Woofing through the ages - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 28 Old 12-20-07, 06:10 PM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

warpdrive wrote: View Post
SVS, eD, Hsu, Epik are catering to the Internet Savvy, High Value Buyer that wants all out performance without regard to box size. They are filling the niche left by the mainstream sub makers.
These subs take advantage of all the latest advances in technology, materials, and techniques and even the above boxes ARE smaller than 20 years ago. I built Karlson, Bass Reflex, EV folded horns, RCA theater speakers, and James Lansing clones that were 12 to 20 cubic feet.
There's no need to build enclosures like they did 20 years ago unless you have a particular driver or drivers that benefit from LLT or IB configuration and you wanna scare the family with 6 kids in the next block!
Twenty years ago there WAS no discussion about reproducing 10HZ . . . . there was no driver that could do that at noticeable volumes.
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post #12 of 28 Old 12-27-07, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Woofing through the ages

I don't think that one approach is (ie large versus small) is necessarily better than another. It is a matter of recognizing what is important to you and them choosing product accordingly. Let's say you live in a small appartment in a large urban centre. For you maximum output is a non-issue because of your neighbours. Getting flat output to below 30 hz is also likely a non-issue because your room is likely too small to naturally support frequencies in that range. For you the size of the sub and its ability to match with your main speakers is of utmost importance. For you the Sunfire ultra-compact subs would be a great choice. For someone else (like me perhaps), a large sub would be a better choice (I have a large house with a reasonably sized acoustically treated room, and no neighbours to complain). My main considerations are getting the flattest output to at least 20 hz and output at THX reference levels. I have the space to do that with large boxes. I think that in general (both in audio and in life) we are trying to pidgeon hole people into too few categories. I think that having a variety of products on the market from microsubs (like the Sunfire) to highly engineered mid-sized subs (like JL Audio and the Velodyne DD18) to large simple boxes (like HSU, SVS and the numerous DIY solutions on the market) means that each person can get what they want and need (assuming they are willing to realistically assess those wants and needs).

Getting back to the original topic, I think it is possible to say that the changes in the subwoofer market are simply progress, but the question is really "Is progress always a good thing?". The sound that I am getting out of my mono system based on an old Goodham driver with a University horn tweeter in a Karlson enclosure let's me get far closer to the performer in many ways (midrange purity, timing, and emotional impact) than my stereo system that clearly measures better and has a much more extended frequency response. In this case progress is just different as opposed to being better. If you are looking for a smaller subwoofer box, I clearly concede that there has been much progress in the last 20 years. If you are simply listening to music or movies and not focusing on specs and technological one-upmanship I am less convinced that we have progressed very far.

Just one guys not so humble (how humble can it really be if I have posted it on an internet forum) opinion
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post #13 of 28 Old 12-28-07, 09:59 AM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

Do not smaller rooms help to get very low freqs? Since room gain increases the lower you go?
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post #14 of 28 Old 12-28-07, 10:48 AM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

bobgpsr wrote: View Post
Do not smaller rooms help to get very low freqs? Since room gain increases the lower you go?
They DO . . . . not?
But there is a point of diminishing return.
I put my entire HT system and a recliner in a small closet to "take advantage of the room gain". That was really good for bass but it sucked for having any visitors.
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post #15 of 28 Old 01-25-08, 11:12 PM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

I come down on the side of, if the new technology is coupled with the maximally efficient design the sound has to be better. This assumes that you have the space, neighbors, spouse and fortitude to enjoy it

My reasoning goes like this;

Assume that you acquire a superior driver(s), design a no compromise enclosure and power it with an amplifier that is double or more of the rated capability of the drivers, place it in an optimal location in the room. The coupling of the driver to the enclosure will undoubtedly provide maximal efficiency. Generally one of the rules in speaker design is that the more power required to attain a specific nominal SPL the greater distortion, and the lower the dynamic headroom.

The distortion comes from everywhere, the electrical outlet, amplifier, overheated voice coils etc. When you add in the squaring of power to yield 3 db of SPL you can see that the headroom disappears rapidly as well.

If you use the same driver with the same or different electronics and compromise the enclosure, additional power will be required to acheive similar spl. At a minimum the dynamic headroom will be reduced, I also believe that distortion will be increased.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe if you couple "old school" with new technology you can get better results than either one separately. By way of example, I give you this; http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainm...alSO.htm&intro


Last edited by aceinc; 01-25-08 at 11:29 PM.
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post #16 of 28 Old 01-31-08, 10:42 PM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

Well, i havent had to much experience with WOOFING through the ages lol, i do realize that i prefer (so far) my HPM-100 connected to a technics su-7700 over anything i have had by far! I mean wow, these speakers give so much bass that is rich and deep, and the best part is the cones aren't rotted out, because they were made with some good material lol. I just love these speakers compared to today's, although obviously a pair of 2000$ tower speakers would definetely provide more better sound, but these speakers are over 30 years old, and it seems i use them for all of what i need. Down side, they are heavy, and the amp doesnt have dolby surround ect, but i think back in the day, they new what they were doing with alot of those products.
post #17 of 28 Old 02-01-08, 01:13 AM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

Just curious if anyone here remembers when the Sunfire True Sub first came out. I think I still have the Stereo Review magazine where the editor was looking for a giant 18" hidden somewhere. Talk about a new beginning.
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post #18 of 28 Old 02-01-08, 09:02 AM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

Wasn't that another creation of Bob Carver's? What a guy! I would say (he) more than any one product development has changed the shape, sound , and size of todays electronics.
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post #19 of 28 Old 02-01-08, 10:42 AM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

Speaking of Carver, when I was a bench tech years ago, I would have to measure total output and THD on any amp we fixed, along with a few other tests, so we could verify that the equipment was up to snuff. I remember testing my first Carver amp. It tested way better than the specs called for. I can even remember how the amp looked with the cover off! Didn't he get the class D amp idea going? Dennis

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post #20 of 28 Old 02-01-08, 11:05 AM
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Re: Woofing through the ages

I still remember when Sunfire came out too. The subs were interesting but it was all the write ups on the Tracking Down Converter power supply(I think that's what he called it) in the Sunfire amps that was the real news.
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