual about turning them off).

Harrison (HClarkx)

[thewire]

HClarkx wrote:

Amen. I'd like to have the equivalent of the Sound EQ and Dynamic EQ in a good preamp and that's surely coming, but I wonder if such a preamp won't be far more costly than, say, a Denon 3808CI which makes a very capable preamp if you don't mind a few watts going into idling amps (I haven't seen anything in the manual about turning them off).

Harrison (HClarkx)

I need a preamp so that I can use the equalizer with my current receiver and amps in a bi-amp configuration. I will do whatever it takes to keep my bi-amp setup. The only way the equalizer should work properly for me personally in my own theory that I have not yet had any insight from others as of yet is to use the HDMI in on the preamp/equalizer, output that to my receiver inputs which in turn uses it's own amps and sends out another preamp to my amplifiers. Hence the name thewire. The only Denon I see with the THX certification that is HDMI I see is the big expensive one and I don't think it even has HDMI 1.3. I am just sort of hoping the preamp may be THX or I will be going with something different regardless of the price. Probably a Marantz or Integra.

Now if there were receiver that was THX, HDMI 1.3, and works with both the equalizer (no issues) and the preouts at the same time, then I am working overtime and doing my part at the auction. I sure wish somebody could confirm that for the Marantz.

My apologies to the OP if it seems I am hijacking the thread I thought I should clarify my situation since the statement was addressed to me.

[HClarkx]

thewire wrote:

I need a preamp so that I can use the equalizer with my current receiver and amps in a bi-amp configuration. I will do whatever it takes to keep my bi-amp setup. The only way the equalizer should work properly for me personally in my own theory that I have not yet had any insight from others as of yet is to use the HDMI in on the preamp/equalizer, output that to my receiver inputs which in turn uses it's own amps and sends out another preamp to my amplifiers. Hence the name thewire. The only Denon I see with the THX certification that is HDMI I see is the big expensive one and I don't think it even has HDMI 1.3. I am just sort of hoping the preamp may be THX or I will be going with something different regardless of the price. Probably a Marantz or Integra.

Now if there were receiver that was THX, HDMI 1.3, and works with both the equalizer (no issues) and the preouts at the same time, then I am working overtime and doing my part at the auction. I sure wish somebody could confirm that for the Marantz.

My apologies to the OP if it seems I am hijacking the thread I thought I should clarify my situation since the statement was addressed to me.

We might be hijacking the thread here, but the thread is "new systems" and that's what we are discussing ... so maybe we are okay for now.

Personally, I've never been concerned about THX. I'm concerned about sound quality and that doesn't require THX. To me THX certification is there to help those that want to buy off-the-shelf with little or no research or product knowledge. There is plenty of good equipment out there that is equal to or better than the THX spec, but isn't THX because the maker wanted to get to market without the time and expense of THX certification. But, if you are more comfortable with THX equipment, that's fine. It does reduce your risk of buying something that doesn't meet your expectations.

I'm not sure I followed your outline of your need for a preamp. Maybe this will help. The pre-outs on something like the Denon 3808CI simply bypass the amps in the 3808CI. All equalization for speaker and room correction and the Dynamic EQ capability and what have you are still available. So, it is a preamp with amps included but used optionally. I anticipate using the 3808CI with the pre-outs connected to my Audyssey Sound EQ and it feeding my amps. I will engage the 3808CI's MultEQ XT and Dynamic EQ and bypass the Sound EQ for movies and for music I will bypass the MultEQ XT and Dynamic EQ in the 3808CI and engage the outboard Sound EQ. That will give me the higher resolution of the Sound EQ for music and the Dynamic EQ and MultEQ XT for movies ... all in one system. (The Sound EQ doesn't do Dynamic EQ, and probably never will because it does not know what volume the receiver is set at).

Or I could wait for a pre-pro with Dynamic EQ and the higher resolution of the Sound EQ ..... and hope it's within my budget. I think i see your dilemma. Kludge something together or wait for the proper product.

Harrison (HClark)

[thewire]

Yep if one of those devices had 16 outputs instead of 8 I would be happy. The THX certification I appreciate for the simple reason that it insures to me that the product is not falsely advertising quality but I am aware there is better. I like the fact that amps, speaker connects anything has that on them but there are products I will never buy with the THX logo. It is just a simple means of me to feel secure oh..and I like the history behind it etc. My greatgrandfather gave MGM money to get started (which they in turn did not return the favor by giving interest on the loan as a friendly thank you) but then here comes Star Wars and other cool things out of it so it kind of has sentimental value as well.

[thxgoon]

I agree on the THX thing, I'm a huge advocate of it and wish they had stuck to there guns to improving standardization, performance and user friendliness rather than veering off into pc and car audio markets.

