Cary Audio Design Cinema 11 - New Preamp

[Otto]

Hi there,

I bought a new preamp recently, the Cary Cinema 11. It's really quite a piece of simplicity and sound quality.


The Cinema 11 is not exactly an A/V pre/pro. It's more of an "A" pre/pro. There is no video switching at all, and no output for an on-screen-display. There is no HDMI input either. Cary's solution for HDMI 1.3 and video processing is an upcoming separate video processor that will work with in conjunction with the Cinema 11. There is a proprietary input to the Cinema 11 that will handle the audio processing for HDMI-based signals, as fed from this other device. As I understand it right now, they are going to call them the Cinema A11 and the Cinema V11 (mine is then considered the "A11"). The combo would then be called, appropriately, the AV11, as it would handle both the audio and video parts. The downside is cost, of course, as I think the V11 is going to cost about $3k. On the other hand, if you only want the A11, you don't have to pony up the full cost of an A/V processor that includes all the video features that you would never use.

Currently, only having the A11 part works fine for me. I only have two DVI/HDMI video source, so I just bought the Monoprice HDMI switch. The change I was really looking for was in sound quality. I believe that if my system sounds good for music, then the sound for movies will follow.

Feature-wise, the Cinema 11 (C11) is simple but intelligent. All set up is done through its front panel display. At first, I thought I would miss an OSD, but I found that I don't. It's also nice to be able to make changes to the preamp settings without either turning the TV on or changing from what being viewed.

The C11 has balanced inputs and outputs. Aside from my Sirius receiver, all inputs to the C11 are digital. My PC and Dish 622 DVR both employ a Toslink connection, while my Denon DV-1910 uses a coaxial connection. I'm currently using the single-ended outputs to my amplifier, as it's easier to bi-amp my main speakers that way. My amplifier has two sets of RCAs for each amplifier input. One of these sets can be used to daisy chain to another input for quick and easy bi-amping. If I wanted to bi-amp using balanced cables, I would have to make a splitter, and I have not yet done that. I might suggest to Cary to add an ability to assign the SBL/SBR balanced outputs to be the same as the L/R outputs, such that anyone with a 5.1 system could bi-amp with the two otherwise unused balanced outputs.

Initially, I wanted to simply swap this unit out for my previous preamp, the Outlaw 990. I did that, but I found quirk in the C11 that didn't allow me to fully compare the devices, at least from a "bass" point of view. In the past, I'd allowed my Vandersteen 3A Signature main speakers to run full range. I then integrate my IB sub using either the built-in bass management low-pass filter, or the Behringer BFD to create my own LPF. When using the C11, if the mains are set to "FULL" (full range, no high-pass filter), then the sub is automatically disabled. The C11 offers independent crossover points for all speakers, including the sub. That means that if I set the mains crossover point to 40 Hz and the sub's crossover point to 80 Hz, bass will redirect from the mains to the sub from 40 Hz. Additionally, since the sub is set to 80 Hz, it will also "grab" bass up to 80 Hz as well. There is then an "overlap" of bass from 40 to 80 Hz. Cary calls this "Enhanced Bass," and it's up to the user to determine if it's desirable or not. In my application, I just wanted to run full range on the mains, and apply a 40 Hz LPF to the sub. Since when setting mains to "FULL," I lost the sub, I wasn't able to do that. I think this is a problem in their firmware, as I believe that the overlapping "Enhanced Bass" should be applied whether or not the mains are "FULL" or crossed over at some other frequency. I've stated such at AVS, where the Cary rep has had some presence in the past, so we'll see if anything becomes of it.

Continuing on the bass theme, in full analog "bypass" mode there is no subwoofer output at all. Of course, this seems somewhat logical, as the analog input is only a two channel signal (unless you use the 7.1 input, which I did not). However, I did get accustomed to one nice feature of the Outlaw: when in analog bypass mode, an exact copy of the input signal is available at the subwoofer output as well (a full-range signal, no digitizing or filtering applied). Although it's then incumbent on the user to apply an LPF to that sub signal (easy to do with the BFD), at least it's there so that the user doesn't have to do any cable switching to get the L/R signal at the sub output. In the end, it's OK for me, for now...

