Yet another what sub thread. Money no object, but must be suitable

**wilsonj** · **10-25-09, 04:45 PM**

I am building a dedicated HT room. Although I will also naturally play music also, but to a far lesser degree.
My equipment so far
Denon AVP-A1HD
Elektra T7 amplifier
Audyssey Sub EQ
JMlab 1027BEs
JMlab C1000BE

My room is only small at 17.4' x 13.5' and sloped ceiling. Giving a volume of around 2000ft3

The walls are solid plastered brick, with cement floor. The room is completel enclosed.

Now I really want 2 subs to address with room modes.

Due to space restrictions the larger subs will fit, but placement will be limited.

Choices

SVS PB13ultra x2 approx $3000AUD ea
Submersive x2 approx $3000AUD ea
JL F112 x2 $3610 ea
JL f113 x2 $4700 ea
others ??

The first two are obviously cheaper, but much larger.

I realise the JLs don't extend as low as the first two, but will that be a problem in a room of this size? I am expecting room gain to significantly increase this.

I have been offered a very good deal on the JLs, but time is ticking.

I would be grateful for peoples thoughts.

I should note that I am located in Australia, so not all the subs are available that are in the US. The Seaton would need to be imported, but wouldn't cost that much

Cheers
Jamie

**ironglen** · **10-25-09, 04:53 PM**

If you can't demo them, my guess is that someone will recommend you go with your aesthetic desires as these are all great subs, if in fact the size differences won't affect placement options in your room.

**wilsonj** · **10-25-09, 05:11 PM**

ironglen, thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately an audition is out. Especially in the room they will be going in. At least not without buying one of each.

**tonyvdb** · **10-25-09, 05:26 PM**

Any of the subs you mention are great, I personally like the PB13U as I have one of them however the JLF113's are also a tough to beat price for what you are getting. I am sure whatever two subs you go with in that list you will be very satisfied.

**wilsonj** · **10-25-09, 05:50 PM**

Thanks Tony,

Another question related mostly to JL. In this size room, will I really notice a difference between 2 F112s and 2 F113s???

**recruit** · **10-25-09, 05:57 PM**

Hi Jamie,

Its a nice position to be in with a cost no object to not make the decisions any harder, all the subs you have listed are of very high calibre and through all the data and feedback that is around for these subs I doubt you would be disappointed with any of them...

Ok the first selection SVS PB13 Ultras, this is a very popular choice as the subs produce prodigious amounts of bass and at very high SPL, this is at the expense of size for which they are very big indeed and this does affect a lot of people unless a dedicated room is where they are to be located, and even then it may still cause an issue due to space, also you get a simple but can be effective PEQ if simple tuning is required or 1 peak to deal with.

The second choice, the Seaton Submersive's, now there is not too much test data or feedback around compared to the SVS subs and I know of only 1 person who has one that I know of, but the people who do have moved from PB13's and have said that they are an improvement so that speaks volumes in it's self...size again is or could be an Issue but I very much doubt they would dissapoint.

The JL Audio subs, firstly the F112's now these would probably be the least performers but still offering good amounts of quality bass and they also have a good EQ system built in so setup would be simpler and some also prefer the smaller drive units which some may say are faster and therefore may potentially perform better for music, and are the smallest subs of the bunch

Now the F113's are the bigger of the JL subs and with the increased cone area you get higher SPL and more depth, also the EQ is a bonus and a worthy edition for setting up and size is certainly more compact compared to the SVS or Seaton offering.

decisions, decisions...all of them are excellent and a tough one for sure...

my first one to cross off would be the F112's as I would personally go for its better performing brother, it just makes more sense as they are so similar but with the F113 it will play louder and deeper for a little more money and I bet they would perform equally well with music, so it leaves the SVS, Seaton and F113.

Now if it were my money then after owning the SVS PB13, yes it is a great performer but if it can be bettered by the Seaton I am therefore more willing to bet that they would be the better choice over the SVS offerings or else you will always be left wondering what if..I would also feel this way with the JL F113 subs but they are beautiful to look at and also have a good EQ solution included and if size does bother then it would take some to beat them...

