Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread - Page 9 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #81 of 91 Old 12-07-13, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
rab-byte's Avatar
Mr. Rabbit
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
No doubt. Just thinking of a way to start working in that direction, if it makes any sense at all.
Maybe an amp evaluation thread first. I know their is less sonic differences but still less esoteric then bi-amping.
rab-byte is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #82 of 91 Old 12-11-13, 07:43 PM
HTS Moderator
 
ajinfla's Avatar
AJ
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 1,563
My System
Re: Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread

Quote:
rab-byte wrote: View Post
Do you plan on bi-amping any speakers with dual binding posts?
Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
Powered speakers/biamping - a whole new class of speakers and a lot of new process/support questions to be worked through.
Quote:
lcaillo wrote: View Post
That would take a lot of preparation and a really good pair of amps and a really good versatile crossover. We would have to tweak the crossover points and levels to some relative target levels. Messy with lots of variables.
Hi Leonard,

I'm a bit puzzled by you answer, since it seems to follow the trail of the original question from rab-byte.
To me, he is clearly talking about "passive" biamping. Your response is about active biamping, which actually couldn't work with what rab-byte referred to, unless major surgery was performed (removing speaker internal crossover....unless you planned to cascade the filters)!
Like so many topics in audio, there seems to be a great deal of confusion generally speaking (this is not directed at you) about "biamping".
I am in no way suggesting it be done in your testing, but "bi-amping any speakers with dual binding posts" simply means removing the jumper and powering each leg of the XO with a separate amp, often times utilizing an already in use HT mch receiver, with "bi-amp" capability.
This requires no additional external (active) XO, or added expenditure for amps in the above case. Just another pair of wires.
Now, regarding active speakers, they are indeed possibly outside what your intended audience wants to see. But in terms of your test system, it seems, just utilizing any of the existing pre-outs would be all that was needed.
Anyone with an HT receiver with main outs can use active speakers. It is actually quite system beneficial, but perhaps outside the scope of this comparison.

cheers,

AJ

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
ajinfla is offline  
post #83 of 91 Old 12-11-13, 11:04 PM
HTS Moderator
Reviewer
 
AudiocRaver's Avatar
Wayne Myers
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 4,667
Re: Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread

Quote:
ajinfla wrote: View Post
Hi Leonard,

I'm a bit puzzled by you answer, since it seems to follow the trail of the original question from rab-byte.
To me, he is clearly talking about "passive" biamping. Your response is about active biamping, which actually couldn't work with what rab-byte referred to, unless major surgery was performed (removing speaker internal crossover....unless you planned to cascade the filters)!
Like so many topics in audio, there seems to be a great deal of confusion generally speaking (this is not directed at you) about "biamping".
I am in no way suggesting it be done in your testing, but "bi-amping any speakers with dual binding posts" simply means removing the jumper and powering each leg of the XO with a separate amp, often times utilizing an already in use HT mch receiver, with "bi-amp" capability.
This requires no additional external (active) XO, or added expenditure for amps in the above case. Just another pair of wires.
Now, regarding active speakers, they are indeed possibly outside what your intended audience wants to see. But in terms of your test system, it seems, just utilizing any of the existing pre-outs would be all that was needed.
Anyone with an HT receiver with main outs can use active speakers. It is actually quite system beneficial, but perhaps outside the scope of this comparison.

cheers,
Not speaking for Leonard, just my own thoughts. Of course, bi-amping using an existing crossover is not difficult. Neither is getting a preamp signal to a powered speaker or monitor. We are more concerned with being able to ensure we are doing apples-to-apples comparisons, and keeping all speakers in an evaluation on an equal footing so the results are as meaningful as possible to our readers. And not adding unnecessary variables.

I am sure you can appreciate that every little change or detail that sounds like a simple thing on the surface means preparations, equipment purchases, many discussions and posts back and forth to resolve minuscule issues. It's more a matter of management than technical difficulty, and maintaining a smooth process flow for a weekend with minimal special decision points along the way, staying sane and having some fun. We are not afraid of taking on new levels of technical complexity, just want to make sure the result will be worth the time and energy investment.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
AudiocRaver is offline  
post #84 of 91 Old 12-11-13, 11:14 PM
HTS Hillbilly
HTS Administrator
 
Sonnie's Avatar
I'm a redneck!
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 22,555
My System
Re: Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread

Would not bi-amping be more or less to supply more power to the speakers? Like AJ says... more particular helpful when you are using a receiver that has the bi-amp capability. I would add especially if it were ask to drive difficult speakers, such as the reason I bi-amped my ML Prodigy's with my Denon 4520.

