| ||||||||||||||||||||||
| ![]() | ![]() | |||||||
| Home Audio Speakers Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweetersDiscuss Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters in the Manufactured Speakers and Subwoofers forum; Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Which tweeter provides the bigger sweet spot, the horn tweeter or an aluminum dome tweeter?
My local high-end theater equipment ... |
|
|
Views: 4310 - Replies: 30
| Thread Tools |
| | #1 | ||||
| Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Which tweeter provides the bigger sweet spot, the horn tweeter or an aluminum dome tweeter? My local high-end theater equipment store just told me on the phone that horn tweeters have a very narrow listening area, while dome tweeters have a much wider sweet spot. In contrast, I found a few internet articles that say just the opposite . . . I'm forced to have far from ideal room conditions for my theater set-up (stuck in a corner, but rotated about 30 degrees), so I was wondering which tweeter would provide me with the wider sweet spot, enabling me to accompany more guest seating positions? Thanks for any help anyone can provide. Bob | ||||
|
| | |
| | |
| | #2 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Don't believe everything they say ... Do as you did, a research online to find out the differences ![]() ![]() If you can, ask them if you can try them at home (What better way to decide which one are best for you ) ... if they can't loan you a pair, I'm sure they have a 30 day return/exchange policy ... you can buy a pair and excahnge/return if you don't like them ![]() ![]() | ||||
|
| | #3 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters I believe I answered your question sufficiently here: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=40482 | ||||
|
| | #4 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Yep... I think Andrew gets the bone on this one. Excellent answer, although I have no idea if he's telling the truth, but it sounds really good. Just picking at you Andrew. | ||||
|
| | #5 | ||||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Of course the room plays a hugely important role in this situation, but again the OP asked about which type of tweeter which is why my emphasis lay on the loudspeaker not the room. As far as waveguide versus off-axis dispersion they are two different but interrelated things. A waveguide does exactly what the name implies where the horizontal and in this case less importantly vertical response are "guided." While this can limit a tweeter's off-axis dispersion characteristics it does not entirely control the linearity of these responses which is why this distinction is important. Waveguides can control actual dispersion, but the dispersion itself dictates imaging so I guess in a sense both the waveguide and the tweeters resulting dispersion characteristics will be indicative of imaging/sweet spot sensation. If one is looking for a way to quantify this data off-axis response will be the most important data to collect and analyze. | ||||||||
|
| | #6 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Clear this up for me... I don't want to misunderstand what I'm reading. Does this make any speaker other than the Klipsch, KEF Uni-Q and Tannoy DC or similar type horn useless? I guess all these speakers developers for about 95% of the speakers on the market are not so smart... and the hundreds of speaker reviewers giving good marks to all these speakers with flush baffle speakers just don't realize all the problems that exist in these speakers and really shouldn't be writing reviews? I wonder how all these speakers companies with flush baffles stay in business with all the problems that exist in this design? I wonder where my Martin Logan's fit into all this? And that monkey is just too funny! | ||||
|
| | #7 | |||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Also, in some rooms it is preferable to have poor off-axis response. While in a technical sense this is not ideal there are certain situations such as an extremely reverberant room where off axis response would likely need to be tamed for maximum sound quality. Quote:
Quote:
If DS-21's reference to a 180 degree waveguide is where this came from I believe he was referring to a situation where a non-waveguided tweeter is used in conjunction with a flat baffle which is exactly what I plan on doing and as I have previously said is an extremely good idea if proper methodology is taken .Baffle compensation is only really needed in the case where a non-waveguided tweeter is used and the tweeter in question has extremely linear off-axis response. If the compensation is not taken off-axis response will be ruined due to wave diffraction issues. I am not aware of any credible 3rd party measurements on the Ascent I's. If you know of any I could give you my thoughts on the objective performance of the loudspeaker. If you wish not to jack this thread feel free to PM me or start another thread. | |||||||
|
| | #8 | ||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Quote:
I just can't get over how much I like the sound... even if someone discovers they are design flawed. In that case I would say I am glad they erred. ![]() | ||||||
|
| | #9 | ||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Quote:
. | ||||||
|
| | #10 | |||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
So the upper end of JBL, Infinity, Revel are all some of the better designs? Actually all of Revels centers appear to be the toppled MTM design. Seems to be the same with JBL and Infinity. I'm assuming Harman owns more speakers companies I'm not aware of and maybe I'm not looking at the right models. Can you be more specific? Thanks! | |||||
|
| | #11 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters I plan to get a pair of bookshelf speakers with a center for our great room, so this thread may help me decide what to get. I had looked at the Klipsch and the JBLs... particularly the RB-51 and L830. ![]() Bob... if this discussion is not helping you and you feel I'm hi-jacking your thread, let me know and we'll move it. I'm hoping that it's helpful to you though... and others as well. | ||||
|
| | #12 | ||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
