Can Someone Please Finally Tell Me What Is Going On Here?

[ShnuggMac]

I apologize in advance if this is not the correct area to post this query; I considered putting it under "Newbie" but was not sure if that was ideal either, so if this is not the suitable area for the questions (moderators) or another member please feel free to move it or point me in the right direction to where it would be more appropriate....

Let me explain the situation from scratch, first, because I had some of these issues addressed in here some time ago but the "conditions" and symptoms were never really resolved. Being a long-time home theater enthusiast and becoming completely and utterly comfortable with the workings of the standard definition DVD soundtracks and connections and such (coaxial/optical connections, Dolby Digital/DTS audio), I was excited to take the next evolutionary jump into high definition and hear these new "high resolution surround codecs" which were supposed to provide audio leaps and bounds beyond what compressed Dolby and DTS tracks could offer; not to mention the gorgeous 1080p video resolution which was supposed to look so real, rich and popping that it would be almost as if the actors were in our laps....so catalogs like "Crutchfield" would have us believe....

At any rate, eager to buy into this confusing and misleading world of HDMI cables and alphanumeric references to codecs and resolutions, me and my better half purchased an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver, which does all the next-generation formats, and a Panasonic Blu-ray player (the second-generation model, with the "A" at the end of the model code). We also purchased a Sony SXRD rear projection 50" screen to watch it all on. Working with an installer who was recommended to us in this area, he and I hooked everything up and I have been living with this system for a good month or so now, yet I have many questions and concerns about the way this system is behaving...

First of all, let me explain how the system is all set up so someone could confirm for me that everything is connected right. We have the Blu ray player's HDMI OUT (connected with a Monster HDMI cable speed rated to pass the latest uncompressed audio and high def video if I am not mistaken; this was a $100 cable) running right to the Onkyo's HDMI IN 1....from there, we have another HDMI cable (purchased by me from the installer who claimed this was a great, shielded, high performance cable; it cost me 70 bucks but this thing is black and THICK) running from the Onkyo's HDMI OUT terminal to my Sony TV's HDMI IN. In the receiver, everything seems to be set right -- the HDMI MONITOR is ON to pass the video, etc; this Sony display can accept and display 1080p images, and the Panasonic Blu ray player can play 1080p images, so I am assuming 1080p, when set that way in the player, is passing RIGHT THROUGH the receiver with no degredation of the signal....yet, discs dont look all that great. Ill get to that in a minute.

Now, I SPECIFICALLY and ONLY bought this receiver because it could decode the next generation surround formats -- I was coming off of an older Onkyo TX-SR600 which worked just fine and would have continued to be the centerpiece of my system if not for the fact that I wanted to hear these next generation codecs...alas, I was misled by salesmen in my area and other media hype that these second generation Blu ray players could pass these new formats via bitstream to the new receivers like my Onkyo, which I found out they cannot. That was after I spent 600 bucks on the player. So now let me get into the specifics of the problems I am having with the gear.

It all seems to be coming from settings in the Panasonic player's menu...perhaps I simply do not have something set right, or it may be plain old fashioned high expectations for this technology, but something is getting me utterly confused. First of all, in the player's SETUP menu, there are selections under the AUDIO menu for "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" -- which the MANUAL says are for adjusting audio coming from the player's COAX or OPTICAL outputs -- nothing about HDMI. The only connection I have made is with HDMI from this unit; under this menu are selections for EVERY codec available with this machine: Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS and DTS HD -- Master Audio is not supported. Now, I had originally set, along with my installer, all of these to BITSTREAM, but later changed the settings of the high resolution codecs to PCM when I found out the player couldn't pass the bitstream signals to my receiver. So, when playing standard definition DVDs, the audio tracks pass just fine -- I select Dolby Digital or DTS from the disc menu and my receiver lights up "DOLBY D" or "DTS" on the front display, as always...so no problems there. The issues have been coming in with the Blu ray discs and their soundtracks.

