Help w/ Behringer EP2500 -- DOA???

**Otto** · **08-12-06, 03:47 PM**

Hi there,

Got a brand new EP2500 a couple days ago from PE via Amazon, but I think it's DOA... I've tried a variety of configurations, but I get very little output, even at max gain. I cannot believe that this can be correct...

I've connected it in briged mode, with the DIPs set this way:

DIP Switches.jpg

Those settings should mean

1. clip limiter ch 1 on
2. low cut filter ch 1 30 hz
3. low cut filter ch 1 off
4. stereo inputs
5. stereo inputs
6. bridge mode on
7. bridge mode on
8. low cut filter ch 2 off
9. low cut filter ch 2 30 hz
10. clip limiter ch 2 on

I also set the DIPs as indicated for "mono-briged mode" on pg 8 of the manual and the results were the same. I don't think it's a DIP setting problem.

I wired the Speakon connector using the +1 and +2 terminals, as requested on the back of the unit. I also tried using +1/-1 and +2/-2 in the stereo configurations.

Here's the wiring request from the back panel, as well as my single speaker connection:

SpeakerConnection.jpg

Here's the pinout diagram from the manual:

Instructions.jpg

And here's the +1/+2 connection as I made it:

Speakon.jpg

As far as inputs, I'm using a balanced connection from my Outlaw 990 directly to the EP2500. I have been using this same connection to a BFD to a powered sub, and it works fine. I opened up the sub and was wiring in the 2500 to get more power than the sub's internal amp, basically just to see if I like it better, and to test the 2500.

When I turn everything on, I get very little output at the driver. I can hear it a little, and I can feel it if I put my hand on it, but even at max gain on the 2500, there ain't much. I would have expected to be using relatively little of the amp's power. My music is turned up to a reasonable volume that I would expect a little more cone movement...

I measured resistance at the Speakon connector tabs with one driver hooked up and I got 7.6 ohms, with 2 in parallel, it was about 4 ohms. No dead short that I can tell, and only a single speaker cable.

I also tried using it in stereo mode, and things seemed a little louder. The "signal" light on the front panel of the 2500 will blink with the beat, but I'm still getting very little output. I had expected a need to be very careful in cranking on the gain knob of the 2500, but I can easily turn it all the way up.

If I use an unbalanced connection, I just get hiss -- no music at all as far as I can tell. I'm using this (which also previously worked with the BFD before I broke out the balanced cable):

Unbalanced.jpg

Finally, in the bridged mode, at one point the clip was just on steady and I got no output. I power cycled several times and got the same result. It finally went away, but I don't know why.

So, am I missing something? I think everything is wired correctly, and I think the DIPs are set right. I'm going to continue playing with it, but if anyone sees that I did something stupid, lemme know! Else I have to get a return from Amazon/PE.

So help me out! WAF goes down, down, down when this kind of starts happening

Mess.jpg

**Otto** · **08-12-06, 04:34 PM**

Well, I can get output now. Not sure what changed. I still think there's some flakiness going on here, but I'm going to have to put it on hold for today...

**Sonnie** · **08-12-06, 08:32 PM**

I think Darren went through an ordeal with getting his set right... maybe he'll chime in.

**dalucifer** · **08-15-06, 11:32 AM**

ya, for some reason those are kinda fickle. Took me a couple different tries to get the settings correct...

**Darren** · **08-15-06, 12:24 PM**

One thing you might want to check is that your reciever is putting out a strong enough signal for a Pro amp...most do but some do not in which case a line level booster is needed.

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **08-15-06, 12:24 PM**

Otto,

A couple of things jump out at me.

Quote:

I had expected a need to be very careful in cranking on the gain knob of the 2500, but I can easily turn it all the way up.

As a pro audio amp, the EP2500 is designed for the higher input signals pro equipment use. So the problem you’re having is not enough level on the input signals. Also, keep in mind that the gain controls are attenuators, not a “volume control.” The former reduces input gain, the latter increases output gain.

So, what you need to do is turn the gains all the way up, and then increase the pre-pro’s sub level as needed.

Also, the manual notes that when in running bridged, the Channel 1 controls take precedent. The Channel 2 gain control should be turned completely off to prevent signal cancellation. If you had the #2 gain control up, that might account for both the low output and the signal hiss

Regards,
Wayne

**dalucifer** · **08-15-06, 12:54 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

Otto,

A couple of things jump out at me.