Ok I will stop my rambling and will say if it were my money I would take the bet on the new Seaton subs and throw in an SVS EQ1 to iron out any room issues that may be trouble some and I bet you would have one serious sub bass system

Edit: forget the EQ1 as I now see you have the Audyssey EQ anyway, so even better!!

Quote:

wilsonj wrote:

I am building a dedicated HT room. Although I will also naturally play music also, but to a far lesser degree.
My equipment so far
Denon AVP-A1HD
Elektra T7 amplifier
Audyssey Sub EQ
JMlab 1027BEs
JMlab C1000BE

My room is only small at 17.4' x 13.5' and sloped ceiling. Giving a volume of around 2000ft3

The walls are solid plastered brick, with cement floor. The room is completel enclosed.

Now I really want 2 subs to address with room modes.

Due to space restrictions the larger subs will fit, but placement will be limited.

Choices

SVS PB13ultra x2 approx $3000AUD ea
Submersive x2 approx $3000AUD ea
JL F112 x2 $3610 ea
JL f113 x2 $4700 ea
others ??

The first two are obviously cheaper, but much larger.

I realise the JLs don't extend as low as the first two, but will that be a problem in a room of this size? I am expecting room gain to significantly increase this.

I have been offered a very good deal on the JLs, but time is ticking.

I would be grateful for peoples thoughts.

I should note that I am located in Australia, so not all the subs are available that are in the US. The Seaton would need to be imported, but wouldn't cost that much

Cheers
Jamie

**sub_crazy** · **10-25-09, 11:54 PM**

Of the subs you listed I only have personally experience with the JL F113 as that was the last commercial sub I owned before going the DIY route. The JL was the last but also the best commercial sub I have ever owned. I did have a pair of SVS CS-Ultras which are different beasts then the PB13U but if they have a similar response then it would go that the SVS will give you more low end but the JL will have much better mid-bass. The JL was also a lot better with music than the SVS but then again it was better in that regard than any other sub I have owned.

If your main concern is movies though the submersives or PB13U will give you more output and headroom than the JL subs. With your size room though I can't imagine you would be unhappy with a pair of F112's or 113's and the bass quality would be outstanding.

Nice list of subs you have decided to choose from

**tonyvdb** · **10-26-09, 12:00 AM**

Quote:

wilsonj wrote:

In this size room, will I really notice a difference between 2 F112s and 2 F113s???

Not likely, I think two of any of the subs you listed will be more than enough to put a smile on your face.

**wilsonj** · **10-26-09, 03:54 PM**

Thanks everyone for the advice.

I think I have to rule the PB13 out, due to its size. Unless I can upholster it and use it as a chair, the second one would really be in the way!

The submersive appears to be the best performer of all of the subs, and is still one of the cheapest, if not the.

The JLs win for placement and looks, but loose on bottom end and price. Although I am still wondering if the bottom end will be that much different to the submersive in a small room like mine.
I have built a number of subs over the years, and am competant with REW. I've seen first hand what putting a speaker in a corner does.

I did consider making my own sub too. But I fear it would not perform as well as the ones I've listed, and end up bigger.

So now its down to F112s F113s and submersive.

Of the JLs I'm not sure I will notice the difference at normal listening levels. But then it must be a guy thing, because I can't rule out the F113.....

Maybe I could buy a submersive and f113 and compare!? Only prob is that I don't get as good price on a single F113.

Regards
Jamie

**sub_crazy** · **10-26-09, 04:18 PM**

The pair of JL's won't match the volume or depth of a pair of submersives but you have to consider it is a pair of 13" drivers in a small cabinet compared to 4 15" drivers in a big cabinet. Your comparing apples to oranges here.

I wouldn't rule out DIY either. The first sub I built outperformed the JL audio F113 for movies and was close for music. It wasn't exactly cheap but still a lot less than the F113. The Maelstrom X from diycable.com is an excellent 18" driver that would work great in a smaller sealed enclosure if driven by a powerful enough amp and EQ.

If you can fit the submersives then go for it but if not then you are not going to be disappointed with the F113's either. I would just make a few DIY subs and be done with it though as you can make them to fit your space and the performance if done right is incredible.