Since I'm not terribly interested in crossing over my mains for two-channel listening, I was somewhat forced to use "FULL" mode for music listening, thereby forgoing the sub altogether. What I discovered was a pleasant surprise! Bass in full-range mode on my mains had increased and improved. All of a sudden, the Vandersteens sounded much more like what I remembered in the showroom: full and deep. Of course, they're "only" rated to 30 Hz, so there's some lack on organ music and such, but I found things greatly improved, and I was very happy to listen to music in this new, subless fashion.

To be continued...

(comments welcome in the mean time)

[Bob_99]

Initially, I wanted to simply swap this unit out for my previous preamp, the Outlaw 990.

Otto,

Are you giving up on Outlaw?

Bob

[Otto]

Bob_99 wrote:

Are you giving up on Outlaw?

Hey Bob,

In a word, yes. The 990 is a good product, but I was bothered by some of it processing quirks. You know the issues I've brought up, and Outlaw has been working on them. I guess I just got tired of waiting for a firmware change, and then C11 came up on AudiogoN, and my wife said "OK" and that was pretty much it. I know not a lot of people use the Zone 2 feature of their preamps, but my wife thinks it's worth the upgrade just because the Cary will let you control Zone 2 and then immediately control Zone 1 again. The Outlaw has a five or eight second delay while it gets out of Zone 2 "mode" before you can control Zone 1 again. It was very vexing to both of us, and Outlaw told me it was "as designed." Maybe, but that's not a good design IMO (as a firmware engineer).

I'm not trying to bad mouth Outlaw at all, and like I pointed out, I think the Cary also has some quirks -- if only preamp manufacturers would make things exactly the way I want!!! Dang it!

I'd also put the 990 head-to-head, DAC-wise, with the Benchmark DAC-1. I really heard an improvement during two-channel listening, especially in bass and soundstaging. Since then, I'd kept it in the back of my mind that I could do better for a DAC. I returned the Benchmark to its owner, so I haven't put it against the Cary, but I think they will be very similar, as I've heard the same improvement in using the Cary (in general -- bass and soundstaging).

Anyway, I've really enjoyed the Outlaw in the year and a half that I've had it. It got me in to separates. For the most part, it's got a good sound, and a good feature set. Also, its flexibility in set up is better than many more expensive preamps that I've researched. It's also an excellent deal at Outlaw's new $999 price, and they can regularly be had on AudiogoN for about $800. It's just a game, this whole audio thing... While I like the Cary now, I can't promise that I'll keep it for two years; my wife tells me that she can't keep track of what's coming and going, buying, trading and selling for all this audio stuff, so that's just the way it goes.

[Otto]

Here are a couple pics of it in my system:

100_3148.JPG

100_3153.JPG

[Bob_99]

Otto,

Very nice system. You seem to be where I want to be. Thanks for the information regarding the 990. I always enjoy getting another perspective to broaden my horizons. I'm getting to the stage where I'm looking for a little better for speakers and electronics but I'm trying to control the urge to go too far because it's just too easy to drop a bundle for some of this stuff.

Anyhoo, thanks again for the info and the pictures. Good listening with the Cinema 11.

Bob

[Otto]

Bob_99 wrote:

Otto,

Very nice system. You seem to be where I want to be.

Thanks, man. It seems to be a never ending search, but I think I'm happy for now. I wonder how long this system will stay in place before I need an upgrade? I'd like it to just stay still for a while, but it always seems like there's something else out there for me. Actually, I think I should focus on room treatments before buying any more electronics or speakers (well, I do need to swap out my surrounds when I get the chance)...

Actually, I just went back through the photo section, and see you have a lot of room treatments. Nice!

Thanks for the information regarding the 990. I always enjoy getting another perspective to broaden my horizons. I'm getting to the stage where I'm looking for a little better for speakers and electronics but I'm trying to control the urge to go too far because it's just too easy to drop a bundle for some of this stuff.
Bob

Speakers are my favorite. I don't know why, but I just like them. I think they make the biggest impact in the system, and you will get the most "change" out of them when replacing something else. Although I can't tell what speakers you have from the pictures, the rest of your systems looks very nice, but I know how it feels to want to upgrade even though you're at that point.

And, yes, it's way too easy to spend a bundle on all this stuff!