On many Blu ray titles, as everyone knows, there are these "Uncompressed PCM" soundtracks to choose from; I was told and informed that these were excellent to listen to in comparison to other lossy legacy codecs. However, when watching titles like Spider Man 3 or Pirates of the Caribbenan, choosing the Uncompressed 5.1 option makes my receiver read "MULTICH" on the display and illuminates the small "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" logos above it, making we wonder if the system is operating correctly....am I hearing the uncompressed audio if the receiver is displaying this information? And that leads to another issue. Why don't these uncompressed tracks sound that great to me? I seem to lose LFE level when playing these tracks (I have actually heard that using the multichannel mode of these receivers drops bass by 10dB or so...is this true?) and there seems to be a loss of directionality; like the audio is coming through in surround, yes, with directional information in the surrounds when they're supposed to be...but the overall impact doesnt feel like regular Dolby/DTS surround....like something is missing....is this normal?

Now, here is the next issue: when playing tracks that need to be "downmixed," I dont really understand what is going on or what the best way to play them would be....let me explain. This Panasonic deck does not support "DTS Master Audio," and according to the manual, standard DTS will be used as an alternative here....so, with the few Fox titles I have on Blu ray, like "Live Free or Die Hard" and the "Fantastic 4" discs, the Master Audio tracks seem to behave weird in my system....if I keep the "DTS-HD" audio setting in the player on BITSTREAM when playing these tracks, the receiver and player do the HDMI handshake and then the receiver reads "DTS" on the display while the audio display on the Blu ray player's onscreen information grid reads "DTS HD MULTI"....this suggests to me that the player is extracting the "core" DTS mix from the Master Audio track and sending that to the receiver....if I leave the "DTS-HD" setting in the player on PCM and then play these Master Audio tracks, then the receiver displays the exact same thing it does when playing the Uncompressed PCM tracks -- it reads "MULTICH" in the middle of the display and then "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" in small logos above it....what is going on here? The manual suggests that by keeping PCM set for these high resolution audio codecs, the machine is decoding the soundtrack and sending a 2-channel signal to the receiver -- but is that what is really happening? What am I hearing when sending these "Master Audio" tracks from the discs in PCM form as opposed to BITSTREAM? Which is the "better" way to listen to them? To be honest, leaving the setting on BITSTREAM and watching "Live Free or Die Hard" last night, the "Master Audio" track sounded punchier, heavier and better with this "extracted core DTS" mix, or whatever was going on, than by running the mix with the PCM setting from the player and letting the receiver see a "Multichannel" signal....something just seemed to be missing doing it that way....but what the heck is actually going on here? There was DEFINITELY much more bass and punch by leaving the player on BITSTREAM in the "DTS-HD" audio setting. But is this right?

And that leads to another serious question regarding the settings on this player...first of all, if the manual is claiming that this "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" menu, under SETUP, is for affecting changes to the coax and optical outs, then WHY are the high definition codecs, which cannot be passed this way and only through HDMI, available to be adjusted in this menu?? In other words, why are Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS HD available to be adjusted (PCM/BITSTREAM) in this "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" setup menu when these are only being affected by HDMI audio? There IS an HDMI menu in the SETUP menu, which offers selections of HDMI AUDIO ON or OFF and HDMI VIDEO ON or OFF, plus resolution selections up to 1080p (I keep this setting on AUTO, which chooses 1080p because of my TV it is connected to)....but the main audio choices are in that DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT menu which allows selections for BITSTREAM or PCM for ALL audio codecs supported by this machine....is this weird or am I just missing something? Should I keep the legacy codecs (Dolby Digital/DTS) on BITSTREAM, since these could be passed, and the new codecs on PCM? But then why did "Live Free or Die Hard" sound better when I switched the "DTS-HD" audio selection to BITSTREAM? And nothing needs to be switched or set for these "Uncompressed PCM" tracks, correct? These just get passed as is to the receiver -- no setting anywhere needs to be made for PCM/BITSTREAM, etc? I have heard conflicting opinions on the best way to listen to these tracks -- via the receiver's MULTICHANNEL mode, which mine defaults to when playing these tracks, or through the DIRECT mode, which I have been told actually eliminates the LFE channel and all bass management and such; what mode should be used here?

