Axiom

[ACGREEN]

Anyone have experience with Axiom subwoofers? I have my room wired for 4 subwoofers and only have a velodyne FSR-1500. It is time to start adding sub's. Looking at another Velodyne, SVS, HSU, Axiom, B&W.

[mike c]

I have the axiom ep500. not talking about price, it's good enough for music, but insufficient for HT. (it doesn't extend low enough and loud enough) but with price involved, there are other subwoofers that will trounce it ten times over.

look at the SVS PB13 Ultra for usage in both HT and music.

[Sheep]

When doubling up subwoofers, it could be hit or miss if they're not of the same make and model. Naturally, it would be wise to purchase multiple subwoofers at a time, and I hear it's an acoustical no-no to use 3 (or any odd number for that matter, though more then 3 is 5, and 5 is a LOT. It would make more sense to get 4 better subwoofers).

HTH,
SheepStar

[jakewash]

Axiom makes some really good subs the EP500 and EP600 will shake the foundations if you want. They also blend nicely with the main speakers for 2.1 listening to music.

The SVS PB 13 Ultra is in the same price range as the EP600 and the EP 600 has tons of power. The EP 500 is the little brother of the 600 and it too can shake things up very nicely. I have seen reviews that compared the 2 and they were rated about the same, some prefered the Axiom others the SVS.

I think in that price /performance range you can't go too wrong.

[mike c]

like you said, the ultra 12 was rated the same as the axiom ep500.

the ultra 13 will trounce the ep500 or the EP600 like there's no tomorrow.

[jakewash]

The Ultra 13 does sound good on paper, I usually try to match the sub to a room size. If you have a really large room the Ultra 13 would be a good bet, other wise the extra power is just extra power.

I had a HSU STF3-MK2 in my meager 12x28x8 room and I had stuff falling off the shelves and it was calibrated to the same SP levels as the rest of the speakers. So room size is important. The EP500 was even worse or is that better?

I guess it also depends on whether or not you like your sub/bass to be dominant over the rest of the system or blend in.

And let's not forget we are talking about sound waves you feel more than you hear.

[mike c]

there's a gain control on the back of the sub and the receiver to control "extra power"
the more headroom you have, the less distortion there is.
the less distortion there is, the more accurate it is.

but there's no control for crappy THD/power compression results.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-2nd-test.html
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-tune-new.html

[bobgpsr]

^^^ Well said!

[jakewash]

Well, if you are controlling that extra power then you never get it. As long as you stay with in the limits of the amp in the sub then the THD is minimal just like any amp.

If the music you are listening to only has a dynamic range of 10 db and you listen at 75 db and sit 8-10' away, your amp only needs to be 2 watts to cover the head room with moderately sensitive speakers(91db). Do subs not have to follow the same laws of physics? 1600W subs are not needed in this scenario and you have wasted money.

So again I say it still comes down to room size and how loud you want it to go.

And right from the reviewer of your links to the EP600 "Surprisingly it doesn't sound that bad to a human ear, probably because it consists mainly out of 2nd and 3rd harmonics".

Which supports my own opinion that you still have to listen and make your own judgements.

[mike c]

yes, you have to listen to different subwoofers to appreciate if there IS or ISN'T an audible difference. I would recommend that you do the same ... i'm not actually pulling things out my ...



and you are talking about overall SPL when it comes to speaker sensitivity, with subs, we talk about how specific frequencies require MORE watts than another higher frequency at the same SPL. the lower you go, the more power you need.

you'd be surprised how much better it is to have headroom you say you don't need. and how big of a difference there is between the axiom and the other subs in that pic.

[jakewash]

I admit I am at a disadvantage up here in Canada as I have listened to most of the readily available mainstream subs and Axioms are somewhat overpriced for what they are, compared to SVS and HSU but uphere the shipping costs eliminate the HSU and SVS from contention.(I guess I should have mentioned this in my original response)

How many in that picture cost $1000-1600 or less besides the SVS PB 13 and Axiom 500? I have little doubt the PB13 pounds out better than the Axioms(It should the axiom has a meager 500W), But I am not so sure I would like the way it sounds (who am I kidding I would like it), but while listening at normal levels 75 - 80 db on the mains, is the extra headroom of the SVS in use but maybe a few milliseconds at a time over an entire movie or cd? Is that few milliseconds worth the extra money, to some yes; to others no.

I am not saying you don't need head room I am saying you don't need gobs of it to produce a decent sounding sub at normal listening levels for the average Joe. I know the size of the driver creates a lower tone and in order to move the driver efficiently it takes power and more of it the bigger the drivers go, but 1600W 18" drivers, for a couple lower frequencies?

I am trying to keep things within the range of most people, not true audiophiles that will spend any amount as long as the product is better than what they have. That $1600 mark is the absolute extreme top end I would ever go to buy a sub, $1000 is even pushing it for me.

What are your recomendations be for a sub in the price range of $500-$1000?

BTW, are those ED's in the middle? I have been wondering what the lower end ones(obviously) are like, their site shows free shipping uphere.

