Upgrading

[Bob_99]

Having entered the serious side of audio at a later stage in life, I started out to get a really good system (figured it would be a one time thing like the Techniques which I kept for about 20+ years) and did spend quite a bit of time looking around to make my best choice for speakers. However, long story short, I got frustrated and just ended up buying the Polk LSi system which really does sound good and I'm not disappointed with it. But after being on this forum for some time now, I have picked up enough knowledge to see the potential that is out there and like a lot of others, have thought about upgrading. I'm hoping though, that I can get some input from older members as to how much to expect from an upgrade when unfortunately, the human ear tends to lose some of its sensitivity as we grow older. Would I have to do a quantum leap upgrade to notice a worthwhile difference, especially considering that I don't have a dedicated HT room?


Bob

High-end audio components, speakers, etc... are targeted toward audiophiles (music lovers devoted to accurate sound reproduction) that are looking for the Nth degree of sonic refinement in very specific areas of performance.
For typical music lovers with limited critical listening experience, high-end upgrades are largely meaningless in terms of sonics, and are actually quite insane in terms of cost.

For example, some audiophiles will spend upwards of $5,000.00 on a speaker system to get smooth, grain-free treble and highly transparent imaging.
Unless you are listening for, and can appreciate, these characteristics, you might wonder what your 5 grand is getting you, compared to a $1,000.00 speaker system.
For most people, the answer would be "very little".
For audiophiles that prize these attributes, it's "everything".

My advice would be to listen carefully to your system and decide what aspects of the sound are satisfying or unsatisfying to you, before venturing into an upgrade.
All else is not always equal in the world of audio components.

[Bob_99]

My advice would be to listen carefully to your system and decide what aspects of the sound are satisfying or unsatisfying to you,

I think my problem is that without trying a better quality speaker in the room, I'm not sure if I could be more satisfied. I think that your answer was quite on point but I figure I can swing one more upgrade before I retire and I just want to be sure to do it right this time.

Bob

[Sonnie]

I can certainly understand the part about our hearing going downhill with age because mine certainly has... not that I ever did have good listening ears. A few years ago I started having ringing in my ears and had my hearing tested. I can't recall exactly, but one ear was down about 10db from 6,000Hz up and the other down about 20db from 8,000Hz on up. Seems like I'd have to turn up the treble, but I don't think I do, at least no one has ever told me my speakers sound heavy in the high end range.

My experience with speakers may indeed have something to do with my hearing issues, I just don't know for sure, but it would seem reasonable that it would effect it in some way or another. I've owned a lot of different speakers... and I do notice some differences, but nothing has been extreme to me. Other than way back in teh early 90's when I had my Snell B-Minors, I've generally shopped for bargain speakers... best bang for the buck type speakers. A few years ago I decided to take the plunge into what was supposedly the "high-end" of speakers. Granted it was the lower end of the "high-end". I purchased the VMPS RM30's. These speakers have been highly regarded as some of the best sounding speakers, even competing with speakers costing thousands more. They received big time recognition at CES shows and have had some astounding reviews by some of the so-called famous reviewers. Needless to say, I was expecting a vast improvement in sound moving from my PSB Image setup to the VMPS setup. I guess you could say I was fortunate that when the first set came it there was significant shipping damage and VMPS shipped me a new set with several upgrades... on top of the fact I had gotten 25% off of the retail when I bought them. Why was this fortunate? Because I really couldn't tell that much of a difference between for former PSB speaker setup and the VMPS setup. They sounded good, but so did my PSB speakers. I was fortunate to be able to sell the un-boxed replacements with all the upgrades and almost come out without a loss.

Some may say... well, you should have auditioned the speakers prior to spending that much money. Personally I just don't see auditioning speakers anywhere other than in your own listening setup being a viable option. Few manufacturers/dealers allow in-home auditions. You go to the showroom and listen, but you also go from one room to another with totally different setups in those showrooms to compare speakers... and neither of those are remotely close to the setup in your home. Maybe if you could disconnect one set of speakers in the showroom and hook up another set in the same location, it would be a good way to compare the difference in their sound, but it still is not a replica of your listening environment in your home, where you may or may not have the same equipment, room size, acoustic treatments, etc. I also live in hillbilly country... there aren't any places to listen to much of anything around here anyway... unless I want to drive several hours.