Now, what is going on with the "SPEAKER SETTINGS" menu under the SETUP MENU's CONNECTION tab? Here, you can set the player to "MULTI CHANNEL" or "2 CHANNEL"....the manual states that by setting the speakers to MULTI CHANNEL, this sends the signal to a receiver or processor that CANNOT do calibration levels, distances, etc (which of course my Onkyo, and almost all other ones do) so the PLAYER handles it internally....by setting the speakers to 2-CHANNEL, this sends the signals to a receiver that CAN decode formats, do levels, etc....but, when playing with these settings, something weird happens on my system. You would think, based on what the manual says, I should keep this setting on 2-CHANNEL because I AM connected to equipment that decode formats and such; but by keeping the player on 2-CHANNEL, this screws with multichannel PCM signals coming into the receiver, allowing me to use those weird DSP modes like "All Channel Stereo" and "Orchestra"....leaving the speaker setting on MULTICHANNEL locks the player into the MULTICHANNEL mode when playing PCM tracks; but this seems backwards compared to what the manual is saying....can someone clarify this for me? What the heck should this be set to.....and why?

Now, if the player is set to MULTI CHANNEL, is this somehow affecting bass management and time delays, etc. at my receiver when playing these high resolution audio codecs in PCM? It seems, as I said, I am losing LFE levels when playing these tracks in PCM and the receiver reads "MULTICH" on the display; is something being affected here, because when setting the player to Multi Channel for speaker output, there is a separate menu there for adjusting the speaker levels, sizes, distance delays, etc....but this was already done in my receiver -- but is anything being affected here when passing the PCM tracks of these sound mixes to the receiver via multichannel PCM with the player set to "MULTI CHANNEL"? I mean, are the sounds from the player's speaker setup (even though I have everything set to ZERO on these) affecting the audio with this setup? I want the receiver to handle all bass management and calibrations. Can someone lend some insight here?

I have a great deal more to discuss, but I'm off with the better half now do to some chores and such, so if someone could please take a moment to read this and assist with at least some of it I would greatly, greatly appreciate it and reply as soon as I get another chance. Thank you in advance!

[thewire]

You want to at the best of your abilities send digital from your player, process digital to the most accurate way appropriate for your amplifiers, then send a good signal to your speakers. It is true that formats other than DVD have a different effect on how your setup will use them based on there connection, source master mix and, the quality of the codec (assuming it was done correctly). You can listen to a HD version of a movie that you heard on DVD and hear the same problems with a master mix because it was not remastered for a better quality media. PCM is uncompressed audio but digital guarantees that it is coming from the original source unaltered. The receiver should be getting a digital signal to decode it for the amplifiers internally. If you have already matched components it is not as much of an issue. It is really your ears that will tell you what is right. It may require some occasional changes in settings depending on what content you are using and it is practice that you can find which ones work well together. If you the option to save different types of settings that suit your particular style of listening it makes things more simple. Doing some test that are A/B blind test to see which one sounds best to you works the best. If you you need to right down what settings are that is alright also.

Anyone more familiar with your gear may perhaps chime in and give some advise based on what they know about them or you may want to try looking at each component individually and see what others have said about them by doing a search.

[Magyar]

On many Blu ray titles, as everyone knows, there are these "Uncompressed PCM" soundtracks to choose from; I was told and informed that these were excellent to listen to in comparison to other lossy legacy codecs. However, when watching titles like Spider Man 3 or Pirates of the Caribbenan, choosing the Uncompressed 5.1 option makes my receiver read "MULTICH" on the display and illuminates the small "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" logos above it, making we wonder if the system is operating correctly....am I hearing the uncompressed audio if the receiver is displaying this information? And that leads to another issue. Why don't these uncompressed tracks sound that great to me? I seem to lose LFE level when playing these tracks (I have actually heard that using the multichannel mode of these receivers drops bass by 10dB or so...is this true?) and there seems to be a loss of directionality; like the audio is coming through in surround, yes, with directional information in the surrounds when they're supposed to be...but the overall impact doesnt feel like regular Dolby/DTS surround....like something is missing....is this normal?