We have plenty of power with my XPR-5, so I do not see any benefit of bi-amping any of the bookshelf speakers, unless we plan to literally blow them up.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


PremierHomeAudio: Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, Def Tech and more. Shoot me a PM!
Sonnie is offline  
post #85 of 91 Old 12-12-13, 12:27 AM Thread Starter
Elite Shackster
 
rab-byte's Avatar
Mr. Rabbit
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
...We have plenty of power with my XPR-5, so I do not see any benefit of bi-amping any of the bookshelf speakers, unless we plan to literally blow them up.
Don't do that! Then you won't be able to give them away in another great drawing. Also some of the venders may get mad
rab-byte is offline  
post #86 of 91 Old 12-12-13, 10:00 AM
HTS Moderator
 
ajinfla's Avatar
AJ
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 1,563
My System
Re: Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread

Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
Not speaking for Leonard, just my own thoughts. Of course, bi-amping using an existing crossover is not difficult. Neither is getting a preamp signal to a powered speaker or monitor. We are more concerned with being able to ensure we are doing apples-to-apples comparisons, and keeping all speakers in an evaluation on an equal footing so the results are as meaningful as possible to our readers. And not adding unnecessary variables.

I am sure you can appreciate that every little change or detail that sounds like a simple thing on the surface means preparations, equipment purchases, many discussions and posts back and forth to resolve minuscule issues. It's more a matter of management than technical difficulty, and maintaining a smooth process flow for a weekend with minimal special decision points along the way, staying sane and having some fun. We are not afraid of taking on new levels of technical complexity, just want to make sure the result will be worth the time and energy investment.
Quote:
ajinfla wrote: View Post
I am in no way suggesting it be done in your testing....
...but perhaps outside the scope of this comparison.
Hi Audiocraver,
My apologies for not being clearer initially.
I was only highlighting what I though might be a misunderstanding of what rab-byte was referring to (passive biamping).
Regarding active speakers (say, bookshelf in this case), there would be no "additional equipment", other than another RCA, or RCA>XLR cable, depending on model. Plug into "pre-outs" of Anthem 225, rather than speaker out terminals...and hit play.
Now of course, if the comparison is strictly "passive bookshelf", this is all moot.

Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
Would not bi-amping be more or less to supply more power to the speakers?
Maybe. In the passive/HT recv case, the increase would be marginal at best.

Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
Like AJ says... more particular helpful when you are using a receiver that has the bi-amp capability. I would add especially if it were ask to drive difficult speakers, such as the reason I bi-amped my ML Prodigy's with my Denon 4520.
Hi Sonny. There are different forms of "biamping". What Rab-byte referred to, is "passive" biamping. Then there is active. And combinations. The benefit with the HT recv scenario has little to do with "more power" per se. It's more complicated than that...and outside the scope of this thread. If you're curious, start a "tech" (?) thread. I'd be happy to explain.
I would have to look at your setup to see how you biamped.

Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
We have plenty of power with my XPR-5, so I do not see any benefit of bi-amping any of the bookshelf speakers, unless we plan to literally blow them up.
In that scenario, there is no benefit.
I agree, as I previously noted (perhaps not clearly enough), that it should be outside the scope of your comparisons.
Now, active speakers, whole 'nother story.
No idea of what percentage of members have HT recvs with pre-outs, vs not.

Thread jack over

cheers,

AJ

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
ajinfla is offline  
post #87 of 91 Old 12-12-13, 06:41 PM
Plain ole user
 
lcaillo's Avatar
Tech Guru
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Posts: 11,121
Send a message via AIM to lcaillo
Re: Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread

I guess I have never seen the point in passive biamping. Regardless, it is not something we will be doing in these evaluations. We want to remove as many variables as possible while being somewhat realistic with respect to how the speakers might be used. This is a difficult task without introducing something like biamping.

I don't know if or when we will even get to the bookshelf speakers, and when we do we will be starting on the low end of pricing so it is unlikely to be a meaningful question at that level anyway.

Looking for me, just google my username. I have used the same one for most sites for many years.
lcaillo is offline  
post #88 of 91 Old 12-12-13, 06:52 PM
Senior Shackster
Erin
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North, Alabama
Posts: 290
Re: Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread

jumping in the ring here... hope it's not too late.

I'd like to add Kef's Q100 or Q300 bookshelves to this mix. I picked up a used set of Q100's on eBay last year for just under $400 and was INCREDIBLY surprised by them. They convey a soundstage like nothing in it's price range that I had heard; and even beyond it's price range. If we can time it right, I'd be happy to lend mine to the demo.