So... I'm left with basically fiddling with inexpensive speaker setups because I don't want to get into another situation like the VMPS ordeal. Amazingly, I don't think I've heard a bad speaker yet. In my dedicated room... from PSB to VMPS to JBL to SVS to Boston Acoustics. All inexpensive except the VMPS. If I absolutely had to choose the best sounding to me thus far... it's a close call between the PSB Image setup and the SVS SBS-01 setup. The SVS being the least expensive of them all.

I realize to a lot of people it may seem like a stretch to place any of those inexpensive speakers in the same league with the VMPS speakers... I hear all kinds of things... you didn't have them setup right... they weren't right for your room... you didn't have them tuned properly... blah blah blah. I think it's all hogwash! Either my hearing is really that bad or the speakers just weren't that good or that much better to be worth the extra money they cost. I doubt I'll be attempting another big time upgrade like the VMPS experience, although there are a lot of speakers out there I would love to listen to in my home.

[tonyvdb]

Most if not all big box stores will not allow you to do this but if you have a dedicated high end audio store in your area they will usualy let you borrow a set of speakers to try them at home.
There are lots of excellent quality speakers in the $1000 to $2000 range. B&W has a new line priced right in that range and they sound fantastic. sometime all you need to make your system sound good is a decent sub as putting all the frequencies through your main speakers can be not only hard on your amp but the speakers themselves. By reducing the amount of lows going to them you can free up power that otherwise was lost due to this.

Have a look at this site The worlds most expensive speakers This should open your eyes to how much "some" people are willing to spend.

[Ayreonaut]

I listened to a lot of ported subwoofers, including some pretty expensive ones, and was similarly disappointed with them all. I finally listened to a sealed sub, and it was quite a different animal, a league above, in my ears. Later I built an IB sub, and I was similarly pleased to discover another league above.

Your opinion of loudspeakers may be similar. You might not want more expensive ported box speakers. Audition some speakers of different types - sealed box speakers and open baffle speakers, electrostats, etc. You will find that there are vast differences, and you may find something that you love!

[nova]

I also have pretty bad hearing in the upper frequencies, and funny enough find that some speakers are really hard for me to listen to for very long. I had some Mitsubishi speakers a few years back that were very nice at lower volumes, but at movie volumes I could hardly make it through a film. They had more than enough mid bass punch and a lot of bass, but the highs really tired me out. My upgrade from those (silk dome and poly something or other mid and woof) to my RBH MC-4C was huge. Maybe an oxymoron since the Mitsu's were large towers w/ 8" woofer, 6.5" mid, and 1" soft dome tweeter, and the MC-4C's are a mini bookshelf w/ 4" aluminum mids and a 1" aluminum tweeter. However, they are very enjoyable to listen to and not fatiguing at all. The upgrade from them to the 1266-SE was not as dramatic, much more subtle, other than the pocket book of course.

[Sonnie]

I must say the most drastic difference I've ever heard in a speaker was in a dealers house between the Snell B-Minors and Martin Logan Quest. I wanted the ML Quest so bad I couldn't stand it... they sounded awesome and it was a dramatic difference between the two. The problem at that time was ML didn't have a small matching center or surrounds that would work with my setup and Snell had it all. On top of the fact my wife did not like the size of the ML Quest.

Today... if I had the extra money to give a try with some more expensive speakers... it would be the ML line. But at present, they are way out of my league.

Often, the world-class construction quality and finish of high-end equipment is as much a part of the product cost as the sound quality.
For example, a $1000 B&W tower speaker is not built and finished to the same standards as an $8000 B&W tower.
Does the $8000 B&W sound "8 times as good"? No, probably not.
Does it look/feel "8 times as good"? Yes, without a doubt.
Is an audiophile more likely to be satisfied with the $8000 B&W over long-term? Probably.

If you have access to specialty audio salons in your area, check out the B&W 800 series, Sonus Faber Homage, Vienna Acoustics Reference, Paradigm Signature, Martin Logan, etc...
Pay attention to the finish and construction of these products; this is definitely a bug chunk of what you pay for at this level.

If construction and finish quality is low on your priority list, check out the B&W 683; I haven't demo'd this speaker personally, but there's no doubt in my mind that it represents a very significant technology trickle-down from the expensive 800 series. The finish and construction actually look very good for a speaker in this class.