**recruit** · **10-26-09, 04:56 PM**

I have been seriously tempted by the JL Audio F113 subs in the past but I am also tempted by the Submersive too, oh bass is a wonderful thing

btw - it would be great if you could get both and then give us the full rundown/comparisons

**wilsonj** · **10-26-09, 11:44 PM**

Well at this stage I think I will get the submersives. The JLs are surely nice, but probably not worth the premium, given they won't perform quite as well. I am aware they also have a high pass filter in the teens. Good for safety, but not good for bass extension.

If the JLs performance was on par with the submersives, I would probably pay the extra, for the smaller nicer looking box.

**sub_crazy** · **10-27-09, 12:33 AM**

Sounds like a wise choice.

**Jon Liu** · **10-27-09, 01:03 AM**

I think that's the compromise you have to make, "Smaller, nicer looking box." In this hobby, size generally matters; and bigger usually is better. JL Audio defies that logic and produces a subwoofer that has a small overall size and outperforms many subs. Of course, quality subs like the Submersive still beat it, but at what cost? It's a larger sub and nowhere near as fancy looking as the Fathom.

I think the submersives are an excellent choice and I think you will be happy with them and you will be able to spend the money saved from opting out of the JL Audio subs elsewhere, too.

**recruit** · **10-27-09, 02:44 AM**

Quote:

wilsonj wrote:

Well at this stage I think I will get the submersives. The JLs are surely nice, but probably not worth the premium, given they won't perform quite as well. I am aware they also have a high pass filter in the teens. Good for safety, but not good for bass extension.

If the JLs performance was on par with the submersives, I would probably pay the extra, for the smaller nicer looking box.

Excellent choice Jamie, look forward to your feedback on the Seaton subs

**lsiberian** · **10-27-09, 10:42 AM**

If money isn't an object why not get a cabinet builder to build some custom cabinets. A single sealed Axis build will smoke the JL Audio subs.

Remember to always go for quality over quantity.

**sub_crazy** · **10-27-09, 02:01 PM**

Well if you are talking about Audiopulse/TC Sounds drivers then I would wait until December when the LMS 5400 18" comes out which is one of the best subwoofers available.
I like and own a pair of Axis 12's and a pair of TC-3000 15" which is the Axis equivalent and really like them but there mid-bass is a little wanting.

lsiberian, do you use the Axis and if so what size box, ported or sealed?

**wilsonj** · **10-27-09, 03:54 PM**

Guys, isn't an 18" DIY going to be too big?? It really needs to FIT in the room. Remeber I want 2.

One problem I see with using Pro amps also is that I want all my equipment in the equipment room, not out in the HT. This would require running 30+ feet of speaker cable, probably the thickness of my wrist (ok exaggerating a little)

A high quality plate amp would be the only solution I would consider. And I haven't seen many off the shelf units that produce equiv pro power levels. At least not at a reasonable price. I say reasonable, as I don't see much point in building a DIY sub that costs way more than something I can buy, that I know the performance of.

Where does one find this axis 15" driver?

**wilsonj** · **10-27-09, 06:08 PM**

Interestingly looking at Ilkka's charts http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...mpilation.html

The F113 doesn't fair too bad!! even at 12.5hz it still performs as good and better than most at any size. Remembering that I would have two of them so in room response down low should still be very good.

Actually nothing other than the 18" drivers and the PB13 out perform it at 12.5hz. Oh and the TC2000 in a 270L box ported.

So, I'm now wondering again.....

**sub_crazy** · **10-27-09, 10:02 PM**

I am telling you the F113 is an excellent sub that works wonders for the size of the cabinet. I have owned the F113 but not the submersive. It doesn't take rocket science to figure that the submersive with dual 15"s would play louder than the JL's single 13" though.

The LMS 5400 18" is an all out driver with a projected price of $1,600 each when it is available. I chickened out when I had a chance to buy one before and regret it since it is a lot more expensive now. The great thing about the LMS is it can be used in a decent sized enclosure for an 18" but it wants a lot of power.