"multichannel" is what you should see. It is not true that LFE drops by 10db on the Onkyos, however on higher and models there is a setting for it which should be set for "0 Db". Check that setting.

Now, here is the next issue: when playing tracks that need to be "downmixed," I dont really understand what is going on or what the best way to play them would be....let me explain. This Panasonic deck does not support "DTS Master Audio," and according to the manual, standard DTS will be used as an alternative here....so, with the few Fox titles I have on Blu ray, like "Live Free or Die Hard" and the "Fantastic 4" discs, the Master Audio tracks seem to behave weird in my system....if I keep the "DTS-HD" audio setting in the player on BITSTREAM when playing these tracks, the receiver and player do the HDMI handshake and then the receiver reads "DTS" on the display while the audio display on the Blu ray player's onscreen information grid reads "DTS HD MULTI"....this suggests to me that the player is extracting the "core" DTS mix from the Master Audio track and sending that to the receiver....if I leave the "DTS-HD" setting in the player on PCM and then play these Master Audio tracks, then the receiver displays the exact same thing it does when playing the Uncompressed PCM tracks -- it reads "MULTICH" in the middle of the display and then "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL" in small logos above it....what is going on here? The manual suggests that by keeping PCM set for these high resolution audio codecs, the machine is decoding the soundtrack and sending a 2-channel signal to the receiver -- but is that what is really happening? What am I hearing when sending these "Master Audio" tracks from the discs in PCM form as opposed to BITSTREAM? Which is the "better" way to listen to them? To be honest, leaving the setting on BITSTREAM and watching "Live Free or Die Hard" last night, the "Master Audio" track sounded punchier, heavier and better with this "extracted core DTS" mix, or whatever was going on, than by running the mix with the PCM setting from the player and letting the receiver see a "Multichannel" signal....something just seemed to be missing doing it that way....but what the heck is actually going on here? There was DEFINITELY much more bass and punch by leaving the player on BITSTREAM in the "DTS-HD" audio setting. But is this right?

Yes leave it in "bitsream mode" If you're leave it in PCM the player will downmix it to 2ch PCM and discard the LFE all together, hence why you loose bass. The receiver shows "Multichanel" because that was the "last valid" format used when it sense PCM signal, not because it receives an actual multi chanel signal. In the "listening mode" set up in the receiver you can set a default for any signal for any input. Once again check the manual for that.

Now, if the player is set to MULTI CHANNEL, is this somehow affecting bass management and time delays, etc. at my receiver when playing these high resolution audio codecs in PCM? It seems, as I said, I am losing LFE levels when playing these tracks in PCM and the receiver reads "MULTICH" on the display; is something being affected here, because when setting the player to Multi Channel for speaker output, there is a separate menu there for adjusting the speaker levels, sizes, distance delays, etc....but this was already done in my receiver -- but is anything being affected here when passing the PCM tracks of these sound mixes to the receiver via multichannel PCM with the player set to "MULTI CHANNEL"? I mean, are the sounds from the player's speaker setup (even though I have everything set to ZERO on these) affecting the audio with this setup? I want the receiver to handle all bass management and calibrations. Can someone lend some insight here?

Those setting only affecting the analog output as the manual states correctly. The HDMI output shouldn't be affected. However because of some content must be decoded by the player, it is more likely that audio travels through the player's DSP chip even when you use HDMI. So therefore I would set it to multichannel, and set levels and distance to " 0 " all speakers to large, and subwoofer to "on".

