Sub woofer for 2 channel system

**lkeegan** · **09-17-07, 12:19 AM**

I'm looking for a smallish subwoofer for my 2 channel system, the mains being a pair of Sonus faber grand pianos. I've auditioned the REL 305 and it fills in the bottom but sounds a bit muddy. Any advise or recommendations? SVS SB12?

Thanks!

**JCD** · **09-17-07, 04:28 PM**

If the SVS is small enough for you, then I can wholeheartedly go for the SVS. Bang for the buck, I don't think there is any other company out there that can touch SVS.

JCD

**lkeegan** · **09-17-07, 05:05 PM**

Quote:

JCD wrote:

If the SVS is small enough for you, then I can wholeheartedly go for the SVS. Bang for the buck, I don't think there is any other company out there that can touch SVS.

JCD

Thanks - I'm going to audition one, I'll let you know how it goes...

**mojomike** · **09-17-07, 06:47 PM**

Do it. for music, the SB12 is superb.

**alexadams77** · **11-13-07, 02:27 PM**

How much money are you willing to part with for the sub and how big can you go for a sub?

**lkeegan** · **12-17-07, 09:55 PM**

Quote:

alexadams77 wrote:

How much money are you willing to part with for the sub and how big can you go for a sub?

Well, I can easily part with $2500 (of coures I'll have to spend same on jewelry), and size about like the SB12 or a bit bigger. Now I'm waiting for Ikka's new test results. The P12-ultra and F113 look really good.

**alexadams77** · **12-18-07, 04:48 PM**

I've always been told to buy the best you can afford. You're going to have the sub for a long time, so you want to make it a good one. I have the PC13 and I don't see me getting rid of it anytime soon. It shakes my entire house and it impresses me more and more as I listen to movie with good LFE. Another thing to remember is that the PC/PB13 is half the price of the F113, that's what sold me on it. The performance is roughly on par, with one review saying the other is better. It boils down to what you think is better. Customer support is amazing with SVS and I don't think that you could go wrong with getting one of their subs.

**warpdrive** · **12-19-07, 08:33 PM**

The F113 will be more than $2500 new, but the F112 will be doable and is pretty close. I'd also not count out the Velodyne DD12 or Paradigm Servo 15 (if you don't mind giving up the EQ features). I'd say the F112 and DD12 are great just because of the onboard EQ features which will tame the boominess of the sub placed in many rooms. Remember that "boominess" that you may be hearing could be a room peak which means that bass is exaggerated at certain frequencies making the sub sound "slow" or "overhang". That can be fixed by big room treatments and/or EQ.

I own the SB12 and can attain to its goodness with the most critical reference tracks I've thrown at it, but if I had more budget to allocate toward a sub, I'd easily go for either the Velo or JL

**funky_waves** · **12-20-07, 11:10 AM**

You may also want to consider a custom subwoofer from us. You can choose size and shape, within limits, and finish, as well as driver and amplifier, At the ~$2500 level we can match or exceed the performance of nearly anything else for the same price, and be customized to your tastes, and needs.

**lkeegan** · **12-20-07, 11:21 PM**

Quote:

warpdrive wrote:

The F113 will be more than $2500 new, but the F112 will be doable and is pretty close. I'd also not count out the Velodyne DD12 or Paradigm Servo 15 (if you don't mind giving up the EQ features). I'd say the F112 and DD12 are great just because of the onboard EQ features which will tame the boominess of the sub placed in many rooms. Remember that "boominess" that you may be hearing could be a room peak which means that bass is exaggerated at certain frequencies making the sub sound "slow" or "overhang". That can be fixed by big room treatments and/or EQ.

I own the SB12 and can attain to its goodness with the most critical reference tracks I've thrown at it, but if I had more budget to allocate toward a sub, I'd easily go for either the Velo or JL

Sorry about getting back as I've been out of town....

I really like the idea of eq features, and the Velo or DD look hard to beat for performance and significant other approval rating. I'll be auditioning the F113 and DD15 in the new year - too late for Christmas - maybe. Hmmm - going to Montreal for the holiday, maybe I can find a boxing day special.