[Otto]

Continuing my discussion of the Cary Cinema 11...

When I first received my C11, there were a couple noticable problems. First, and this is well discussed at "another forum," there is sometimes an audible noise while switching sources. This is mostly an annoyance, but might cause damage at extremely high volumes. Second, and more disconcerting for me, is a problem in which the C11 will not turn on after being shut. Neither Zone 1 nor Zone 2 will operate, even though the blue "standby" LED shuts off and one can hear a relay click inside; there is also no indication of anything on the front panel.

Fortunately, both these problems were resolved by the latest firmware, version 1.1.8. Actually, the turn on problem may have been resolved in firmware version 1.1.7, but I jumped from a version with a December 2006 date (although I thought it was marked 1.1.7 as well...) directly to 1.1.8, and both problems were resolved for me at the same time. Well, I might have heard the noise thing once, but I'm not really sure of it. Either way, I'm mostly happy with the current firmware.

One thing that I do think is a bug is the "Enhanced Bass" not sending a signal to the sub when mains are set to "FULL." I think this should be fixed in a future release.

I've read that the 12V triggers are assignable to Zone 1 being on and/or Zone 2 being on. Although I use Zone 2 frequently, I don't think that many people do, so their limited triggering assignability may be lost on most users. I think that they should change trigger assignability to operate by processing mode (e.g., trigger to turn on my "rear channels" amp when processing a multi-channel signal). There might also be some use in activating a 12V trigger based on the input(s) being used (e.g., when using "input 2," send a trigger to turn on a phono preamp). There are three 12V trigger outs, and while I've never used any of them on this pre/pro or any previous processors, I'd like to have the flexibility for future expansion.

In the time I've had the C11 (just over a week now), I haven't really put it through its paces for movie processing. I've watched a few movies casually, and the sound has been excellent. I'm usually more critical for music listening, so if that's good, then movie processing usually falls in line.

I did not spend a lot of time measuring my sub, as I've kept the same crossover points and nothing has moved location in the room. Bass sounds good through the sub, and bass sounds great coming through the mains on music.

You may have read the Stereophile review in which Kal Rubinson had some troubles with the automatic setup. Cary has stated clearly and repeatedly that the auto setup is really only intended for the user that doesn't want or doesn't know how to do a proper calibration of levels and such. With that in mind, I didn't even bother doing the auto setup; I simply used my Galaxy CM-140 SPL meter and the C11's internally generated noise to set levels. I intend to go back and recheck with the AVIA disc, as I've read that one can get different results between the internal noises and calibration discs.

I didn't touch the "room EQ" either. This is basically a graphic EQ with seven bands per channel (centered at 80, 250, 800, 2500, 8000, 12500 and 16000 Hz). Center frequency and bandwidth are not adjustable, so it's not terribly flexible in my opinion. There is no instruction or feature as to how one might measure and set these levels. I believe that the auto setup can do it for you, and I could measure and set it up myself, but I will probably never use it for the main, center or surround speakers. However, the sub's EQ, with center frequencies at 25, 40, 50, 63, 80, 100 and 120 Hz might be useful for gross sub equalization. I certainly don't anticipate removing the Behringer BFD from my system, though, so most sub EQ processing will very likely remain there.

So, all in all, I really like the Cary Cinema 11. It's everything I need -- a high-quality, audiophile-grade DAC, preamp and surround sound processor -- without any of the extra bells and whistles that I just won't ever use. Yeah, I'll have to do something external for HD-DVD/BluRay audio processing, but that's OK. At a retail price of $3K, it's not cheap; still, I believe it's a good value when compared to its competition, especially for sound quality and simplicity. And, like anything else, the Cinema 11 can be found used for significantly less than retail if you choose to go that route.

I'm happy to have this piece in my system and I think it's going to stay for a while. Like I wrote above -- it's just what I needed -- and to improve beyond this point, I would have to invest more money for a very incremental improvement. Check it out if you're looking for high-end audio with an attached surround processor!

Questions and comments welcome!

[Bob_99]

Otto,

How's the Cinema 11 working out for you? Any more thoughts that you would like to share?

Thanks.