[ShnuggMac]

"multichannel" is what you should see. It is not true that LFE drops by 10db on the Onkyos, however on higher and models there is a setting for it which should be set for "0 Db". Check that setting.

Where should this "0dB" setting be on the receiver? I only have a calibration menu that pops up for setting the speakers and sub; my sub is set to "+6" on this menu, plus the LFE low pass rolloff is set to 100Hz....

So, when playing uncompressed tracks, "MULTICH" is correct on the display? Should I be using DIRECT mode here rather than MULTICHANNEL or not?

If the LFE is not dropping by 10dB, then why is there such a reduced impact of bass when playing these PCM tracks? I do not experience this with bitstreamed Dolby and DTS signals...

Yes leave it in "bitsream mode" If you're leave it in PCM the player will downmix it to 2ch PCM and discard the LFE all together, hence why you loose bass.

Okay, this has been confirmed for me on another site, that when playing these Master Audio tracks, I should keep DTS HD on BITSTREAM so the CORE DTS stream is sent bitstream to the receiver, which sounds much better -- either way, it was explained to me, the core DTS stream is either sent PCM or BITSTREAM, so if bitstream sounds good to me, I should leave it on that...

But the rest of your statement is confusing me....if I lose bass by keeping any setting on PCM, then perhaps this is WHY the uncompressed PCM tracks are losing bass as well? And right now, I have the Dolby TrueHD output set to PCM as well because the player cannot output it as BITSTREAM -- so the only choice I have is to send these tracks PCM to my receiver for now; were you aware that I have the Panasonic '10A player which DOES NOT HAVE HDMI 1.3 CAPABILITY and therefore DOES NOT SEND THE NEW SURROUND CODECS VIA BITSTREAM? So, the only way I can listen to a Dolby TrueHD track is to set it to PCM -- but, if doing this is creating a two channel downmix, which loses LFE, should I be doing this at all?

The receiver shows "Multichanel" because that was the "last valid" format used when it sense PCM signal, not because it receives an actual multi chanel signal.

No, but the "last valid" settings in my listening mode setup for default modes are not engaged for MULTI CHANNEL -- in other words, under "MULTICHANNEL PCM" for listening mode presets on the receiver's setup menu, I keep this on MULTICHANNEL all the time -- NOT Last Valid, so I am wondering WHY the receiver displays MULTI CHANNEL as the listening mode for uncompressed PCM tracks or PCM'ed Dolby TrueHD signals...follow?

In the "listening mode" set up in the receiver you can set a default for any signal for any input. Once again check the manual for that

Indeed....I have everything here set right, with 2.0 signals getting "PRO LOGIC II MOVIE" mode, DTS getting "DTS" mode, Dolby getting "DOLBY D" mode so on and so forth....everything is right here.

Those setting only affecting the analog output as the manual states correctly.

Okay, thanks for confirming this; however, the manual really does not state anywhere that the speaker settings here are affected only for analog output....in other words, because I am running only HDMI, these speaker settings should not affect any sound I am getting, right?

The HDMI output shouldn't be affected.

Okay -- didn't see this until after I typed my question...sorry...

However because of some content must be decoded by the player, it is more likely that audio travels through the player's DSP chip even when you use HDMI. So therefore I would set it to multichannel, and set levels and distance to " 0 " all speakers to large, and subwoofer to "on".

Okay. I'll double-check this, but this is where Panasonic got me really confused:

The manual says if you are connected to equipment that CAN decode formats, do calibration settings, etc., that the speaker settings at the player should be set to 2-CHANNEL here...if you are connected to equipment that CANNOT do level settings (which of course I am not), then select MULTI CHANNEL here....listening to this, you would think, because I AM connected to an Onkyo receiver doing the levels and distances and such, that I should leave the Panasonic setting on 2-CHANNEL....but this doesn't seem to process the audio tracks right with PCM...what is going on here?

Thanks for all your help.

[Magyar]

Where should this "0dB" setting be on the receiver? I only have a calibration menu that pops up for setting the speakers and sub; my sub is set to "+6" on this menu, plus the LFE low pass rolloff is set to 100Hz...

