Focal vs Martin Logan, who knew?

**grapenuts** · **01-19-08, 07:52 PM**

I went to Tweeter today to audition the Chorus 826V vs. the 918CLA. When I arrived I sat in the chair and handed over my cd collection to the rep and asked him to switch through and replay songs. Unfortunately they only had Receivers on hand and no separates, so I knew I would be in for disappointment from the get go.
Less detail and more coloration was the venue of the day, but with all things being equal, here is what I thought.
First, note that everything was being played through a Pioneer Elite Universal connected to a Yamaha RX-V3800. Not the best combo, but it's what I had to work with.

First the 826V. I had High hopes for this speaker and unfortunately, I wasn't pleased at all by what I was hearing. It was very muddy and colored around the upper mid range and the highs seemed to roll off at reference listening levels. This surprised me, as I have always known JM Labs to offer excellent mids and highs. After the first song was over I asked the rep to pull out the 918CLAs from the pack and listened again.

918CLA: Although physically a bit smaller, the soundstage was clearly larger and much more articulate than the 826V. But at 3995 compared to 2395, it wasn't much of a surprise. The tweeters were also more of what I had come to expect from FOCAL, as Sara McLaughlin sang beautifully through the 918s. Then I had an unexpected wrench thrown into the works.
The rep asked if I had heard the Martin logans that ran in the same price range. I hadn't so he switched it over and replayed the previous song. it was head and shoulders above both sets of speakers. My wife, who up till this point was ignoring everything and swiveling around in the chair, perked up and turned to face the sound stage. immediately she asked which speakers were playing and said she really liked the look of the speakers. She also thought Sara sounded more natural and lifelike. I also noticed a huge jump in transparency and it felt as if the speakers were in my acoustically treated theater with the separates powering them. I couldn't believe the little yammy was making the martin logans sing like that! Amazing air and detail and the soundstage was enormous. I am now at a loss and unsure what to look into further. The martin logans were the Vista model and it's supposed to be their entry level speaker? Crazy! they were priced at 3695 as opposed to the 918s 4K price tag. However, the rep informed me that the 918s were discontinued, and that he would give me the floor models for 2500. I am still leaning toward the Martin Logans to replace my infinity IL 60s. The Focals just didn't sound better. But I do realize that it's an unfair comparison as my IL's enjoy a room designed for sound and clean power. I need a bit of help here. do the Chorus 836V sound much better than the 826V? and does the 928 sound much better than the 918?
I just can't believe I was floored by an entry level electrostat! My neighbor uses the Electra 926 powered by the Halo A52 and they sound great, but the 918/826 just didn't seem to be there.
What do you all think?

Adam

**Sonnie** · **01-19-08, 08:32 PM**

I'm not surprised in the least. I've heard a lot of speakers in my lifetime, none have come close to my Ascent i's. They are that good.

Actually the Source and Purity are their entry level speakers. The Vista are a step up. Their are several used pairs of Vantages on Audiogon if you want to step up another notch and stay under $4K.

Welcome to the Shack!

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **01-19-08, 10:07 PM**

Great comparision there, Adam, and welcome to the Forum.

Just a suggestion, would you mind editing your post and identifying who makes these 918, 826, 2395 etc, for those of us who can’t keep up with the model numbers of the dozens of speaker manufactures on the market?

Sure would help us out.

So – you gonna get a Yamaha receiver?

-

Regards,
Wayne

**Sonnie** · **01-19-08, 10:13 PM**

He identifies the Martin Logan, so the others would have to be Focal since the title of his thread is Focal vs. Martin Logan.

**grapenuts** · **01-19-08, 10:36 PM**

LOL, Thanks Sonnie, Good to be here. They are the JM Labs Profile series 918 and the JM Labs Chorus 826V speakers. I am currently doing some research on the MLs and see if there are some nice used models on Agon for the price of the Vistas. I saw the Requests and the Ascent I s. What is the differnece between the Ascent and Ascent I, and is the Request a step up from that?
Hard to follow the chronology of these speakers.

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **01-19-08, 11:09 PM**

Quote:

Sonnie wrote:

He identifies the Martin Logan, so the others would have to be Focal since the title of his thread is Focal vs. Martin Logan.

Yeah, I thought that was the case, too, until I read this...

Quote:

grapenuts wrote:

This surprised me, as I have always known JM Labs to offer excellent mids and highs.