[JCD]

A few random comments..

1. If you haven't addressed the acoustics in your listening area, I think THAT is where you will get the greatest performance upgrade for your dollar right now. If you listen to a properly treated room you'll understand.
2. re: Auditioning speakers -- I'm going to have to agree to disagree with Sonnie on this one
   I think he has some valid points about how the speakers will sound between the showroom and your room (see 1 above); however, I think that you can still get a sense of what speakers will sound like in your home if you pay attention to the acoustics of the listening room while listening to your music. Admittedly, it's an imperfect system if you can't take the speakers home for an in-home audition, but I think it's still a worthy endeavor. I was lucky when I was in the market last as I was able to take home a couple of Paradigm models and a pair of B&W's.
3. I also will agree with the notion of diminishing returns as you start spending more $$ on speakers. Generally speaking, a 10k speaker will sound better than a 1K speaker, but it WON'T be 10x better.. depending on how you measure "better", it probably won't even be 2 or 3x better. I always refer to the analogy of speakers and wine.
4. Hearing loss as we get older is a sad truth. And the fact that we're male also is to our detriment -- women hear better than men. I'm not sure what the statistics are, but it's sad what we've lost even if we took care of our ears.
5. I will also concur with Sonnie in that being more expensive doesn't always mean they're better. There are ALL kinds of exceptions to that rule.

That's all I got for now.. I'm sure I'll chime in later as idea's pop in to the goo between my ears.

JCD

[Fincave]

I will chip in my two cents worth.

Upgrading can make a huge difference and you do not have to spend masses more than your current speakers. Speakers in a similar price range do sound different and IMO it is a matter of personal taste, technically if you buy new speakers they may not be 'better' but if they sound more pleasing to you that is what matters in the end.

I had JBL XTi80 floorstanders for a couple of years and I really liked them. I however got a bit bored with them, had a bit of money and just wanted something new. I went to several stores and listened to various speakers, some were a lot cheaper than the JBLs and some were five times the price, I listened to some $500 bookshelf speakers and to my ear they sounded better than another brands $1400 bookshelf speakers. I bought neither in the end but ended up buying bookshelf speakers from another store that cost roughly 50% more than the JBL speakers, not a horrendous amount financially but to ME a very good and worthwhile upgrade. (Just my opinion, when comparing floorstanders and bookshelf speakers in a similar price range the bookshelf speakers do tend to sound better if you do not mind giving up some of the bass.) I bought Amphion Argon2's and the difference to me was immense, music had a lot more detail, small things like a finger running up the neck of a guitar could be heard clearly whereas with the JBLs that sound just was not there. I had a lot of fun listening to most of my music and just picking up small nuances that now came through clearly.

Are my new speakers that much better than the old ones? Realistically, probably not, but they do sound different and I prefer the sound and thus the upgrade was very much worth it for me.

Some people may prefer a bright speaker, others a more subdued sound, it does not really matter. In the end you are the one buying the speakers, also the person who is going to listen to them and so it comes back to being a matter of personal taste. I am also not that sure that buying a very accurate speaker is all that important, now before I get shot down for that almost blasphemous comment let me explain why: As I understand it a lot of music is not all that well produced and mixed, obviously it depends on your taste in music. Lets assume that you have a very good ear, do you really want to hear or have a poor recording exposed by very accurate speakers, IMO it will just diminish the listening experience making it less enjoyable, you would however be able to say to friends look how good my speakers are, they make this song sound bad! Case in question, I really like the Johnny Cash version of Hurt, on the JBLs it sounded great, even at quite high listening levels, listening to the same song with no other equipment upgrades with the Argon2's it sounds pretty terrible at higher volume. I actually thought that there was something wrong with the speakers until I read an article in the local HIFI magazine that mentioned that Hurt is a good track to use to test if your speakers are accurate as there is a lot of distortion added to the song on purpose. A great song no longer sounds so good but I believe I am hearing a more accurate reproduction, in this case I have not gained anything.

My advice to you would be to audition as many speakers as you can with material that you are very familiar with, preferably at home. An upgrade need not be huge in financial terms and quite possibly may not even be better sonically, but again if the sound is more pleasing to YOU then the upgrade can be substantial and worth the effort.

To second JCD, treating your room will also make a huge difference, once the room is treated you should be able to get the best performance out of your current speaers and may well be so impressed by the improvement in sound that there will be no need to 'upgrade', at least unti the itch comes around again.

