Subwoofer Tests - Fall 2007

**Vaughan100** · **10-09-07, 06:03 AM**

But will you test the PB10 to confirm ? The next question I guess is when ?

I'm also surprised that the PB12-NSD performed so well against the 20-39 PC+. It basically outperformed it down at the lowest frequency measured. Even when using a low tune, the PB12 either matched or slightly pulled away.

Although higher up in the frequency range, the PC+ obviously took the lead. Still impressive for the NSD in my opinion.

--Regards,

**ssabripo** · **10-09-07, 07:08 AM**

you dawg!!! trying to get these tests under our feet, eh?

great stuff as always Ilkka....very interesting results to say the least.

**jakeman** · **10-09-07, 07:27 AM**

Quote:

Ilkka wrote:

The largest difference is that the AV Talk doesn't use the new CEA-2010 standard. It is currently the only safe and accurate method for determining the clean maximum SPL at every frequency (nine 1/3 octave wide bands in 12.5 - 80 Hz range). Traditional sine sweep method doesn't necessarily show the maximum SPL at all frequencies because the highest sweep doesn't show high/full compression at all frequencies. Usually compression is higher at lower frequencies, but higher frequencies are still relatively compression free at this sweep level.

Let's take the new SVS PB13-Ultra for example. You can see that there is already ~5 dB of compression near the tuning frequency (15-16 Hz), but only 1 dB or less at higher. That means that the highest sweep (110 dB) doesn't show the maximum output in the mid and upper bass range. I'm suspecting it would still have around 2-4 dB juice in the tank above ~30 Hz. So therefore one can not compare those figures with the CEA-2010 maximum output figures.

Recap: Our tests are pretty similar but there are some differences in measuring methods that can cause pretty significant differences if you don't know how to interpret them, and also depending of the subwoofers that you are comparing. If you want to compare some specific subwoofers, please let me know and I will help you to make the comparison more accurate.

AV Talk's test are really good and I applaud to Roger for performing them. If it would be easy or cheap to perform the test we take, more people would be doing them.

Outstanding contribution Illka for the way you have employed CEA-2010 measurements as the core of your testing methodology. It really is the best way to compare subs and in my opinion puts you now at the cutting edge of comparative measurements with AVtalk being a useful supplement. Well done, again.

Regarding the Fl113, at what frequencies and conditions did you see compression?

**Ilkka** · **10-09-07, 07:44 AM**

Quote:

jakeman wrote:

Outstanding contribution Illka for the way you have employed CEA-2010 measurements as the core of your testing methodology. It really is the best way to compare subs and in my opinion puts you now at the cutting edge of comparative measurements with AVtalk being a useful supplement. Well done, again.

Thank you, John.

Quote:

Regarding the Fl113, at what frequencies and conditions did you see compression?

This is a bit too specific question at this point. I think you have to wait for the full results.

But let's just say that the f113 has pretty strong limiters and that there is considerable amount of deep bass (below 30-40 Hz) compression at high output levels. But in overall the f113 is pretty incredible performer for its size. Sure it's really expensive but that's the price you have to pay.

**Vaughan100** · **10-09-07, 08:59 AM**

Ilkka, any idea when you might test the PB10 ? I'm thinking of upgrading to either an Epik Valor or dual PB10's. My only requirement is that I want twice the clean output of the PB10.

I'm hoping that an Epik Valor will be able to match or exceed dual Pb10's with it's 15" high excursion driver.

--Regards,

**ISLAND1000** · **10-09-07, 09:03 AM**

Ilkka, what a historic event you've staged! Your tests will be talked about for a long long time. The individual performance of these spectacular sub units will provide canon fodder between opposing sides as to which sub does it's job better, cheaper, louder, more faithfully with less distortion than the others.
Congratulations on a job well done.
Oh, and by the way, you don't have to keep apologizing for the unfinished appearance of the LMS enclosures. We, us DIYers, all understand you were under extreme pressure to show the performance figures as soon as possible. Being unfinished however allowed us to see the quality build you've done in such a short period of time. The series of photos and test results tell us you are truly a scientist, engineer, and audiophile to be admired.