It's in the different menu. I have top of the line Integra, so yours maybe have different pages. It has nothing to do with the one you mentioned.

So, when playing uncompressed tracks, "MULTICH" is correct on the display? Should I be using DIRECT mode here rather than MULTICHANNEL or not?

Direct will disable bass management, so don't use it.
Multich is for PCM yes use that.

If the LFE is not dropping by 10dB, then why is there such a reduced impact of bass when playing these PCM tracks? I do not experience this with bitstreamed Dolby and DTS signals...

You have to look for that LFE setting I told you about, and make sure it is set for the highest setting which is 0db.

if I lose bass by keeping any setting on PCM, then perhaps this is WHY the uncompressed PCM tracks are losing bass as well?

Nope, the only reason you would have that problem if the player is downmixing those to 2 ch PCM, in that case you loose the entire LFE. With DTS HD MA the player very likely convert the core DTS to 2 ch PCM since it cannot decode hence recover the entire data stream. DTS HD MA is nothing more then a losslessly compressed PCM data, so when you unable to recover all that's needed, data will be lost, in this case entire channles, unless you transmit the lossy core in bitstream. get it?

Panasonic '10A player which DOES NOT HAVE HDMI 1.3 CAPABILITY and therefore DOES NOT SEND THE NEW SURROUND CODECS VIA BITSTREAM? So, the only way I can listen to a Dolby TrueHD track is to set it to PCM -- but, if doing this is creating a two channel downmix, which loses LFE, should I be doing this at all?

Yes I was aware, that is why there is a difference between the True HD decoding which the player can do, so no downmixing is invilved like for the DTS HD MA track.

No, but the "last valid" settings in my listening mode setup for default modes are not engaged for MULTI CHANNEL -- in other words, under "MULTICHANNEL PCM" for listening mode presets on the receiver's setup menu, I keep this on MULTICHANNEL all the time -- NOT Last Valid, so I am wondering WHY the receiver displays MULTI CHANNEL as the listening mode for uncompressed PCM tracks or PCM'ed Dolby TrueHD signals...follow?

Because you had selected it, as you just said it.

The manual says if you are connected to equipment that CAN decode formats, do calibration settings, etc., that the speaker settings at the player should be set to 2-CHANNEL here...if you are connected to equipment that CANNOT do level settings (which of course I am not), then select MULTI CHANNEL here....listening to this, you would think, because I AM connected to an Onkyo receiver doing the levels and distances and such, that I should leave the Panasonic setting on 2-CHANNEL....but this doesn't seem to process the audio tracks right with PCM...what is going on here?

Just ignore that, Use the multich setting.

[ShnuggMac]

It's in the different menu. I have top of the line Integra, so yours maybe have different pages. It has nothing to do with the one you mentioned.

I wish I knew where that setting was then...

Direct will disable bass management, so don't use it.
Multich is for PCM yes use that.

Okay -- THANK YOU for finally confirming this for me...the funny thing is, though, that by using MULTICHANNEL, I also get a massive LFE drop as compared to running bitstreamed Dolby and DTS tracks -- this is something I have been discussing for endless weeks now over on AVS Forums; people there claimed that some of these uncompressed PCM tracks have LFE signals in them, but recorded at a much lower level than we're used to, and our receivers or processors need to boost these signals -- I don't think my Onkyo is doing this with these uncompressed LPCM tracks; I get little to no bass on these tracks.