Bob

[Otto]

Hi Bob,

Well, the Cary's been beautiful; I really like its simplicity and sound quality. I still find that bass is better defined, just tighter, but perhaps that's just me wanting to hear that -- I've never done any A/B back and forth comparisons, so it's hard to know.

I'm continuing to work around the no-bass-if-your-mains-are-set-to-FULL problem that I asserted above, as well as the no-sub-output-in-bypass-mode problem. Fortunately, they are very similar, and will be solved by the same approach: using a mixer to sum the unused balanced outputs, and then sending that mono signal to the unused channel of my BFD. There's more discussion here, I'm pretty sure it's going to work well; in the end I'll be able to select a BFD program for music and one for movies, all via remote control. Thanks for making me come up with a better solution, Cary!

Although it sits in a drawer due to my use of a Harmony 890 "universal" remote, I do feel that a nicer, more substantial remote control would be more appropriate for the Cinema 11. I've seen some nice remotes from Mark Levinson and Sunfire, among others, and I think the Cary deserves the same. Another minor issue, and one that doesn't relate to function, but if I were using that remote every day, I would be a little bummed.

I continue to be impressed with the Cary's sound quality. I was able to sit down and listen to some music last night, and everything was right there. Without having the sub engaged, I was again impressed with bass tightness and dynamics. Beyond that, mids and highs are very smooth as well, and gave give my speakers a mellow workout with some well-recorded and somewhat-natural tunes from Steely Dan's Everything Must Go.

Unfortunately, I haven't really put it through its paces on movies yet. We watched Syriana the other night, and dialog sounded good, as well as dynamics. I haven't put any time into doing proper bass EQ as I'm waiting for my 2-channel bass solution to solidify. Bass EQ remains where it was when using a 40 Hz crossover on mains for the Outlaw. There was some sibilance on dialog from the center channel, but I think it's the speaker itself, or the recording; I'm currently on the lookout for a Vandersteen VCC-5 center -- if you see one lying around, let me know.

This also gives me an opportunity to offer some praise to the Outlaw 990. Their current price of $999 for the 990 is an exceptional value. They really are pretty much there with sound quality, reliability and features. There were several processors I considered before before buying the Cinema 11. Although most of them were more expensive than the 990 (or at least more expensive when comparing list prices), I think most of them would have been a lateral move, rather than an upgrade. Good job by Outlaw for offering such a value!

That's it for now.

[conchyjoe7]

Otto:
I can only imagine how happy you must be with the sound of your Cary. A good friend of mine has the Cinema 5 and it sounds great. Regarding your thoughts on running your sub(s) along with your fronts running full range. I tried that with my system and my Aerials go very low, but I have to say that in surround modes it sounds a lot better using my mains cut off at 60hz. Now, in stereo (my preferred music listening), the Aerials full range without the subs sound fantastic, but I do enjoy the subs and full range together better in 2 channel.
Regards,
Konky.

[Otto]

Thanks Konky, and sorry for the slow response.

I've continued to work on my sub situation. I was able to use a couple more devices to get the sub running like I think it should. First, I use two different EQ settings -- one for movies and one for music. I use the sub out for movies, and I bought a little Peavey mixer that I use to mix L+R for music listening. There's also a BFD and a Chase Technologies RLC-1 in the mix that allow me to use either channel of the BFD (one for movies, one for music) as well as tweak volume levels, all remotely.

I've spent a lot of time getting that going, but, interestingly, it's not really tweaked at all. I don't think I've done a single room measurement since I've had the Cary. Why? I'm waiting for their version 1.2 firmware, which will offer user settings for different modes -- I'll be able to run music full range on the mains, but crossover as needed for movies. Once that's installed, I'll tweak it all up and it should sound pretty sweet! Been waiting a while for that firmware, and I believe Cary has released some beta stuff, but there's still been no official release.

[Otto]

As noted above, the Cary Cinema 11 doesn't do any video processing, and has no means to handle True-HD or DTS-HD audio signals. The Cary Cinema 11v will work in conjunction with the 11a for a complete A/V solution.

I'm not in the market for it yet, but it looks great on paper (or "screen," as the case may be). Here's a link to a quick blurb and photo.

[Funkmonkey]

Hey Otto,

just came across your thread about the Cary Cinema 11 while Googling for more info about it. Seems like you've had it for quite a while. Care to comment on how it's holding up long term? I am very interested in this piece because i really do not care about any video scaling, and just want the audio performance.