**jakeman** · **10-09-07, 09:13 AM**

Quote:

Ilkka wrote:

Thank you, John.

This is a bit too specific question at this point. I think you have to wait for the full results.

But let's just say that the f113 has pretty strong limiters and that there is considerable amount of deep bass (below 30-40 Hz) compression at high output levels. But in overall the f113 is pretty incredible performer for its size. Sure it's really expensive but that's the price you have to pay.

Ok Illka, I look forward to the specifics. It is an incredible performer... measurements and listening tests considered, and my favourite sub these days. But the price does reflect diminishing returns compared to many other excellent subs especially the DIY units.

**Vaughan100** · **10-09-07, 09:14 AM**

Leave out the audiophile part.

--Regards,

**ISLAND1000** · **10-09-07, 09:28 AM**

Quote:

Vaughan100 wrote:

Leave out the audiophile part.

--Regards,

Why? What's he got . . . . wax in his ears!

**Ilkka** · **10-09-07, 09:37 AM**

Quote:

Vaughan100 wrote:

Ilkka, any idea when you might test the PB10 ? I'm thinking of upgrading to either an Epik Valor or dual PB10's. My only requirement is that I want twice the clean output of the PB10.

I'm hoping that an Epik Valor will be able to match or exceed dual Pb10's with it's 15" high excursion driver.

--Regards,

I have already tested the PB10, actually twice. You can see its results (not the CEA-2010) in the subwoofer tests sub-forum.

I haven't tested the Epik Valor (their amps do not support 230V), but I'm pretty it doesn't have twice the clean output of the PB10, at least when it comes to deep bass frequencies. Up higher that might be possible. If you want a clear upgrade, you need a larger ported subwoofer, or two.

**Ilkka** · **10-09-07, 09:49 AM**

Quote:

Vaughan100 wrote:

Leave out the audiophile part.

--Regards,

**Hiroyuki Sakai** · **10-09-07, 10:47 AM**

Ikka, GJ on the testing

Those 2x sealed SDX15 looks very interisting

**Vaughan100** · **10-09-07, 11:03 AM**

I said "leave out the audiophile part" because the word "audiophile" and "scientist" are usually mutually exclusive, hence my wording. Sorry if anyone was offended.

--Regards,

**Vaughan100** · **10-09-07, 11:07 AM**

Sorry, Ilkka, perhaps I didn't get my point across. I know that you've measured the PB10, but what I would really like is for you to test the PB10 using the new testing method so that I can compare my subwoofer to all the others listed.

Thanks.

--Regards,

**Ilkka** · **10-09-07, 11:20 AM**

Quote:

Vaughan100 wrote:

Sorry, Ilkka, perhaps I didn't get my point across. I know that you've measured the PB10, but what I would really like is for you to test the PB10 using the new testing method so that I can compare my subwoofer to all the others listed.

Thanks.

--Regards,

Yes, I did get it. I haven't performed the CEA-2010 test on the PB10, but that doesn't mean one couldn't extrapolate its performance by looking at the other measurements. I already said that if you subtract around 1-1.5 dB from the BK Monolith-DF's numbers, you're golden.

**Vaughan100** · **10-09-07, 11:52 AM**

Okay, cool. Thanks !

--Regards,

**ISLAND1000** · **10-09-07, 12:02 PM**

Quote:

Vaughan100 wrote:

I said "leave out the audiophile part" because the word "audiophile" and "scientist" are usually mutually exclusive, hence my wording. Sorry if anyone was offended.

--Regards,

You didn't harm anyone. I was just trynna find a fun way to "Gush" over what Ilkka had accomplished and probably over did it a little.
Ilkka however is and always has been very humble . . . . .

**ISLAND1000** · **10-09-07, 12:07 PM**

I notice at this very moment by observing the little green dot next to each members profile that there are LOTS of members pouring over all the latest info from Ilkka. Another testament to his timely work.