Now, let me explain a situation I had last night with an experiment I did: I took out Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (on Blu-ray, of course) and flipped back and forth, again, between the disc's DOLBY DIGITAL 5.1 and UNCOMPRESSED 5.1 tracks, also comparing the way the system behaved by changing the SPEAKER SETTINGS on the Blu-ray player between MULTI CHANNEL and 2 CHANNEL...weird things happened here, and I didn't understand why because I am running only HDMI connections through my system, and I thought these SPEAKER SETTINGS in the PLAYER were only for ANALOG OUT connections...first, if I kept the player's SPEAKER SETTINGS on MULTI CHANNEL, and then played the uncompressed PCM track, the receiver only let me choose between two listening modes for the track: DIRECT and MULTICHANNEL. When I switched the setting on the player to 2-CHANNEL output for SPEAKER SETTINGS and played the PCM track, the receiver suddenly let me use all the DSP modes available, such as All Channel Stereo, Mono Movie, Pro Logic II, etc...all of which sounded horrible on the uncompressed track. I don't understand what is going on here....if this SPEAKER SETTINGS menu is ONLY for analog output, then why is the audio being affected when I'm connected ONLY through HDMI and I play with these settings? And then the question becomes should I leave the SPEAKER SETTINGS on 2-CHANNEL or MULTI CHANNEL?

You have to look for that LFE setting I told you about, and make sure it is set for the highest setting which is 0db.

I have no idea where this is...

Nope, the only reason you would have that problem if the player is downmixing those to 2 ch PCM, in that case you loose the entire LFE. With DTS HD MA the player very likely convert the core DTS to 2 ch PCM since it cannot decode hence recover the entire data stream. DTS HD MA is nothing more then a losslessly compressed PCM data, so when you unable to recover all that's needed, data will be lost, in this case entire channles, unless you transmit the lossy core in bitstream. get it?

No, not really; I'm really confused at this point. Being that this deck DOES NOT bitstream the high resolution codecs, I have been keeping Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD on PCM so the decoded stream can be passed to my receiver as PCM (the player decodes the TrueHD and passes it...); but, with DTS MASTER AUDIO tracks, this has been the issue:

Since the player DOES NOT support Master Audio at all, what happens in my setup is this: I keep the "DTS HD" audio output on the player on BITSTREAM and play a Master Audio track, and my receiver displays the "DTS" logo, indicating to me that the receiver is being sent the raw bitstream signal of the CORE DTS mix extracted from the Master Audio stem...now, if I keep the DTS HD audio output of the player on PCM instead, the receiver sees that "MULTICH" display, indicating to me the core DTS mix is being decoded IN THE PLAYER instead, and then the receiver is getting the DECODED CORE DTS MIX from the player...EITHER WAY, as was explained to me on another site, I AM ONLY GETTING THE CORE DTS MIX EMBEDDED IN THE MASTER AUDIO MIX....so, BITSTREAM sounds better to me, so I keep the DTS HD setting on BITSTREAM in the player....follow and agree, or no?

Yes I was aware, that is why there is a difference between the True HD decoding which the player can do, so no downmixing is invilved like for the DTS HD MA track.

But I don't understand; I keep the TRUEHD audio output of the PLAYER on PCM -- is this correct? -- that way it can send the DECODED signal to my receiver as multichannel...this, again, causes a lack of bass, but that's something I can't do anything about.

So, are you telling me that the manual for this player is CORRECT -- that what it is actually doing is taking the audio codecs that are set for PCM output and DOWNMIXING THEM into a 2-CHANNEL SIGNAL to be sent to the receiver? Isn't this not right, though???

Because you had selected it, as you just said it.

Right, but see my reply above -- IF THE AUDIO OUTPUTS OF CERTAIN CODECS ARE SET TO PCM, AND THE PLAYER IS CONVERTING IT TO A TWO CHANNEL DOWNMIX AND SENDING IT TO THE RECEIVER, THEN WHY IS IT READ AS "MULTICHANNEL" AT THE RECEIVER???

Just ignore that, Use the multich setting.

But why did they print that there? What did they mean by "If you are connected to equipment that can decode, select 2 Channel here....if you are connected to equipment that cannot decode, select MULTI CHANNEL here..."?

And, better yet, WHY IS THIS SETTING MAKING AN AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE IF I AM ONLY CONNECTED VIA HMDI AND THESE SETTINGS ARE FOR ANALOG OUT ONLY?