Also It looked like I saw a Sunfire amp in your stack, that is another piece I am looking into... Any comments about it? I had a Carver CD player about fifteen years ago and loved it until it started having problems, went to get it repaired but found out they were no longer making parts and that "Carver" had gone under. Now that Bob's work is back on my radar I am curious as to your thoughts...

Thanks,
Greg

[Otto]

Hey Greg,

Well, I really love the Cinema 11 for its simplicity and its sound quality. It's a beautiful piece that works great. I understand that they are working on a firmware upgrade, and I've been anxious to have that for a while -- it's been months and still nothing. I believe it's because they are still working on the Cinema 11a, which is generally the same as the 11, but which includes two HDMI inputs for audio processing only. I think the 11a is really the thing I'd like to have so that I could take advantage of HDMI audio formats on BluRay. The 11a has been delayed due to chip issues in the Cirrus Logic ASIC, so they haven't released the new firmware.

When I first heard of the 11a, I was rather agitated with Cary, as I think that a non-video processing pre/pro with HDMI for audio is a very desirable thing for many people. I was disappointed that they announced it a year or so after the 11 hit the streets. I considered selling my 11 for the Integra DTC-9.8 (essentially to get HDMI audio processing), but after reading the manual, and reading the 9.8 threads around the various a/v websites, I honestly feel that the headaches induced by the technical shortcomings are not worth it. I've also had tons of trouble getting HDMI out of my PC and into my TV, and to throw something else in the mix? No thanks!

So, although I'd like to have the 11a, I think I'll stick with the 11. I believe the 11a will have an MSRP of $3,000, and it'll likely remain high, at least during its first year or so while it's a hot item and there are none on the used market. If you don't care that much about HDMI audio processing, then have a look on AudiogoN as people unload their Cinema 11s in hope and pursuit of the 11a. I bought my 11 used, and I'm in no mood right now to dump a bunch of money into a new processor for which I don't even have an appropriate source (i.e., I don't have BluRay, HD-DVD or anything else that will offer audio via an HDMI connection).

I've had the 11 well over a year now, and have never had a problem with it. It operates flawlessly every time, and it's easy to use.

The Sunfire amp was also purchased used, and I sent it to Sunfire for an overhaul. There were some weird capicitor type noises, and the light was out, and I just wanted them to check it out. I think it was $350 or something like that. For the flat fee, they will fix whatever's wrong with it. It's a great 5-channel amp that never seems to run out of gas at any volume when driving my Vandersteen 3A Signatures (not a terribly difficult load, but not a light load, either). I find it difficult to compare one amp to another when considering sound quality -- even if/when there are differences between amps, I believe they're really subtle unless you get into tubes. So, I'd say it has a clean and solid sound.

I have no regrets in either of these pieces, and I'm honestly happy with my system right now. I've had little trouble with used equipment, and these two are probably pretty easy to find on AudiogoN. If you find an especially good deal on a Sunfire amp (e.g., perhaps it's got some problems, so it's really cheap), send it in to Sunfire and they'll clean it all up for you.

Good luck!

[Funkmonkey]

Thanks Otto, I appreciate the quick response.
Cheers

[Eric Carroll]

Otto wrote:

I understand that they are working on a firmware upgrade, and I've been anxious to have that for a while -- it's been months and still nothing.

Just FYI...

Jason Barbour of Cary Audio stated on another board "As far as new software for the older Cinema 11, I have to be honest and say that it is unlikely that we will continue to develop any new software for the older unit." This was in response to a question about the issues with the 2.0 beta release.

I also definitely recall reading a posting possibly from someone else at Cary that the 2.0 release likely would not be fully released, but I cannot find that reference right now.

[Otto]

Yeah, I saw that "over there." This whole debacle with Cary, the Cinema 11 the 11a and their non-existent firmware support is just helping me to be "happy with what I have." All in all, the Cinema 11 is a very nice piece, without a doubt one of the finest that I've owned.

In the end, though, I would be hard pressed to buy another Cary item, given the lack of support, Mr. Barbour's essential stonewalling of customer requests and their general dumping of the Cinema 11.