**Vaughan100** · **10-09-07, 12:11 PM**

If we take the 16 hz measurement, the BK Monolith scored 88 dB's. Subtract 1.5 dB's and you get 86.5 dB's. So that is what my PB10 should score ?

I think Tom V has mentioned that the PB12 NSD is about 2-3 dB's louder across the frequency spectrum compared to the PB10. Compared to the 88.6 dB result, the PB12 NSD scored 96 dB's at 16 hz. That is a 8 dB difference. That is like saying that a PB12 is more than twice a PB10 in clean output, coupled.

Something is amiss. I think Tom Vonhanel has once said that dual PB10's are comparable to a single PB12 Ultra in low distortion output. And the figures posted are even more than that.

--Regards,

**Exocer** · **10-09-07, 12:57 PM**

Ilkka, thanks a lot for bearing the brunt of all this testing for all of us DIYers to feast on...You are da' man!

Oh, and as someone else said, the dual SDX-15 does like intriguing...It truly is an awesome size/price/performance ratio.

Keep up the good work.

**cjwhitehouse** · **10-09-07, 12:57 PM**

Quote:

jakeman wrote:

Outstanding contribution Illka for the way you have employed CEA-2010 measurements as the core of your testing methodology. It really is the best way to compare subs and in my opinion puts you now at the cutting edge of comparative measurements with AVtalk being a useful supplement. Well done, again.

Regarding the Fl113, at what frequencies and conditions did you see compression?

Congratulations, Ilkka on another set of interesting results. I look forward to the full run-down.

Assuming that this "really is the best way to compare subs", according to the Ultra Low Bass ranking above, it appears that the best commercial offering currently available is the SVS 20-39PC+ with 12.3 driver in 20Hz tune. All those Fathom owners seem to have wasted their money!

**Sonnie** · **10-09-07, 12:58 PM**

Quote:

Vaughan100 wrote:

If we take the 16 hz measurement, the BK Monolith scored 88 dB's. Subtract 1.5 dB's and you get 86.5 dB's. So that is what my PB10 should score ?

I think Tom V has mentioned that the PB12 NSD is about 2-3 dB's louder across the frequency spectrum compared to the PB10. Compared to the 88.6 dB result, the PB12 NSD scored 96 dB's at 16 hz. That is a 8 dB difference. That is like saying that a PB12 is more than twice a PB10 in clean output, coupled.

Something is amiss. I think Tom Vonhanel has once said that dual PB10's are comparable to a single PB12 Ultra in low distortion output. And the figures posted are even more than that.

--Regards,

Ice10... I don't think your post will be related to the thread topic. It would probably be best if you start a new thread to discuss it so that this one does not get derailed. Thanks...

**Ilkka** · **10-09-07, 01:14 PM**

Quote:

Vaughan100 wrote:

If we take the 16 hz measurement, the BK Monolith scored 88 dB's. Subtract 1.5 dB's and you get 86.5 dB's. So that is what my PB10 should score ?

I think Tom V has mentioned that the PB12 NSD is about 2-3 dB's louder across the frequency spectrum compared to the PB10. Compared to the 88.6 dB result, the PB12 NSD scored 96 dB's at 16 hz. That is a 8 dB difference. That is like saying that a PB12 is more than twice a PB10 in clean output, coupled.

Something is amiss. I think Tom Vonhanel has once said that dual PB10's are comparable to a single PB12 Ultra in low distortion output. And the figures posted are even more than that.

--Regards,

You shouldn't look at the 16 Hz alone. The PB12-NSD is much stronger there due to lower tuning and better driver. If you take the averaged Monolith numbers and subtract 1.5 dB, you'll get 101 dB and 104.1 dB. That's 1.9 dB and 4.6 dB less than what the PB12-NSD delivers. That's 2-4 dB (average) louder across the frequency spectrum compared to the PB10, just like TV said.

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