As for the built in EQ - I'd shop for this with a grain of salt. The eq's are convinient for ease of setup but they don't always spit out accurate results so you will want to check the settings before moving on. For example, it might set a speaker with extension to 20hz as a 'small' speaker because of a room null or the like. Additionally it can set crossover points that might be good for the receiver but are not proper for your system. This is especially important in sub sat systems that have been designed with a particular crossover in mind ie thx speakers. Additionally it has been my experience with all of the eq's I've used (Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Denon, Sony) that the end result is rarely 'accurate'. Usually the response is veered towrad the brighter end of the spectrum. I have never seen one of these systems actually roll off the high end - even with bright speakers like Klpisch.

A better solution IMHO, is to use a program like REW and use a mic that has been calibrated to measure the response at various seating positions and work out an eq solution from the program. Buy a receiver that will allow manual parametric eq inputs and program it in manually.

Have you decided on speakers yet? Klipsch and B&W are at almost opposite ends of the spectrum as far as sound character. Your best bet if you can is to listen to as many as you can and bring your own demo material. Good luck and have fun!

[HClarkx]

thxgoon wrote:

I agree on the THX thing, I'm a huge advocate of it and wish they had stuck to there guns to improving standardization, performance and user friendliness rather than veering off into pc and car audio markets.

As for the built in EQ - I'd shop for this with a grain of salt. The eq's are convinient for ease of setup but they don't always spit out accurate results so you will want to check the settings before moving on. For example, it might set a speaker with extension to 20hz as a 'small' speaker because of a room null or the like. Additionally it can set crossover points that might be good for the receiver but are not proper for your system. This is especially important in sub sat systems that have been designed with a particular crossover in mind ie thx speakers. Additionally it has been my experience with all of the eq's I've used (Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Denon, Sony) that the end result is rarely 'accurate'. Usually the response is veered towrad the brighter end of the spectrum. I have never seen one of these systems actually roll off the high end - even with bright speakers like Klpisch.

A better solution IMHO, is to use a program like REW and use a mic that has been calibrated to measure the response at various seating positions and work out an eq solution from the program. Buy a receiver that will allow manual parametric eq inputs and program it in manually.

Have you decided on speakers yet? Klipsch and B&W are at almost opposite ends of the spectrum as far as sound character. Your best bet if you can is to listen to as many as you can and bring your own demo material. Good luck and have fun!

THX certainly does fill a need, at least insofar as equipment quality is concerned. That said, I would stack my almost totally non-THX system against any fully THX system. However, putting together a good non-THX system does take some research and maybe a bit of luck.

I've had better luck with EQ, maybe because I'm using the Audyssey SoundEQ. I think if it said I should cross over a full-range speaker at 80 Hz because of a null at 40 Hz, I'd do it. No EQ can fix a null and the sub presumably does not exhibit that null and so solves the null problem nicely.

I do have the proverbial "bright" Klipsh speakers (RF-7), but the SoundEQ has several high-end roll-off contours that tame them nicely (with help from a large room). I also had to upgrade my CD DAC ... The Klipsh speakers showed harshness that I at first blamed on the speakers. With the better performing DAC the Klipsh are almost silky smooth. With the help of the better DAC and the EQ, they are silky smooth.

You mention the REW software. I didn't find anything on it via Google. Do you have a reference? I'm assuming that it examines both magnitude and phase (or "timing") if it can compete with the better EQ systems, especially in smoothing out the transition to the sub and fixing less than ideal crossovers in speakers and such.

But, do some receiver EQ's allow you to adjust both gain and timing across multiple bands? Maybe I need to move a bit upscale to find such features. What pre-pro or receiver would you recommend for this?

I stress timing because I've seen reviews of my SoundEQ that showed only modestly improved frequency response (i.e., it wasn't that bad to start with) but judged it to significantly improve sound quality. I’ve witnessed this in my own system. I attributed the improvement to timing corrections across the 20 to 20kHz spectrum (but mostly below 2 or 3 kHz where phase is more important). I know the FIR filters also improve room transient response and maybe that's part of it to.

As to speaker testing, in-home testing should be the final determinant (i.e., with exchange privileges). I’d also suggest comparing speakers in the store or at home with any EQ turned off. A good EQ can make a mediocre speaker sound very good. EQ is most effective when it has a good speaker, or one you like, to start from.

PS: I agree, anyone considering Klipsh should compare them with B&W or BA or such. They aren’t for everyone. In my case I had a 1300 sq ft room (about 15,000 cubic feet) to fill with sound and the RF-7’s were about the only affordable speakers that I thought could do the job (2 x 10” woofers in the mains).

[thxgoon]

REW can be found here.

HClarkx - check your inbox

[HClarkx]

Thanks, I'll take a look. Sounds interesting.

[warpdrive]

Hi there, I'm a big fan of the B&W but I must admit that I also like the Paradigm Studios for HT. I think you makes a good choice with the B&W as there is just something about them that makes them more enjoyable when listening to music. Whether B&W's are actually colored in a way that does that is anolther issue....all I know is that music sounds alive on them more so than the Studios or other speakers that may measure more flat.