This lack of consistent sound is likely due to the poor integration. Using a digital crossover along with matching axial and off-axis response you can achieve this consistent sound. Using something like the Infinity 10PR80BZQ-FW02 4" mid range coupled with a tweeter such as the Neo PDR3 this response can be achieved. The Infinities off axis response at 60 degrees is nearly identical to the axial response up to 3000kHz. The PDR3 has an extremely linear response from around 2kHz to 20kHz with its off-axis response 60 degrees at 15kHz being only -5dB if flush mounted with proper baffle compensation. A combination such as this will allow for complete continuity with proper crossover use as the axial responses are nearly identical. The real issue with such mounting is the typical DIYer and speaker manufacturer do not invest the time in testing/designing drivers until they are ideal for a given application which is why inconsistency occurs. I will say it can be much harder to achieve proper response using a flush mounted non-waveguide tweeter, but once implemented properly the results are far superior in both an objective and subjective* sense as off-axis dispersion is allowed to flourish in a way not conducive to the waveguided design. *Both Ian Paisely of Mirage and Floyd Toole of Harman through various double blind tests of thousands of participants found wide off-axis dispersion with similar magnitude to on-axis is preferable. One thing that I have noticed about these typical horn loaded designs is that their off-axis tweeter response is lacking in said linearity which has been shown to be preferable by the credible perceptual research. This is why I recommend them for highly reverberant rooms as the imaging would be better in such a case or for a near field application, but when compared with a loudspeaker that has a wider, more linear, dispersion pattern (all else being equal) in a acoustically treated environment subjective reviews will fall with the latter discussed loudspeaker. As far as the discussion that there are only a handful brands putting out speakers worth buying that is simply ludicrous.For example B&W and Ascend Acoustics both quite a few speakers that perform well in the objective sense as laid out by perceptual research as well as the subjective sense. Furthermore, another Harman subsidiary that was never mentioned, Infinity has developed some speakers that are simply superb especially considering their price point. One such example is the Primus 360 (do not confuse this with the Primus 362). The perceptual research conducted does show issues with some designs, but more importantly, if fully understood, gives on an objective method of rating loudspeakers via measurements in the end design methodology should be ignored as it is not necessarily indicative of quality. For those interested this link has all of Harman's child companies. Quote:
Last edited by avaserfi; 01-30-08 at 09:23 AM.. | ||||||
|
| | #13 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters I'll start a new thread for those bookshelves and toss my budget in there. I did mention Infinity as a Harman company though. I installed some 360's in a home theater system for my wife's boss and we were all impressed. | ||||
|
| | #14 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters What changes were made between the 360 and 362? Our calculations are always correct, for we are gigantic brains. | ||||
|
| | #15 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters A reliable source told me that the the new **2 series is an attempt to reduce driver production costs, at the expense of some quality. Based on the measurements at stereophile.com of a 162 vs. a 160 I had on hand, this certainly appears to be the case. However, I personally do not think the slight quality reduction matters greatly based on the use of these speakers in stock form. The cabinets are resonant structurally, and do not even use sufficient acoustic absorption materials internally. However, some of those Primus **0 raw drivers measure fantastically - essentially good enough to use in unlimited class sound quality speaker systems. The mid-range used on the 360 is a case in point - I bought a replacement driver from Harman and analyzed this unit. The characteristic response properties are unbelievable considering the speaker system in which it was used. But as you know, you can put the best drivers in the world in a shoddy cabinet system with a less than ideal crossover and ruin any potential said drivers may have. -Chris | ||||
|
| | #16 | ||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Quote:
-Chris * In this thread, I intend to mean non-wave guide tweeters installed on baffles with very large radius edges, in the 3" or larger range, in order to maintain linearity on and off axis, thus minimizing diffracting characteristics of the baffle. Last edited by WmAx; 01-31-08 at 12:14 PM.. | ||||||
|
| | #17 | |||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Couldn't have said it better myself. Last edited by avaserfi; 01-31-08 at 02:10 PM.. | |||||||
|
| | #19 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters While that is a noble thought there is a tremendous amount of research in the field that shows there are certain characteristics of tweeters that are desirable while there are others that are not. Numerous blind tests were conducted with thousands of subjects in search of this data. Look up Ian Paisley on the AES website for example of such research. | ||||
|
| | #20 | ||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Quote:
Multiple drivers(in a 3 way system as an example) work sufficiently when properly integrated. I do not see the issue so far as relevant performance is concerned in a properly integrated system. A 2 way system is very difficult to pull off while having desirable measured characteristics are dictated as desirable by perceptual research. -Chris Last edited by WmAx; 02-02-08 at 06:43 PM.. | ||||||
|
| | #21 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters I personally like my Klipsch Reference speakers avaserfi. Klipsch has always advocated horn loading. I do like the sound of B&W and Paradigm speakers though and they're not (or at least most of them aren't) horn loaded. Am I wrong in thinking that a basic dome tweeter is pretty much the same as a basic horn loaded design minus the horn? You can horn load any driver for that matter (ie: the Klipschorn or La Scala). Is the main goal of a horn to increase the sensitivity of the speaker without distorting the output too much? As for sweet spot, would that not depend on the construction of either horn or tweeter. If you look at the aluminum dome tweeters on some Paradigm speakers (ie: the Signature series) they have a unique wave guide. I'm sure this sort of design would affect the direction of the frequencies emitted by the tweeter to enlarge the sweet spot and control any erratically dispersed waves. Correct me if I'm way off in my assumptions. | ||||
|
| | #22 | ||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Personally, I would never make the efficiency trade off in regards to high fidelity mid/far field listening. The cost for increased sensitivity just isn't worth the worsened off-axis response unless one needs a PA system in which fidelity isn't the primary concern. After all, proper amplification coupled with a well designed driver will allow for required SPLs in with inaudible compression and distortion assuming typical listening habits and even if the music that has extreme transient peaks of 110-115dB. Quote:
| ||||||
|
| | #23 | ||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Quote:
-Chris Last edited by WmAx; 02-03-08 at 04:02 PM.. | ||||||
|
| | #24 | ||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters What speakers does he own? | ||||
|
| | #25 | |||||||||
| Re: Horn tweeters V.S. aluminum dome tweeters Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
-Chris Last edited by WmAx; 02-03-08 at 10:54 PM.. | |||||||||
|