[mike c]

while i do understand that canadian shipping and taxes are high... it's nowhere near the costs I pay to ship to Manila, Philippines some thousand miles away. I purchased my axiom subwoofer in canada as well, and had it shipped here.

but let's talk about Axiom SRP which was 1100 USD when I purchased it, and the Velo DLS-5000R which was 800 USD which I purchased locally. the cheaper velo does the same job for a lot less money. the axiom is tuned to 25hz. but it has EQ boosts below that frequency which I suspect is what causes unnatural THD (like the velo). and as far as I know, that velo is priced nowhere near 800 bucks over there and just recently was put on good deals in canada.

again, let's not just talk about headroom, let's bring into the equation, THD, group delay, power compression. (measurements of which are available here at the shack and at AVTALK) ... until you hear the difference between the axiom and other low THD and good power compression subs. you're just not getting "accurate" music.

my recommendation of a below 1k USD sub, right here right now?
SVS PB12NSD (measurements available here at the SHACK) http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...2-nsd-new.html
eD A7S-450 (700-800 bucks) + REW BFD would be a killer combo

i can't recommend AV123 because I have not heard them myself. and I can't recommend epik because they don't even post specs.

[jakewash]

Thanks so much for the input, I just did a quick check and that Velo is on sale for $699, Reg. $1015, now you why Axiom can charge what they do.

Would the eD A7S-450 still be good with out the REW BFD?

(I think my own frustration at not finding what I have been looking for was showing through)

[mike c]

im sure it would still be good. but with REW and a BFD, you can tailor it do whatever you want to do ... e.g. boosting the low end for maximum extension or just tailoring it to your room. if you're not the adventurous type, next option is the Velodyne SMS-1 but it will cost a lot more than the BFD. I do have two of the SMS-1's and it's a super addition to any sub.

i've also used REW before and it has more resolution that the sms-1 and it's free too.

[Sheep]

Lets not forget that a subwoofer is in no way a permanent piece in any home, and one day you may require the extra power and headroom for a larger listening space.

SheepStar

[jakewash]

That's what the money tree is for.

[jaxvon]

As others have mentioned, it is best to get matching subwoofers to ensure you don't get strange issues. You also picked the right number of subwoofers to wire your room for. Four subwoofers, one centered on each wall, is the best way to get good bass all over your room. This was the focus of a fairly recent article from Floyd Toole. As for recommendations, I can't support Axiom, as the above linked measurements would imply. SVS makes good products, though you can create some monsters if you're willing to DIY. I think 4 Infinity 12VQ subs in large, low tuned enclosures would make for some insanely powerful and insanely accurate bass. At $200/driver at the high end, and a cost of $700 for amplification (2xEP2500), you could have all four subs out the door for $2000. This of course would negate your prewiring, so it might not be the best choice. For powered subs, I think SVS is the king for value on great subs that go LOW.

[Sheep]

jaxvon wrote:

As others have mentioned, it is best to get matching subwoofers to ensure you don't get strange issues. You also picked the right number of subwoofers to wire your room for. Four subwoofers, one centered on each wall, is the best way to get good bass all over your room. This was the focus of a fairly recent article from Floyd Toole. As for recommendations, I can't support Axiom, as the above linked measurements would imply. SVS makes good products, though you can create some monsters if you're willing to DIY. I think 4 Infinity 12VQ subs in large, low tuned enclosures would make for some insanely powerful and insanely accurate bass. At $200/driver at the high end, and a cost of $700 for amplification (2xEP2500), you could have all four subs out the door for $2000. This of course would negate your prewiring, so it might not be the best choice. For powered subs, I think SVS is the king for value on great subs that go LOW.

I second this. Avaserfi's Infinity appears to be an absolute monster, capable of producing more clean SPL then 2 MFW-15s corner loaded. Can't wait to start mine.

SheepStar

[avaserfi]

Sheep wrote:

I second this. Avaserfi's Infinity appears to be an absolute monster, capable of producing more clean SPL then 2 MFW-15s corner loaded. Can't wait to start mine.

SheepStar

The Infinity Kappa VQ is an extremely well designed driver as shown by Ilkka's tests here on the HTS (1 2). Do note that these measurements are of the Perfect 12 which is almost the same exact driver as the VQ, but the VQ is more versatile due to its variable Q and BL. Simply put the Kappa Perfect and VQ series are simply superb drivers for a DIY application.

As far as my build out performing two corner loaded MFW-15s that is slightly suspect. As no truly useful (ground plane etc..) measurements of the MFW have been made; at the same time I have been unable to take such a measurement with my subwoofer. Thus, the comparison of SPL output from my subwoofer and the dual MFWs was a mid-room measurement of my Infinity build documented here and Craigsub's corner loaded max SPL test. I would prefer waiting for actual, real and usable, measurement of the MFW are released before making a definitive statement, but based on what I have seen from the MFW design there are certain compromises I was not willing to take with my own and would be surprised if above the tuning frequency I used (20Hz) the Infinity was out performed.

If you are interested in building subwoofers I strongly suggest looking into the VQ and am more than willing to help model and design the cabinet for you. If you are simply interested in purchasing a subwoofer I would have to say Mike is leading you in the right direction.