Outlaw 990, Bypass Mode Issue

[Bob_99]

Thanks, Otto. I'll look forward to Outlaw's solution.

Bob

[deromax]

Hello! Anyone got resolution of that issue?

[Bob_99]

While Outlaw is very good in many respects, fixing this problem does not appear to be high on their list. I have not heard anything and I wonder, given some of their special pricing of late, if they are going to be replacing the 990 with something different.

BTW, I have been monitoring their forum for any indication of a fix and haven't seen anything. I may post the question there and see if I can get an answer. For me it hasn't been high on my list but it would be nice to get it fixed.

Bob

[Otto]

Nope, it still continues on. I started a similar thread at the Outlaw Saloon, and there are still people waiting. I don't think there's been any comment from Outlaw on the issue recently. I think Outlaw may be busy trying to get a 990 successor out the door. In the end, I got tired of waiting and sold my 990.

[deromax]

Hello Bob! I'm on the Outlaw Hideout forum and was actually steered here from there. Similar discussions are happening there, for about the same time, since last april. I just took delivery of my 990 a week ago and issues are starting to emerge as I play with it...

I experience various bass management issue and the graphs that were plotted and posted here nicely expose what I'm hearing, namely a dip of mid-bass around 60-100 Hz and a gross over emphasis below 45 Hz. This is hapening in Dolby Pro-logic from stereo digital sources too. It's like a low shelf EQ was applied instead of the requiered crossover!

I opened a support ticket with Outlaw for another matter, that may indeed be related and I will open a new ticket for this new problem I just discovered.

It's probably only a few users with full range L/R mains that are experiencing this issue. I would advice everyone to open support tickets about this whole bass management debacle. Maybe if enough people are vocal about this Outlaw will react.

I still have 25 days trial period left. I'm affraid I may have to return the thing...

[Bob_99]

and the graphs that were plotted and posted here nicely expose

Can you indicate where you posted the graphs?

Thanks.

Bob

[Otto]

Hey Bob,

I think he's talking about the ones that you posted up above (in this thread), or perhaps the ones that I did here.

[deromax]

I didn't post any graph myself, I'm talking about those posted in message #12 in this very thread. The first graph, black curve. I didn't measure my 990 but I could have sworn the curve looked like it does just by listening.

Now I'd like to know if the 990 have similar issues while used with the "small" L/R setting and using the 990 sub output. I may reset the configuration of my whole system to use the 990 sub/main crosssover instead of my external, third party crossover.

[Otto]

Hi deromax,

Yes, I believe the whole problem is when the mains are set to "small" and you're using analog "bypass" mode. If not using "bypass," I think it's OK.

There is also another problem about the LFE channel getting filtered, but I don't recall the details; there's definitely a thread at the Outlaw Saloon.

[Bob_99]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I assume that since you just received your unit, that they implemented the latest firmware (3.11 I believe). Have you checked just for curiousity? I know it solved some of the problems that I had as mentioned earlier in this thread.

Thanks Otto for the clarification of my error. I hope you're still enjoying your new unit. I continue to hear good things about that model.

Bob

[deromax]

What I'm trying to achieve is using the 990 with the "full range L/R" and "No sub" settings, since my actively tri-amplified mains L/R are more than capable to deliver the bass needed without a dedicated AV sub. Here is a copy of a post I just sent to the Outlaw support site :

--

I made the following test. The 990 is set to "No sub" and "full range L/R". I play a regular audio CD. I connect the analog out from the CD player to an 990 input and the digital optical out to another 990 input, then compare the two.

Analog IN, Bypass mode = tonally balanced and full range sound
Digital IN, Bypass mode = same
Analog IN, Dolby Pro-Logic II = correctly decoded sound from all speaker but bass is weak and dull.
Digital IN, Dolby Pro-Logic II = Stronger overall sound level, loss of response at arround 80 Hz but grossly exagerated response below 45 Hz.

-- end quote

How in the world the same audio content may sound so different being transfered by analog or digital with Pro-logic decoding applied? One is weaker, the other is way louder than plain stereo, which is just bizzare!

Now, looking at the graphs posted at message #12, it is clear that the only setting that is causing weird frequency response anomalies is the one I want to use! However, I may be able to derive a workaround since the remaining of my audio system is so versatile...

What I will try is using the SUB out on the 990 to feed the low-end of my mains L/R. Doing so I will lose the stereo subs, not that it is overly usefull in the first place... With "Main L/R" set to small, crossed over at 120 Hz, which is the nearest to what I'm using currently. I may even route the SUB signal to my current Main L/R digital speaker management unit third input, for further processing.

Judging by the graphs posted at message #12, this may indeed work OK.

But I won't let Outlaw get by with this anyway!

[deromax]

I have yet to check the firmware version. I did not want to lose the settings I have so far, but I'm affraid it will be requiered! However, according to the description of the last firmware update, it may not correct the issu.

[deromax]

I've verify for two days that 3.11.04 is installed and hopefully it's permanent.

