Need help choosing new sub please!

**dsmith7000** · **08-19-06, 12:13 AM**

Hey! I just joined here because I really need help choosing my next sub. I've had a number of subs in the past, my most recent is a velodyne dps 10. I love the sub, but I have had some reliablility issues with it. I just sent it in on warranty and it came back with the original problem fixed but another new problem came up 2 days later... I love the sound of this sub. Its one of the cleanest subs Iv'e had. I've been looking at a new bob carver sub thats out called the "dominator" Its not a sunfire from what I can tell, and it looks kind of cheap. Does anyone have experience with this sub? I'm willing to spend the money this time, probably one to two thousand, but I don't want to be disappointed with sound quality. If anyone could help I would really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Derek

**Sonnie** · **08-19-06, 12:34 AM**

Hi Derek and welcome to the Shack!

For that kind of money there is no reason you shouldn't be just tickled pink happy...

I've not heard any of Carver's subs, but I know a lot of folks have been happy with them. Maybe some others have though.

You might look through the Subwoofer Tests forum and see how some of the various subs performed.

I have two SVS PB12-Plus/2's myself... awesome doesn't do justice describing them.

We'll also have a review of the new PB12-NSD here pretty soon. We are having a small review session this next weekend with that sub present. One of our own Shacksters will be writing a review on it.

There are no doubt a lot of good subs out there. SVS is super popular and the sub tests will reveal why. SVSound is also a sponsor here at the forum so you can communicate with those guys pretty easily. They also offer a 30 day trial period.

**bobgpsr** · **08-19-06, 09:23 AM**

Quote:

dsmith7000 wrote:

...the money this time, probably one to two thousand, but I don't want to be disappointed with sound quality. If anyone could help...

We are going to need to know a few more facts. Cubic feet in listening room? Willing to have a large sub enclosure or must it be as small as possible? Watch movies and want real infrasonic extension to cover helocopter blades (ala We Were Soldiers)? Willing to try cylinder subs?

Bob

**azjimmy** · **08-19-06, 11:46 AM**

At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, I'll have to agree with Sonnie. SVS makes some killer subs. But also, I agree with Bob. What is your room size, listening prefs, the speakers you'll be using said sub with. Details man!
A word about SVS. Tom and Ron have build their companies reputation on suggesting the right sub to fill your room, not to just fill your budget. Depending on the things above, you might only have to spend a fraction of that budget (7/8th is a fraction, right?

) Depending on you location, many of us SVS'ers are willing to give an audition to help make your mind up.
Another company worth mentioning is HSU. I have never heard them in person, but they are well respected.
Jim

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **08-19-06, 12:25 PM**

Derrek,

Echoing what Bob and Jim noted, we could use more info, else we can only speculate at best. As such I’ll do that, based on information culled from your post.

Quote:

Its one of the cleanest subs Iv'e had.

Not sure what “clean” sounds like in a sub, but the thing I look for after extension and ahead of maximum output is detail.

Which gets us to what you intend to use it for. I gather from your using a 10-incher that either you have a really small room, or accuracy with music is what you’re after. You can achieve accuracy (detail) with an equalizer. Detail – that’s more elusive. IMO detail is what separates a first-class music sub from a so-called home theater sub. Home theater is really about booming and explosions. That’s not hard to get from a sub. However, a sub that has good detail will also make a superb home theater sub.

That said, if you can live with another 10-incher, I recommend the SVS PB10-ISD. In a small room it has a steep rise in response at the lowest frequencies that’s great for boom, but obscures the detail the sub is capable of. However, once you flatten that out with an equalizer, the detail is fabulous. Take a look at my sticky review of the PB10-ISD on this Forum; scroll down to post #3 for more information.

Regards,
Wayne

**MrPorterhouse** · **08-19-06, 01:01 PM**

I can't wait to hear more about the SVS PB12-NSD. I haven't heard the new NSD version, but the NSD is an improvement over the PB12-isd, so it would be certain to be a significant step up from that Velodyne DPS10.

**Chrisbee** · **08-19-06, 05:11 PM**

For music consider the new SB12-Plus.

For HT consider two SB12-Plusses.

For good allround fun consider 4 x PB12-Plusses.

**RSH** · **08-20-06, 12:50 PM**

Check out the James Loudspeaker EMB series subwoofers http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/subwoofers.cfm - the most musical subwoofers I have ever heard regardless of the price.

**dsmith7000** · **08-20-06, 02:42 PM**

Hey, thanks for the info. I've been looking at both the recomended subs and they both have "BASH" amplifiers.. I'm not familiar with this, I did some reading and they aren't digital or AB, how exactly do these work and whats the advantages??
thanks

**dsmith7000** · **08-20-06, 02:47 PM**

Hey, sorry I should have given you more info in the first place.. I don't watch too many movies, mostly just music. I listen to everything from classic rock to hard rock to classical. my listening space is pretty much my whole house (which is only about 750 sq. feet) so it really cant be a huge sub. thanks
for all the help. I should also add that my main speakers are boston acoustic vr2s which sound great but have absolutely nothing under about 80hz, so the sub needs to sound good in the higher frequencies too.

**RSH** · **08-20-06, 04:40 PM**

dsmith7000,

If you are interested in how the Bash amplifiers work, here is one of the links http://www.bashaudio.com/technologies.htm - you can read all about it.

What I would do is go out there and listen to the subs. None of the specs will give you ability to really pick what you like the best - you really need to listen to the subwoofers. If you have a chance to take one home and listen it with your speakers, it would be even better.

The James Loudspeaker subwoofers are extremely musical. I have paired their EMB 1200 with Martin Logan reQuests. It is really hard to find a sub which will work quite well with these speakers. I tried many - Sunfire, SVS, Velodyne, etc... The James EMB 1200 was extremely easy to place, and it disappeared in the room. I could not even point to where it was when I closed my eyes... At the same time it was very tight and powerful.