As a pro audio amp, the EP2500 is designed for the higher input signals pro equipment use. So the problem you’re having is not enough level on the input signals. Also, keep in mind that the gain controls are attenuators, not a “volume control.” The former reduces input gain, the latter increases output gain.

So, what you need to do is turn the gains all the way up, and then increase the pre-pro’s sub level as needed.

Also, the manual notes that when in running bridged, the Channel 1 controls take precedent. The Channel 2 gain control should be turned completely off to prevent signal cancellation. If you had the #2 gain control up, that might account for both the low output and the signal hiss

Regards,
Wayne

I experienced this aswell....The sub pre out signal on my receiver was very weak aswell...

**Wayne A. Pflughaupt** · **08-15-06, 03:31 PM**

Quote:

I experienced this aswell....The sub pre out signal on my receiver was very weak as well...

Which only makes me wonder: Can home equipment provide enough input signal for these amps to deliver their maximum output? If not, then maybe they’re not the great deal everyone thinks they are.

But then, I guess you have the assurance that you’ll never run out of headroom...

Regards,
Wayne

**Darren** · **08-15-06, 03:32 PM**

My Onkyo TX-DS777 provides ample signal. I can easily clip the BFD and the amp if I boost the LFE or subwoofer level. People have been using the Pro amps for years in their home theaters so it's just a matter of picking up The ART "CleanBox", line level shifter to boost the signal. They cost about $70 at pro-sound retailers.

Before purchasing anything try the following:
1. make sure your receiver has the LFE level set at 0
2. if you have the ability in your speaker level ajustment menu bump up your subwoofer there

**dalucifer** · **08-15-06, 04:26 PM**

I also, just picked up the behringer destroyer pro, that should help do the trick aswell

**Darren** · **08-15-06, 04:27 PM**

Quote:

dalucifer wrote:

I also, just picked up the behringer destroyer pro, that should help do the trick aswell

You'll easily be able to tell if your signal is strong enough with the BFD's signal indicator lights... just keep them all green, no yellow or red.

**Otto** · **08-15-06, 09:28 PM**

Quote:

Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:

A couple of things jump out at me.

As a pro audio amp, the EP2500 is designed for the higher input signals pro equipment use. So the problem you’re having is not enough level on the input signals. Also, keep in mind that the gain controls are attenuators, not a “volume control.” The former reduces input gain, the latter increases output gain.

Yeah, I was thinking about it and it might just be that I'm not getting enough output from the preamp. I'm using a BFD in line now, and the input levels are just barely lighting up. I haven't played enough with it just yet is the thing. I thought I had when I initially posted, but I guess I haven't. I know about gain vs. volume, but I was still tentative to open it all the way up. I have it set about 12 o'clock right now, and it's working. I just need to tweak it between movie and music levels.

Quote:

So, what you need to do is turn the gains all the way up, and then increase the pre-pro’s sub level as needed.

Sometimes it just seems like I don't have the time!!! And I feel like I'm waiting till winter to tweak, build and watch movies...

Quote:

Also, the manual notes that when in running bridged, the Channel 1 controls take precedent. The Channel 2 gain control should be turned completely off to prevent signal cancellation. If you had the #2 gain control up, that might account for both the low output and the signal hiss

Yeah, I caught that in the manual, and had gain 2 all the way down.

I no longer think it's DOA, but I'm not expert with it yet. I do think that the consumer vs. pro stuff has something to do with it...

Still working on it.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions everyone!

**Darren** · **08-16-06, 12:36 PM**

Ok, so what you need to do now is increase the speaker level adjustment for your subwoofer and make sure if you have a LFE control that it is set to 0.

**Otto** · **08-16-06, 04:52 PM**

Yeah, it's at 0 right now, and I've played with it going more positive. That certainly helps, but I want to keep some range in it -- so that I can bump it up if needed. I can go to +15 dB, so maybe I'll try around +10 dB to start.

I have a LFE trim for 2-channel listening, and that's set to 0.

Thanks!

**Darren** · **08-16-06, 06:05 PM**

Ok, no harm in boosting your subwoofer level to +10 if that is what it takes, you can always turn the amp down to adjust if needed.