Regards,
Wayne

**Sonnie** · **01-19-08, 11:23 PM**

The Ascent i is suppose to be a significant improvement over the older Ascent, but the exact improvements I am not aware of. I believe the Requests are older than the Ascents. I could have purchase the Vistas and/or the Vantages when I purchased the Ascent i's, but from what I was reading on the Ascent i's, they were one of the best ML has built for the money and I was getting a fairly good deal on them to boot. After I purchased them I started looking for a center ML. I called quite a few dealers and was telling them that I had Ascent i's and I had several dealers tell me that the Ascent i's were one of their favorites outside of the Odyssey, Prodigy and Summits, which are all the very top end models, with the Summits being the most recent top model.

EDIT: I meant to ad that a lot of the differences between these models have to do more with the woofer section than the panels. Not there is no difference in panels, but I've read about more differences in the low end that the mid to upper end. Most all of them are crossed over around 450Hz.

If you really want to research ML's, I suggest: Martin Logan Club forum... They will be able to tell you a whole lot more than I can. I learned a lot from those guys about ML's.

**Sonnie** · **01-19-08, 11:28 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

Yeah, I thought that was the case, too, until I read this...

Quote:

grapenuts wrote:

This surprised me, as I have always known JM Labs to offer excellent mids and highs.

Regards,
Wayne

Focal-JMlab is the speaker company.

**grapenuts** · **01-19-08, 11:42 PM**

Sonny,
Thanks for the insight on the MLs. I had very little knowledge about them up until this evening. They have definitely peaked my interest and their are a few Ascent and Ascent I listings currently. I may have to pull the trigger!

Wayne, just incase anyone else is wondering why I listed what looks like two different companies in the thread; JM Labs was an independent company that was picked up by FOCAL (french company that hand builds all of their speakers AND drivers!) They are currently called FOCAL or sometimes you see them listed as FOCAL JM-Labs. The older Electra 926/936 line I was referring to was from the older JM lab era. Fantastic speakers. But I think with proper amplification the MLs would be extremely tough to beat

**Sonnie** · **01-19-08, 11:46 PM**

Even with my Denon receiver the ML's sounded better than anything I'd ever heard, but the Anthem MCA-50 did improve them over the Denon at higher volumes.

**jerome** · **01-20-08, 01:53 AM**

Quote:

grapenuts wrote:

But I think with proper amplification the MLs would be extremely tough to beat

Indeed

Electrostats sound different than conventional speakers. I own a pair of Vista and heard many other speakers before buying but when back to them every time. Paired with the right pre/power amplifier(s), they can be very hard to beat.
I recommend that you buy speakers with the XStat panel (XStat), since they are said to increase the sweet spot area and sound better than the non-XStat panels (I have to admit that I haven't heard non-XStat panels so I only relay what I have read in forums).

I heard to Focal 1027Be, liked them a lot but still went back to Vista.

Imaging, sound stage size and 3-D are wonderful with ML

But I would not recommend them if you like to play loud music like techno, rock, hard-rock, metal, etc. Or classical. They sound best for everything else. You can play loud but that's not what they do best.
The sweet spot area may be reduced compared to other speakers but it's just that you will have to work a bit more with speaker placement and room acoustic.

If I were you, I would forget about the Focal and jump straight to ML

**grapenuts** · **01-20-08, 11:12 AM**

I typically like to listen either a bit below, or a bit above reference level, which is 70db in my Theater. Would they still shine at those levels? I must admit that this is the first time in a long time I have been excited at the proposal to replace the IL60s and C36 center. In my room, and paired with my MMC-1 and IPS-1 Amp, I am finding them VERY difficult to beat. But the MLs sounded as sweet with a RX-V3800 receiver! my ILs sounded muddy and bright with my Yammy RX-V2500. The rockin processing abilities from the MMC-1 (uses the same chip as Lexicon MC12B) and Clean power from the IPS-1 brought them to life

**jerome** · **01-20-08, 01:05 PM**

Quote:

grapenuts wrote:

I typically like to listen either a bit below, or a bit above reference level, which is 70db in my Theater. Would they still shine at those levels?

Yes, if you match them with the correct kind of amplifier (those who do not need to play loud to give their best). Lots of them do.
70db is not very loud so there's no problems here. But ML speakers also like to rock you know

Quote:

grapenuts wrote:

But the MLs sounded as sweet with a RX-V3800 receiver! my ILs sounded muddy and bright with my Yammy RX-V2500

I haven't heard the RX-V2500 with MLs but the new Yamaha receivers are better than those of the older generation. So you should not compare ML+3800 and IL+2500. If you really want to compare your speakers to the MLs then do an A/B test with the exact same setup.
Anyway, if you're going to get a very good pair of ML then I would strongly recommend you to budget for a separate 2-channel amplifier that can handle difficult loads like ML speakers(or even better, a integrated amplifier). You don't need to buy it know but you will really need it once you hear the difference a good amplifier makes