**khellandros66** · **08-20-06, 07:38 PM**

SVS is hard to beat, especially now that they offer both ported and sealed designs. I would have to add my vote for them as well. Seeing as I listened to the HSU VTF-3MKii HO, which I wasn't thrilled about the sound, I would say that if you have an $900+ budget and want a ported design the PB12-NSD/2, PB12-Plus/2 and PB12-Ultra2 are extremely good. Phil M has one of the PB12-Ultra/2 and it is a force to be rekoned with.

~Bob

**Praetorian** · **08-20-06, 09:22 PM**

You could even stick with Velodyne and go for a sub in the dd series. I am pretty sure for 2k there is something in there...

**azjimmy** · **08-21-06, 10:45 AM**

DSmith,
I would second the recommendation for the SVS offering of the SB-12 Plus. http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rst-shots.html This is a link to the Shack article regarding the Press Release.It has line level and balanced inputs as well as speaker level if your receiver doesn't have bass management. Starting at $699 for micro-finish black, $749 for wood. Unbeatable at that price.
Before this whole thing de-volves into a "whose sub is better" thread, I'll just say this. Even SVS will tell you that there are better subs out there, but never at the price they offer. To get a comparable sub, you would have to spend two to three times the money. Plus you get that famous SVS customer service. Email Tom and Ron and see what they think. They won't steer you wrong.
Jim

**JCD** · **08-21-06, 12:53 PM**

First, I have to say my answer is based purely on information gathered from the members here as well as some of the other forums rather than on first hand knowledge..

Given that, if I were in the market for a sub, I'd go through the following if/then/else sequence:

1) Am I handy and have inclination to build my own? If yes, go to step 2, else go to step 4
2) Do I have room for an IB (infinite baffle) sub? If yes build IB and end, else go to step 3
3) Build box/tube sub. End.
4) Post question on SVS subforum here with dimensions of room, current setup, goals of sub

If you're up to a DIY project, a homebuilt sub is going to give you the best performance. There are several designs out there to choose from that will give you a great sub at a cost MUCH lower than buying retail. And if you can swing an IB sub, that will give you the BEST performance for all low frequency signals.

Now, if you don't have the skills, tools or inclination, I'm in the "SVS" camp. They have a great reputation for giving great performance at great prices with great customer support. Posting a message on the SVS subforum here at the Shack should net you a response from Tom V (one of the big mucky mucks over at SVS) with an honest answer of what he would consider to be the best sub for you regardless of cost.

As an alternative, the other sub that gets a lot of good press are those from Hsu. They are another internet only company offering some great performance/price subs. SVS gets my vote, but Hsu would be the runner up.

JCD

**dsmith7000** · **08-21-06, 09:31 PM**

I've been doing a lot of research on the svs subs and I'm likeing them, but I would like to hear one before I buy it... if there is anyone in the washington state area on here that has one let me know, if not I think I'll just get the 10"... thanks for all the help
derek

**dsmith7000** · **08-21-06, 10:37 PM**

Ok, few more questions, where can I buy the sb12-plus, do they make the same sub in a 10", and will I loose any accuaracy with the 12 instead of the 10. I was looking on av-sales.com, but I think they are in the UK... thanks

**JCD** · **08-22-06, 11:25 AM**

Quote:

dsmith7000 wrote:

Ok, few more questions, where can I buy the sb12-plus, do they make the same sub in a 10", and will I loose any accuaracy with the 12 instead of the 10. I was looking on av-sales.com, but I think they are in the UK... thanks

SVS is an internet only company -- Here is the link.

As for your questions, I'd ask them on our SVS subforum -- you'll get an answer directly from the manufacturer.

JCD

**Sonnie** · **08-22-06, 11:31 AM**

I believe the sub you'd be after is the PB10-NSD.

**Ayreonaut** · **08-22-06, 12:18 PM**

I visited the SVS showroom at their Ohio factory last week. I heard all of their ported subs, and all of their big subs are capable of literally "pants flapping" infrasonics.

Near reference level movie playback bottomed out the driver on the 16-46 cylinder sub. The shorter cylinders didn't bottom out, they have more midbass output capability with a small sacrifice in ultimate low end extension.

Like Wayne, I put "detail" very high on my list of priorities. I have a sealed 10", and none of the ported SVS subs (including the PB10-NSD) could touch it for detail. SVS is soon offering a sealed sub, and I'm eager to hear it.

I think detail is in the time domain. Check out the subwoofer reviews here by Ilkka and pay particular attention to the impulse response and spectral decay. There are only a few subs that exhibit strong LF output, low distortion and are well damped.

Quote:

Ilkka wrote:

...the output signal has to start and stop as quickly as possible without any overhang or ringing at any frequency. Impulse response measures the accuracy of the subwoofer. Good impulse response often correlates with accurate and snappy (some say 'fast'

) sound quality.

Quote:

Ilkka wrote:

Spectral decay graph shows the frequency response after the input signal has stopped...Spectral decay should be as fast as possible over as wide frequency range as possible.

**khellandros66** · **08-22-06, 12:44 PM**

Quote:

dsmith7000 wrote:

Ok, few more questions, where can I buy the sb12-plus, do they make the same sub in a 10", and will I loose any accuaracy with the 12 instead of the 10. I was looking on av-sales.com, but I think they are in the UK... thanks

Absolutely not, driver size does not determine accuracy. Amp selection, cabinet size, and driver quality are the real determining factors. Seeing that SVS uses TC-Sounds drivers that are exclusively designed for their boxes and desired results.

~Bob

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