**warpdrive** · **12-20-07, 11:39 PM**

I just noticed that you're in Canada. The one thing you should know is that the F113 or DD15 is completely overpriced in Canada. I think the list price of the F113 is something like $4999 CAD, and the DD15 is $4k or something. I think some people in Canada got the F113 for a good deal early on, but now since most dealers think the F113 is hot stuff, you are not likely to get anywhere near your $2500 budget.

I'd highly suggest you drive down to the US and find a dealer and you could save a lot of money. If you were in the US, you could pick up the F113 from an authorized dealer for around $3K USD.

If you are not willing to do that, then the SB12 is going to be your best choice. You could always buy an SMS1 which will give you the exact same EQ (but in a separate unit) as what's inside the DD series and you get the best of both worlds.

My SB12 does pretty well in my smallish room. Due to room gain, I get extension almost down to 20Hz which is superb for a small sub (note, this graph is my unadjusted frequency response, and you can see that it's pretty flat in the low-mid bass region)

**funky_waves** · **12-21-07, 12:02 PM**

FYI we are in the lower mainland of BC as well, so if you are interested in a custom sub, shipping would be a non issue as well as service, I would deliver it personaly and set it up for you using REW and a parametric EQ. If you contact me and can give me some info on your room, size constraints, and finish choice I will send you the specs of what I can provide within your budget so you can compare and make an informed decision.

**lkeegan** · **12-22-07, 02:12 PM**

Quote:

warpdrive wrote:

I just noticed that you're in Canada. The one thing you should know is that the F113 or DD15 is completely overpriced in Canada. I think the list price of the F113 is something like $4999 CAD, and the DD15 is $4k or something. I think some people in Canada got the F113 for a good deal early on, but now since most dealers think the F113 is hot stuff, you are not likely to get anywhere near your $2500 budget.

I'd highly suggest you drive down to the US and find a dealer and you could save a lot of money. If you were in the US, you could pick up the F113 from an authorized dealer for around $3K USD.

If you are not willing to do that, then the SB12 is going to be your best choice. You could always buy an SMS1 which will give you the exact same EQ (but in a separate unit) as what's inside the DD series and you get the best of both worlds.

My SB12 does pretty well in my smallish room. Due to room gain, I get extension almost down to 20Hz which is superb for a small sub (note, this graph is my unadjusted frequency response, and you can see that it's pretty flat in the low-mid bass region)

Thanks - the SB12 is good looking, and you have what looks like a really good plot. What size room are you in? Mine is about 20X13feet with an opening on the long wall to the dinning room. Your point on pricing is well taken - and if the dealers in BC don't come close to US pricing I will buy in the U.S. I don't mind paying a bit more, but will draw the line at something over 10%.

**warpdrive** · **12-22-07, 03:41 PM**

My room is about 18x12.

**MacDad2** · **12-23-07, 09:14 AM**

Keegan-

If you are going with one sub, unless you are really trapped on space then I would go with a slightly larger sub in order to get really clean musical sub bass/performance. I recently switched out a couple of smaller B&W and Sunfire subs for dual SVS PB12-Plus subs. I'm pretty sure one sub would have been adequate, but I had a couple of dead spots due to room modes in my old configuration to try and overcome..

Needless to say I am so happy with both music and HT performance with both subs up and running in a 4800 cubic feet room. The difference in smaller high performance subs vs. larger subs is night and day for a wannabe audiophile like myself.

Good luck..

Chris

**lkeegan** · **01-01-08, 06:43 PM**

Quote:

MacDad2 wrote:

Keegan-

If you are going with one sub, unless you are really trapped on space then I would go with a slightly larger sub in order to get really clean musical sub bass/performance. I recently switched out a couple of smaller B&W and Sunfire subs for dual SVS PB12-Plus subs. I'm pretty sure one sub would have been adequate, but I had a couple of dead spots due to room modes in my old configuration to try and overcome..

Needless to say I am so happy with both music and HT performance with both subs up and running in a 4800 cubic feet room. The difference in smaller high performance subs vs. larger subs is night and day for a wannabe audiophile like myself.

Good luck..

Chris

Thanks Chris - Just back from Christmas holiday so i'm a little late getting back. looking at the graphs, the PB12 or PB13 appear to develop really good low frequency with minimum distortion at a good price value. The PB13 looks like the one for me - I have a fairly large room open to the dining room.