After running all the measurements again, I lost that strange dip and the noise. The bottom line is that I can confirm that my unit is behaving exactly the same as yours and my graphs are identical to yours.

Hi Bob! I'm re-reading this whole thread so I can fully understand it!

Are you saying that upgrading the firmware to the latest version corrected the strange frequency anomaly seen in your first graph, in Stereo mode, Large L/R and No sub? I notice that the Otto graph don't have the anomally.

What kind of input signal were you both using (Bob and Otto), analog or digital?

Thanks!

[Bob_99]

Yes, my problems were solved by updating the firmware. Apparently the first time I did the update it did not get saved. The second time was the one that worked. While it did solve my problems, it did not solve the one that Otto and others are trying to get resolved. If that is important to you, then you may want to reconsider your choice of preamp/processor for the reasons mention in my (and Otto's) post that they may be working on a replacement for the 990.

Bob

[deromax]

The first problem, the strange frequency response in LARGE/NO SUB mode, is the worst issue imho because it also affect the Dolby decoding.

I probably can live with my low-frequency section fed off the 990 SUB output (SMALL L/R) instead of my current crossover.

I probably can live without having the Bypass mode available, even for analog sources.

All I want is the sub receiving all the <120 Hz information, at all time, in all modes (except bypass) and the mains L/R receiving the >120 Hz all the time, in all modes (except bypass), without weird frequency response anomallies and with a reliable crossover.

Is this possible?

I borrowed a PC laptop and will install the latest firmware upgrade this week-end and try the new configuration for my system.

Thanks!

[Bob_99]

deromax,

I'm sorry if I confused you but I think that you have the latest firmware (3.11.04). I had an earlier version when I upgraded to resolve the problems that you see in those graphs. I see no reason why setting the speakers to small and crossover at 120Hz will not give you what you want.

Bob

[Otto]

Hi deromax & Bob,

I can say that my primary complaints were all to do with using an analog signal in "bypass" mode. I wanted to be able to output a full-range signal to my mains when using bypass mode, regardless of small/large settings. Instead, if speakers are set to small, the 990 still applies some type of high-pass filtering to the mains (but not the crossover frequency and slope as one would expect). This is wrong, since their bass management matrix (for analog signals in bypass mode) indicates that it should be a full-range signal.

Reading here and at the Outlaw Saloon, it sounds like your problem is with DPL processing. I never measured response with DPL; I was checking stereo modes for the most part. Of course, I don't doubt that there could be an issue there. I discovered and documented the one described above, and I was surprised that no one else had found it before me, but it does seem to be the case. I think you may have found another one. Do you have any experience with REW? That's what Bob and I were using to measure frequency response of the 990. If you have REW working, it's not too hard to do... Let me know if you're interested, and I can probably help you get going if you haven't before. Initially, Outlaw didn't believe me about the analog bypass issue. I really had to document it, and then they said "OK, we'll have a look at it."

What they will do first is tell you to reinstall the firmware. That's OK, but I don't think it's going to solve your problems. It will just lead you to re-enter all your settings. I like to use a digital camera on a tripod and just take pictures of the screen so I know all my settings without having to write them down.

Think that's it for now.

[deromax]

Well, a lot of things happened lately!

First I took delivery of my new XLR cables, so the Main L/R are now connected in balanced mode to my external active crossover. The additionnal 6 dB of volume I gained by using balanced interconnects will come in handy because I was lacking gain on certain low level source (some satellite channels, the turntable, etc). I used to play CDs with the volume at +6, now it's OK at 0.

Second, I checked the FIrmware version. I have 3.11 04, so no update required.

Next, I reconfigured my system. I'm now feeding the sub amp by the 990's SUB out. I set the Main L/R to Small and the SUB setting automatically became YES. I set a 120Hz crossover, which is almost what I used before.

After an extensive reset of my external active crossover, I played some 2 channels music from a CD. From analog and from digital. It sounded great in both case, just like it did before, in all 2 channels modes.

I then poped the Avia test DVD and proceeded to calibrate the levels. Uppon playing a few sweep test tones, I confirmed that the 990's bass management was working as it should.

I played a Dolby Digital movie I'm familiar with the sound (Spiderman) and HURRAY! Everything sounds as it should!

I then played a Dolby Surround movie. As a french speaker, I often have to suffer Dolby Surround 2.0 soundtracks. About half of the DVD release have only 2.0 as the french dubbed soundtrack. The sound was correct and sounded like I'm used to. It was my first exposure to the II version of Pro Logic and I liked it!

As for Outlaw support, they re-stated that they are working on a fix and remarked I was still within my 30 days try period and I could have a return number no problem

In conclusion, the sound is tonally balanced for all sources in all modes. I'm way happier than 2 days ago and I will keep the 990! But I still considere it "defective" and I think the published specs and features are missleading if not outright false advertising. I do hope Outlaw post an update. What is good to be able to upgrade a device in the field if no updates is actually put out! My GPS is updated like twice a year!

So thanks all for the help and comments. Cheer!

[Otto]

Good news, deromax. Enjoy the 990, it's a nice product!