**grapenuts** · **01-20-08, 01:52 PM**

Jerome,
The IPS-1 is a Class H amp with 7 separate internal amps with 7 separate toroidal transformers that produce 150WPC X 7. It is a fantastic amp and is completely stable down to 2 ohms. It shouldn't be a problem pushing even the most difficult of speakers. My infinity IL60s are pretty innificient at 86db, and the IPS makes them sing at even very low spl levels. Detail is phenomenal.I know a lot of that is due to the MMC-1 proccessor as well. I may pick up two 500 watt monos to power the MLs if I decide to go that route. I see a pair of Preludes I have my eye on as well at a great price. One quick general question though - Are the Ascent I as good as the Newer Vistas with the xstat? If so, there are some good deals to be had on the Ascent Is

**Sonnie** · **01-20-08, 02:35 PM**

According to a few dealers I spoke with who have heard both, they claim the Ascent i's are actually better than the Vista or Vantage. They both have 30 degree dispersion with the Ascent i's being 13" wide and the Vista being 10.7" wide. It would make sense that with the same dispersion, the wider panel would create a wider sweet spot. The Ascent i's are also about a foot taller, 20 lbs heavier... extend to 35Hz while the Vista's extend only to 43Hz. I think the Vantage might be closer in comparison as far as extension.

**grapenuts** · **01-20-08, 03:56 PM**

Sonnie, Hopefully you are still lurking around the forum while watching the game. I have an opportunity to purchase Ascents that have the 'I' drivers installed for 1800. The seller has sold to me in the past and would rather deal with me. he is also throwing in two RABOS kits for my ILs for free (I don't need them, but hey) I also have an opportunity to purchase Oddessy's for 1900 from an unknown seller. Would you go for the Ascents with the I drivers? or the Oddessy's?

**Sonnie** · **01-20-08, 04:49 PM**

Actually I was in nap mode.

No question about it, I'd buy those Odysseys... provided they are in good condition. $1900 sounds awfully cheap... really too cheap. I would want to see pictures.

**grapenuts** · **01-20-08, 05:27 PM**

Just checked. They are already sold. I lose on that one. But how about the Ascent with the replacement "I" woofers installed? 1800 sound good or get the straight up Ascent I for 2300?

**Sonnie** · **01-20-08, 05:34 PM**

I would try to research the difference between the Ascent and Ascent i's more to see if the woofer is the main difference. Do the Ascents have the 30 degree dispersion of the i's? I'm not sure. Also see if you can find out the age of each, which might help make a difference. $2300 seems a tad high, but it they are 9/10, I might make an offer on those. Will the seller include shipping for that price? Things to consider.

If I didn't have to leave I would help you try to research it, but I've got to go and won't be back until 9-10pm.

**grapenuts** · **01-20-08, 05:49 PM**

No worries Sonny. I realize I am leaning on your advice here. I did find a spec sheet for the original Ascents: 30 Degree dispersion. All good. These are 3.5 yrs old with 1.5 yr left on the warranty. Looks like a decent deal at 1800

**Funkmonkey** · **01-20-08, 08:11 PM**

I listened to the Purity's the other day and I thought they sounded great. Intro model or not they had a nice full sound to them. I am sure that the sound gets even better as you move up through their line (and spend more money). If I had the space for them the Martin Logan's would be very high on my list. As it stands now the "Source" are high on my list, because of their smaller size and price...

**grapenuts** · **01-20-08, 10:36 PM**

yeah, I am definitely impressed. Just trying to secure either infinity intermezzo 4.1s for a ridiculous price, or a pair of Ascents. Either way it should be a great upgrade from the IL 60s!

**Sonnie** · **01-21-08, 12:49 AM**

With the age of those Ascents... I think I would go with them for $1800, especially since you have had previous experience with the seller.

**grapenuts** · **01-21-08, 09:19 AM**

Shipping is 268 which would bring it to 2068. Again, they're the Ascents with the woofers replaced with the "I" woofers. I may try to make a deal for 1950 shipped. I'm guessing that should be about right for pricing.
Edit: they also include the original packaging, the RABOS kits for the IL 60s, and the ESL Spikes. Not a bad combo.

**Sonnie** · **01-21-08, 09:48 AM**

Call your local UPS Store and see if they offer freight shipping. My local UPS Store offers freight shipping via Yellow Freight and it's a lot cheaper than if I call myself. Get a quote for business to business delivery (residence ads $65) and offer to help load and unload. I've been researching quite a bit here lately for shipping my SVS subs which weigh 160 lbs each. From here (Alabama) to Texas was only $154 and from Alabama to Seattle, Washington... all the way across the U.S. was only $220.

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