Happy new year?

**warpdrive** · **01-01-08, 08:44 PM**

Quote:

lkeegan wrote:

Thanks Chris - Just back from Christmas holiday so i'm a little late getting back. looking at the graphs, the PB12 or PB13 appear to develop really good low frequency with minimum distortion at a good price value. The PB13 looks like the one for me - I have a fairly large room open to the dining room.

Happy new year?

I guess you don't care about the getting a "smallish" sub anymore if you are now considering something as large as the PB13

**lkeegan** · **01-05-08, 12:00 PM**

Quote:

warpdrive wrote:

I guess you don't care about the getting a "smallish" sub anymore if you are now considering something as large as the PB13

You're right - I got ahead of myself after looking at Ilkka's graphs. So I did the cardboard cut-out thing and the PB12 or 13 are just too big. What do you know of the REL505? - it's fairly small and fits my budget. I've already tried the SB12 and REL305 and neither really worked.

Thanks

**warpdrive** · **01-05-08, 12:11 PM**

What was wrong with the SB12? Just remember that room acoustics has an extremely profound effect on the quality of bass you hear so I'm wondering if it's a deeper issue than the sub itself. Boominess and muddiness has a lot to do with the frequency response of your room and sitting locations. Any of the REL's should sound good (wondering why you though the 305 was muddy). If anything, any of the REL's give up a lot of low bass impact for a smooth tapered bass response which is why people recommend them for music only applications

At this point, I'd suggest a Velodyne DD12, which is a lot more expensive, but has the build in visual EQ to analyze the bass (see the graph I posted above).

**funky_waves** · **01-05-08, 12:43 PM**

I agree with warpdrive, it sounds like you need to have the sub set up and eq'ed properly, just as an example of what we can biuld, for $1400, a 19"x19"x19" sealed subwoofer with the SDX15, and a biult in 1300w rms amplifier, finished in a variety of real wood veneers, or satin black. Or for a little more, high gloss black, or aluminum.
And because you are in our delivery area, for a small charge(the same as shipping would be for most) , I will deliver it and make sure it is set up properly for you.

**lkeegan** · **01-06-08, 01:46 AM**

Quote:

warpdrive wrote:

What was wrong with the SB12? Just remember that room acoustics has an extremely profound effect on the quality of bass you hear so I'm wondering if it's a deeper issue than the sub itself. Boominess and muddiness has a lot to do with the frequency response of your room and sitting locations. Any of the REL's should sound good (wondering why you though the 305 was muddy). If anything, any of the REL's give up a lot of low bass impact for a smooth tapered bass response which is why people recommend them for music only applications

At this point, I'd suggest a Velodyne DD12, which is a lot more expensive, but has the build in visual EQ to analyze the bass (see the graph I posted above).

Well...where to start.

The first thing I did was bring a REL R505 in for audition. The second thing that I did was buy it. The REL made my system sound wonderfull. But it wasn't enough. The next stop was to audition the Simaudio i7 - that happened tonight - OMG.

I'll order one on Tuesday when the audio shop opens. My 2 channel system sounds so good that my lovely wife wants me to audition the Simaudio Supernova!!!!.

I'll be broke but we'll be happy.....

Of course, she wants a new car as an equalizer. Thanks for all your help

**warpdrive** · **01-06-08, 10:15 AM**

cool. case closed then. Glad we could sort of help

**Steve.** · **04-06-08, 11:24 AM**

I auditioned a REL R-305 and really liked it however it was sensitive to room placement. In the room I auditioned it in it did sound a little muddy until I experimented with placement. Fortunately when I brought it home it sounded great in the old sub's position. It's used in a two channel system although I do play movies through it. For me it goes low enough and though it's specs suggest it doesn't go as low as other subs I think it sounds deeper than the Velodyne HGS 10 it replaced. It has better pitch definition and sounds better with music. I like this sub a lot.

**pegasusxls** · **07-16-08, 07:47 PM**

I am very interested in the REL Stentor III.I have Thiel CS6 mains,driven by Classe Cam-350s.I began hunting for a velo DD15 and then after researching I called a JL dealer about a f113 and he told me for my two channel system REL would be preferable.I have gotten a lot of positive feedback regarding the RELs for two channel listening.

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