Here is a couple of builds with the LMS 5400:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ft-sealed.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ld-thread.html

This one is awwwwe inspiring:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...sives-wow.html

The Axis 15" is not available right now until maybe December but to be honest with you it is a power hog too and the mid-bass on the JL is better. I replaced my F113 with the TC3000 15"(Axis) since for movies it was just more violent which I liked but for music I would choose the F113 over it anyday. I have a pair of TC-3000 15" which is the same as the Axis and am planning on making a pair of enclosures about 6 cubic feet with 2 15" passive radiators each. These should really light up the room in not just my house but the neighbors as well

I will probably only use 1 though and make a pair of smaller subs to handle the mid-bass.

Here is a build by the owner of this forum Sonnie using a pair of 15" Axis which is outstanding:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ing-pulse.html

You can't go wrong with either the F113 or Submersive. If you want a lot of quality bass in a small enclosure get the F113, if you want even more bass get the submersives. Either way this should be your reaction

**wilsonj** · **10-28-09, 01:09 AM**

Hi Sub_crazy,

thanks for your reply.

Will I really need more output, in my small solid brick walled pressure vessel? (room that is) I would imagine two F113s would put out more than enough bass. The submersives would be a step up again, Although possibly not as much as one might expect. The 4" excursion of the JL surely makes up a lot of ground. I'm not sure on the excursion of the submersives but I don't think they are excessive.

Just sent Mark an email on cost to ship to Australia.....

I'll get one submersive. If I decide its just too big then I'll sell it and try the JL. I'll take more of a hit selling a fathom than submersive.

Talk about flip flop!!

**sub_crazy** · **10-28-09, 01:58 AM**

A 18' by 14' room approx. would do very nicely with a pair of JL's. I had about the same dimensions in my old home and 1 F113 did just fine but that was in only 1 spot in the room which I got lucky with. In my new home that 1 JL would struggle but the room is much larger and even my Mal-X 18" struggles by-itself.

I am a nut about subwoofers as my name suggests and the JL audio really shocked my by how good it was. If I were not a DIY guy I would have definitely got a submersive to compare but now I would rather build one.

Your picking from 2 of the best commercial subs out there so it would be hard to make a bad choice.

I wish someone here who has had both subs would chime in.

**Jon Liu** · **10-28-09, 11:20 AM**

sub_crazy, if you get a chance, I suggest you check out the new PB13-Ultra. At half of the cost of the Fathom, I think it a fantastic contender. According to craigsub's subwoofer shootout from AVS and TweakCityAudio, the PB13-Ultra beats out the Fathom by a good decent margin.

In comparison, the PB-Ultra (TV-12 Driver) similar to the CS-Ultras you had didn't do nearly as well as the Fathom.

As a subwoofer fanatic, I think you would appreciate the differences, as well. I have yet to hear the Submersive, personally, but everyone I've talked to who has compared them to similar subs (F113, PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra, Epik Castle/Conquest, etc) said that the Submersive bests them.

**sub_crazy** · **10-28-09, 11:37 AM**

Thanks for the suggestion Jon,

I know SVS makes excellent products and there customer service is second to none. I have no doubt the PB13 is great but I was just going off of personal experience on the JL and everyone elses experience with the submersive which as you mentioned seems to be at the top of the heep.

I will probably never try a submersive or PB13 though as I am an addicted DIY subwoofer nut now. For the price of a PB13 I can build at least a pair of subs that would beat a single PB13 easily.

I don't really plan on owning anymore commercial subs for the foreseeable future as building subs in my limited spare time is a form of relaxation for me. I may try an occasional commercial offering only to compare to my own work and make sure I am near the top performance wise.

Which subs do you own Jon?

**Jon Liu** · **10-28-09, 06:34 PM**

I used to own the PB13-Ultra. I no longer use a sub. My mains handle all my low frequency effects now. I know, I know, you might ask how that can be... but, they can and they do!

In my room I get a flat response to pretty much 18Hz with my mains. My speakers provide cleaner and quicker low frequencies than any sub that I've heard to date as well. The PB13-Ultra even in sealed mode could not keep up with the agility, which is why I ultimately ended up selling it.

Before that, I owned the PC-Ultra (TV-12) and before that I owned the SVS 20-39PCi. Before that, it's not worth mentioning

. I've heard the Fathom on several occasions and relatively recently heard the Gotham, too. I really like the Gotham and the Fathom. If I had the money I'd spring for two Gothams just because they are pure works of art.

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