And, forgive me for asking if this has been stated (it's a 9 page thread, you know ), but where will this be done? Sonnie, I'd be happy to open up my house some weekend or travel to yours to help assist, depending on when this goes down.

Finally, have you guys discussed doing a spatial average measurement to correlate what the subjective review is with objective data? I think that would be invaluable and might help lend itself to determining why a certain listener thought it sounded one way and another thought differently. For example, if the overwhelming consensus is that Speaker A sounded bright, then we'd possibly be able to match this with the data and a peak in response in the high frequency range. I'm a huge proponent of providing measurements with subjective listening. This would be a great opportunity to really give the community some meat with their potatoes.


- Erin
Erin H is offline  
post #89 of 91 Old 12-13-13, 10:36 AM
HTS Moderator
 
ajinfla's Avatar
AJ
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 1,563
My System
Re: Unofficial Bookshelf Evaluation Suggestion Thread

Quote:
lcaillo wrote: View Post
I guess I have never seen the point in passive biamping.
Most don't. As I mentioned, it is largely misunderstood.

Quote:
lcaillo wrote: View Post
Regardless, it is not something we will be doing in these evaluations. We want to remove as many variables as possible while being somewhat realistic with respect to how the speakers might be used. This is a difficult task without introducing something like biamping.
I agree with you 100%.

I do think it would be interesting if active speakers, at the same price points as their passive counterparts, were included. Most 2ch setups could easily accommodate this. If the slant is towards HT, then I'm not sure, as many (lower-mid line) HT recv's don't have the requisite preouts.

cheers

AJ

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
ajinfla is offline  
post #90 of 91 Old 12-21-13, 11:39 AM
Shackster
 
Utopianemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 81
Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
It is going to be difficult to simulate every possible scenario for setup. There are a ton of possibilities for bookshelf/monitor type speaker placements. However, this may not a lot different than towers... simply because you probably are not going to be able to get that "critical" listening sound out of bookshelves when they are on a bookshelf or near a back wall. Depth of soundstage is going to be limited. In order to get the most/best sound out of them, you will need to pull them out into the room. Nearly all the bookshelf speakers we listened to at shows are out from the wall... for a reason. So... are you going to be doing critical listening? Or are you just going to get a pair and stick them on a shelf and leave them there, never really sitting down to try to get some quality listening time with them? I purchased the Carnegie's for my great room entertainment center (left, center and right), which are pretty expensive, but I NEVER pull them out and listen to them. I am in no way getting my money out of them... so I just recently purchased a very inexpensive set of Infinity Primus bookshelves with a center... actually sounds better for TV, but still far from anything that I would consider really good... and mostly because of their location. I plan to sell the Carnegie's and not be wasting that money. If I were going to be doing some critical listening, I might keep the Carnegie's, if I found them to sound good enough considering what I paid for them. But as it is... the closest they get to music is the music channels on Dish Network while my wife is cleaning the house... or if she watches one of them shows where all those nice dressed folks get trophies and there is a lot of singing going on between them making a fool of themselves.
True, but there are a lot of standmounters that are designed to be placed near the front wall, such as some sealed boxes and others like the Wharfedale 121's. Their "port" is on the bottom, and the low frequencies exit through a space between the box and the plinth. It's actually recommended to place those speakers near a wall.

In any case, it seems to me a good idea to split the entries into two categories: rear ported vs. sealed or front ported.

We all find what we're looking for, whether we know it or not.
Utopianemo is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
bookshelf , evaluation , thread , unofficial

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now




PLEASE COMPLETE ALL REQUIRED FIELDS BELOW... THANKS!

REQUIRED FIELDS ON THIS PAGE
YOU MUST COMPLETE ALL OF THESE

Username
Password
Confirm Password
Email Address
Confirm Email Address
Random Question
Random Question #2




User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
PLEASE READ BELOW PRIOR TO ENTERING AN EMAIL ADDRESS!

ATTENTION!

YOU MUST ACTIVATE YOUR ACCOUNT!

Activation requires you reply to an email we will send you after you register... if you do not reply to this email, you will not be able to view certain areas of the forum or certain images... nor will you be able download software.

AN INVALID EMAIL ADDRESS WILL CAUSE YOUR ACCOUNT TO BE DELETED!

See our banned email list here: Banned Email List

We DO NOT respond to spamcop, boxtrapper and spamblocker emails... please add @hometheatershack DOT com to your whitelist prior to registering or you will get nowhere on your registration.


Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML is not allowed!
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome