Electrostat Placement?

[BleedingStar]

I have just gotten a new pair of King Sound Prince Electrostat Loudspeakers ( http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/products.html ). I was been messing with them a bunch and wondered if anyone else had any good experience with Electrostats. They seem very directional, which is good for many things, but I wondering if there is a best setup to widen the sound field up a bit more. Any other advice on electrostats would be appreciated.

[Sonnie]

Never heard of them, but several of us here have Martin Logan electrostats... a proven company that has been in business for many years.

I'm not sure about other stats, but I would think they would be similar for setting up. With the ML's the sound stage is astronomically huge... setup didn't seem to effect the sound stage that much for me. For best imaging I toed my ML's in slightly. I used a flashlight and when pointing it at the speaker I could see a reflection at the inner 1/3 portion of the stat panel. Worked well for me.

[BleedingStar]

Yah, i've looked at a lot of martin logans. These have completely flat front, as opposed to the curved panel of many of the ML. Are your ML's hybrids or no?

[Sonnie]

My Ascent i's have a dynamic woofer crossed over at 280Hz to the electrostat panel.

[BleedingStar]

Yah these are full 58" by 18" electrostat panels, the mids/high are extremely impressive, and even though it is rated down to 48 hz, it definitely gets weeker on the lows... I am thinking about getting a powered subwoofer to go along with each one of the electrostats, thus making my own "hybrid" system.

[BleedingStar]

just ordered two Infinity PS210 Subwoofers to go along with the electrostats... hopefully a crossover of 150 will be high enough to blend well with the electros

[jackfish]

I wouldn't be afraid of crossing over the PS210s at 50 Hz if the electrostats can actually deliver down to 48 Hz +/- 3 dB as I believe they have a rated frequency response of 48 Hz to 26 kHz +/- 3 dB. Try several different crossover points, you may find 50 Hz sounds best. The PS210s have a steep 24dB/Octave crossover slope and the two (ESLs and subs) might perform better overall crossed close to the effective low end range of the electrostats.

I also wouldn't be afraid to move the panels out into the room a bit, even perhaps following the Cardas Golden Angle theory: http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf Those electrostats radiate from the back as well and you may find more depth in the soundstage with them out from the wall a bit.

[BleedingStar]

Well it does play quite low, however I will admit it doesn't have the same punch at the low frequencies that a regular subwoofer might. I guess I'll just have to play with some to see how i prefer it. I know many martin logan hybrids have there crossover as high as 460 hz.

[BleedingStar]

Very good to know, thanks for the advice. I'll have to play a bit with the crossover when the subs arrive to see how it works out. Right now my speakers are a couple feet from the wall, but I am unable to really move them much further out in my current setup. I'd love to play with them a bit more. I may soon be moving to a different home in which I may have more room to play with, I will definitely bookmark that link and keep that in mind when I am tweeking the system.

[BleedingStar]

Alright, well i've got the PS210's in and so far the really seem to be filling the gap that I needed. I can now easily listen to music in stereo mode with just the Prince's and PS210s. Also for full digital soundtracks the lows are really apparent in the front channels now. My LFE subwoofer is set to quitte a low crossover, so there was a lot of missing range. However, with a fully discrete system your front speakers should be able to take some pretty heavy lows anyways.

No, I have another question at the moment. My current LFE subwoofer its kind of makeshift. It can definitely punch, but its actually an old car sub box with 2 JL 10's in it. It does alright. However, in order to clean up some variation. I am tempted to blend the LFE in with my 2 SP210s. To do this I would run the Left Channel out + LFE out to my left sub, and Right Channel Out + LFE to the right sub. If I am correct this should blend the LFE in with the two, but still give the discrete punch from the fronts? Again, this is something I guess i need to test... and I may find it better to leave the extra JUST for the low LFE channel, but I figured I would ask for any opinions or if there is any other ways to work such a system.

I may also have a few more placement issues I will be looking into as soon as I get some pictures to post up.

[grapenuts]

I'm curious as to what Xover you decided to go with? I wouldn't go as high as 150. That will make the sound a bit muddy if your subs aren't super musical. Vice Versa, I wouldn't drop it too far below 80 either. Then you get leaner bass as the Stats try to come up with some punch the Sub needs to be doing for you. If I were you with Full Stats and no hybrid woofer, I would set it right at THX first, then go up to 100 and as low as 70 and see where you fit. I would bet you will sound your best at 80-90.

[BleedingStar]

I've found they were best set around 120 so far, Still might play around a bit.

[superchad]

I own Innersound Eros Electrostats which have flat panels like yours, I dont run mine anymore but still own them so here is what I learned.
As you know they need room from backwall, 3ft atleast but side wall is not very critical because of the narrow dispersion, placing items behind them to break up the backwave is very helpful.
When aiming the speakers I used a flashlight help next to my ear in my listening seat, when you see the beam reflected in center of panel on each side your in!
Also if they have spikes or feet you can lower the fronts or rears and play with the angle they fire towards you at, this can help define the soundstage and its height.........very useful.
You are going to need to use a Vacuum cleaner on that ESL from time to time......scratch that and please refer to owners manual, I will only say mine needed cleaned with a hoover every so often, the sound can get dull and cleaning them helps again look at your manual but I can share how I did things if you wish.
If I can help feel free to contact me, cheers

[JonFo]

Dealing with the backwave of a dipole is critical to achieving the best sound from this style of speaker, and since ESL's radiate a LOT of high frequency to the rear (just as much as the front, unlike other ribbon or tweeter based line array dipoles), handling that is critical for best performance.

I run an all MartinLogan setup, design my own speakers and do fully active crossovers, and have posted a ton of information in related topics over on the MartinLogan owners forum.

Specifically, the big thread on positioning, treatments etc. for Electrostats; it's 230+ posts chock full of information, detailed measurements and some great discussion.

As for crossover points, I believe 120 is the lowest you should go on a panel, and personally use much higher settings on my large Monoliths.

[grapenuts]

Jon, you use much higher? then again you are actively bi-amping and using your own external xover. with the internals, I don't like the sound of the logans with an xover at 150 or even 120. I find it best right around THX give or take 10hz. If it's a hybrid, it can handle the lower duty I would think due to allowing the woofer to take on the lower duty. a straight stat panel is a different story though. I've read your design on your clxcenter build and it looks great! excellent job. I deal with the rear wave of my Ascent i's by absorbing a good portion of it but not killing it all together. high order frequencies are absorbed and it seems to do the trick nicely.

[superchad]

If I were you I would try to diffuse the backwave but leave the wall live behind them, if they are placed far enough from back wall and the backwave is broken up and scattered while leaving the surface live will give you more magic then absorbing the sound, I have not heard your set-up so I am just going on my own experience with my Electrostat Hybrid speakers....................cheers

[JonFo]

grapenuts wrote:

Jon, you use much higher? then again you are actively bi-amping and using your own external xover. with the internals, I don't like the sound of the logans with an xover at 150 or even 120. I find it best right around THX give or take 10hz. If it's a hybrid, it can handle the lower duty I would think due to allowing the woofer to take on the lower duty. a straight stat panel is a different story though. I've read your design on your clxcenter build and it looks great! excellent job. I deal with the rear wave of my Ascent i's by absorbing a good portion of it but not killing it all together. high order frequencies are absorbed and it seems to do the trick nicely.

Grapenuts, I use the following crossover points for the Monoliths:

Panel to Monolith woofer (aftermarket mid-bass capable driver) is at 315Hz

Woofer to IB Sub is at 60Hz

If using the stock hybrid system crossover, you pretty much can only pick the transition to the sub x-over. So 80 to 100Hz is fine for most. Some could be crossed over lower (Summits) but still no lower than 40hz.

If going totally active like I did, you should never cross over from the panel below 200, even for the big Monoliths. SL3 or Sequel type panels should cross over closer to 400Hz based on my metrics and resulting designs.

Regarding rear wave damping, be careful to use broadband absorption. As only absorbing the extreme highs or even upper mids on up, will not yield positive results at all.
The best results come when absorbing from 200 or 300hz on up, the lower you can go, the better.
That requires treatments that are 3 or more inches thick. If you are using 2" foam, or some other thin treatment stuck to the wall, that is not the right type to have behind the speakers.

Also, beware of treatments that include a limp mass absorber (typically a plastic film) embedded in them, as the reflective properties of the plastic are also negative. The recommended class of device to put *behind* an electrostat is something like the RealTraps MiniTrap HF (special note to the HF part, as it’s the ‘HighFrequency’ absorber version that will not reflect the highs).
Place this offset 2” from the wall, and least 13” or more from the back of the panel for best results.

[JonFo]

superchad wrote:

If I were you I would try to diffuse the backwave but leave the wall live behind them, if they are placed far enough from back wall and the backwave is broken up and scattered while leaving the surface live will give you more magic then absorbing the sound, I have not heard your set-up so I am just going on my own experience with my Electrostat Hybrid speakers....................cheers

Superchad, I also used to believe in diffusion, and actually ran that way for years, but after measuring and trying more absorptive solutions, I've converted to the 'Damp it' side.

The true 'magic' is to have the rear wave bounced and delayed more than 15ms before arrival. If the reflections arrive at less than that, they really kill instrument definition, dialog intelligibility and the comb filtering is horrendous.

But very few rooms accommodate managing the rear wave to that extent. Even then, I'd still recommend that energy from the rear wave be at lower than -18dB relative to the front, which means some broadband absorption is still required.

But note that in the case of the rear channels, I still use 2D diffusion (combined with broadband absorption) to increase perceived ambient fields for the rears.

The other reason for broadband is that the biggest buzzkill with dipoles is the rear wave cancelations in the mid-bass region. But absorbing the mid-bass from the rear wave substantially helps in that frequency range. Now a double bass or electric bass guitar sound clearer and have greater power.