**plincoln** · **08-17-06, 09:40 AM**

The interesting thing to note here, is that some of these pro amps actually require less input voltage than some of the better brands of consumer amps...so the question is..."what gives?"

These input sensitivity threads have gotten the better part of my curiosity, so I tracked down some voltages of other amps...not just pro amps and here they are:

Pro:
EP1500 - 1.15v
EP2500 - 1.23v
crown 402 - 1.015v

Consumer:
Adcom GFA 535/545/55 - 1.0v/1.3v/1.85v
Outlaw Audio 2200 - 1.7v

If we are talking HT, doesn't the calibration to 85db at reference take care of the gain settings? in my subwoofer chain, I have 3 places to adjust gain...the AVR, the PEQ, and the amp...in my case i set the AVR trim to 0, the eq to something nominal like 30 (this is an sms-1) and then adjust the amp accordingly with a SPL meter.

**Darren** · **08-17-06, 09:45 AM**

Quote:

we are talking HT, doesn't the calibration to 85db at reference take care of the gain settings? in my subwoofer chain, I have 3 places to adjust gain...the AVR, the PEQ, and the amp...in my case i set the AVR trim to 0, the eq to something nominal like 30 (this is an sms-1) and then adjust the amp accordingly with a SPL meter.

I agree, if you calibrate to 85db at reference then all should be good assuming you have ample headroom with the amp (shouldn't be a problem). Most HT setups should have a LFE adjustment which should be 0, a speaker level adjustment for the subwoofer level which should allow range well below and above 0 (I use this for the adjustment to get to 85db at reference, actually a few db higher is my preference), and the amplifier level control. If you have a bass management system like an ICBM you will have further LFE attenuation control. I also have that.

**plincoln** · **08-17-06, 09:51 AM**

exactly...so I am a bit confused as to all the problems with input voltages...even more so when you look at the required voltages of amps like adcom, carver, outlaw...all well above 1v for max power.

my EP gain control is at about 12 o'clock implying that I need more than 1.15v to bring it to full power...at -8 from reference on my AVR when viewing heavy bass scenes like Darla tapping or the sock explosion on monsters...the EP Clip indicators will blink...indicating that the EP is reaching full power and doesnt have much more to give...

At least that is what I think is happening...the Clip indicators are output clipping LEDs not input.

**plincoln** · **08-17-06, 09:53 AM**

I should mention that my EP is running in stereo...4ohms...Clip limiter is on, low cut filters are off.

**Darren** · **08-17-06, 09:56 AM**

The EP clip indicator doesn't mean it is giving full power, it means your signal is clipping... the signal is too strong generally when this happens. I don't run the clip limiters, try turning those off.

The amp is always giving full power to amplify the signal it is given, if you give it a weaker signal (less gain from the source) it will amplify that signal the same as it would amplify a stonger signal, the stronger signal could be so strong that the amp reaches it's limits which results in the clipping. So, if you are feeding the amp a fairly strong signal (higher gain from the source) it could indeed show the clip indicators which means you need to dial down the subwoofer level going to the amp. The amp doesn't have gain, just signal attenuation. It is perfectly logical that you could have the amp signal level at 12:00 and stress the amp if you are indeed feeding it a high gain LFE signal. I prefer to have the amp turned up a bit and dial back my subwoofer level from the source.

How many DB are you measuring at reference? Is the BFD hooked up yet? Are you staying within the green when the clip indicators are coming on for the EP?

**plincoln** · **08-17-06, 10:04 AM**

Quote:

Darren wrote:

The EP clip indicator doesn't mean it is giving full power, it means your signal is clipping...

the input signal?

Quote:

Darren wrote:

So, if you are feeding the amp a fairly strong signal (higher gain from the source) it could indeed show the clip indicators which means you need to dial down the subwoofer level going to the amp. The amp doesn't have gain, just signal attenuation.

But doesn't this go back to 85db calibration? How can I reduce the hot signal from the AVR without affecting the calibration of all the speaker levels?

As a test I tried running the AVR with -10, 0, and +10 LFE trims. I then adjusted the EP gain (attenutation as you said) accordingly to get to 85db.

I ran the same DVD scene all three times...the amp clip indicators would blink each time and SPL was about 110db (-8db from ref on the AVR).

So how are we to adjust these amps for max headroom then? turn the EP gains all the way clockwise and then adjust speaker trims on the AVR?

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