Hope this ramble helps. These are just my opinions and are not the gospel truth.

Bob_99 wrote:

Would I have to do a quantum leap upgrade to notice a worthwhile difference, especially considering that I don't have a dedicated HT room?

Bob...This is the age old question with everything in our hobby. Many people have talked about many speakers here in this thread from regular drivers to planar's. Each speaker has their plus and minues, and while this may sound very cliche, it is up to you to listen and decide. You need to set a budget, and go out and listen to as many speakers as you can with your music. Try to bring some speakers home for audition if you can so you can hear them in your room on your electronics. You may find out after a bit, that your budget may be too low, or too high for the speakers you end up liking.

For myself, I am one of those ML owners that Sonnie mentions liking. I am a planar fan but I have also heard some very good non-planar speakers.

Remember it all comes down to what you like and what you can afford not what others recommend. Make some time, get some tunes together and go out and enjoy listening to some music. Also do not hesitate to take some road trips further away to get out to as many places as you can.

Dan

[conchyjoe7]

While you may not be able to "borrow" a few sets of speakers to listen to , there is another option. Almost everyone today has a 30 day no questions asked return policy. Now let me make this REALLY clear. No dealer wants you making a stack of demos he has to sell at or below cost, so be up front in your quest. Pick out what you like and ask if there is a demo pair that you could purchase with the stipulation that if you love them and decide to keep them that you are able to swap them out for a new pair or keep the demos at a substantial discount. Many dealers will appreciate your honesty in this way and most will accomodate you if they can. Bear in mind that not all dealers will have all speakers with a demo pair, but you may even be able to "borrow" through the previously mentioned purchase plan their demo floor pair for a night or two. Hope this helps...and by the way you don't have to have a dedicated room to sound good, just a room that you have paid attention to and corrected. MY main system is in my living room as it is my life's hobby (and my wife's thank goodness), but it sounds better than many dedicated rooms because I paid a lot of attention to decor that sounded good (drapes, carpeting, furniture)...if that makes sense to you. Go listen, you may be surprised at how little money may be iinvolved in what you may hear as a major upgrade, but as far as equipment, I'd definitely start with speakers as long as you have the power to drive them properly. Best of luck.
Cheers,
Konky.

[tonyvdb]

First of all it really depends on what your using now. There are plenty of speakers that were made twenty years ago that sound just as good as what are available today. If you only have bookshelf speakers then in most cases an upgrade to tower speakers would most likely make a noticeable difference. There are bookshelf speakers today that wont break the bank that will give some tower speaker a run for there money.
Generally speakers in the $1000 range will sound noticeably better than something in the $400 or less category for obvious reasons. But In my opinion there tends to be little difference from the $1600 to $2500 range, more so looks than anything else again what you like may not be what I like for sound in a speaker.
As has been mentioned before Listen, Listen, Listen and find what you like not what a sales person tells you to like.

[Ron Temple]

The LSis are a pretty nice, for the money, music and HT line. They take more current (4 ohm) than many competing lines, but they are by far the best current Polk line. If you walked into the purchase without having firm preferences to what you wanted in a speaker set...I think you did pretty moo good. I'm sensitive to the age issue myself...I keep telling myself bands don't sound as good as they used to...am I right or my hearing gone...don't want to know, so the bands don't sound as good

If you're not giving them separate amplification now, then that's where I'd start. 2-300 watts at 4ohms will wake them up. If your system is up to it already, then start auditioning, there's alot out there.

[conchyjoe7]

Hehe Ron, us "old timers" seem to gather the same response and I agree with you...bands just don't sound as good as they used to...except of course the "old" bands! Get the newest Pink Floyd or especially David Gilmour's and I think you'll agree those old boys can still play and play VERY VERY well!
Cheers,
Konky.

[Ron Temple]

I agree about PF and DG...saw Genesis earlier this month here in SJ. I hadn't seen them since the early 80s, IIRC. They used to be one of the most pristine performance bands around. That night the bass was overamped and distorted, muddy midrange and Phil Collins vocals were in and out. I was really disappointed...great to see them again, but what happened. Maybe it was the venue or maybe this is what you get in an 18-20K arena. Couldn't possibly be my ears

Enough of a derail..............