[Magyar]

I am running only HDMI connections through my system, and I thought these SPEAKER SETTINGS in the PLAYER were only for ANALOG OUT connections...first, if I kept the player's SPEAKER SETTINGS on MULTI CHANNEL, and then played the uncompressed PCM track, the receiver only let me choose between two listening modes for the track: DIRECT and MULTICHANNEL. When I switched the setting on the player to 2-CHANNEL output for SPEAKER SETTINGS and played the PCM track, the receiver suddenly let me use all the DSP modes available, such as All Channel Stereo, Mono Movie, Pro Logic II, etc...all of which sounded horrible on the uncompressed track. I don't understand what is going on here....if this SPEAKER SETTINGS menu is ONLY for analog output, then why is the audio being affected when I'm connected ONLY through HDMI and I play with these settings? And then the question becomes should I leave the SPEAKER SETTINGS on 2-CHANNEL or MULTI CHANNEL?

That is how it should be. When you send discrete 5.1 channel PCM to the receiver, it simply cannot apply any of the DSP modes since they meant for 2 ch analog or PCM. So the receiver behaves as it should no mistery here. Use the multi channel mode!

You have to look for that LFE setting I told you about, and make sure it is set for the highest setting which is 0db.

I have no idea where this is...

Just checked the manual for the 605, it lacks the LFE pad that is available on higher end Onkyo models. Sorry.

if I keep the DTS HD audio output of the player on PCM instead, the receiver sees that "MULTICH" display, indicating to me the core DTS mix is being decoded IN THE PLAYER instead, and then the receiver is getting the DECODED CORE DTS MIX from the player...EITHER WAY, as was explained to me on another site, I AM ONLY GETTING THE CORE DTS MIX EMBEDDED IN THE MASTER AUDIO MIX....so, BITSTREAM sounds better to me, so I keep the DTS HD setting on BITSTREAM in the player....follow and agree, or no?

This player CANNOT decode this track period, it only extracts the core, which can be transmitted via HDMI or SPDIF[optical, coaxial] and it's bit rate is 1509kbps for 5.1 channels. It roughly equals to a CD which is about 1.5mbps at 44'khz sampling rate. For discrete multi channel PCM you would need 3x as much more data info. So when you have the "multich" appear on the Onk while you send DTS as PCM and see how many channel indicator is lit on the front panel which indicates how many channel the receiver gets.

But I don't understand; I keep the TRUEHD audio output of the PLAYER on PCM -- is this correct? -- that way it can send the DECODED signal to my receiver as multichannel...this, again, causes a lack of bass, but that's something I can't do anything about.

So, are you telling me that the manual for this player is CORRECT -- that what it is actually doing is taking the audio codecs that are set for PCM output and DOWNMIXING THEM into a 2-CHANNEL SIGNAL to be sent to the receiver? Isn't this not right, though???

BD players have secondary audio decoders built in,mandated by some of the interactive options like PIP commentaries and such, and that requires that the player mix all those togheter and then send it out as you choose them. Because of this and the fact that this player can't bitstream those HBR tracks [DTHD, DTS HD, etc] the DSP engine that responsible for tasks like bass management will be in the loop at all times, hence why bot the 2ch and MCH setting will affect the HDMI output.

[ShnuggMac]

That is how it should be. When you send discrete 5.1 channel PCM to the receiver, it simply cannot apply any of the DSP modes since they meant for 2 ch analog or PCM. So the receiver behaves as it should no mistery here. Use the multi channel mode!

Yes, I UNDERSTAND this, but what my issue is, is WHY does the manual say to select MULTI CHANNEL if you want the PLAYER to handle all speaker settings, etc. and use 2 CHANNEL if you're connected to a receiver which can do this? I AM CONNECTED TO A RECEIVER THAT CAN DO THIS, but I am also connected DIGITALLY via HDMI, so I don't get what's happening. If the MULTI CHANNEL settings on the PLAYER are FOR CONTROLLING ANALOG AUDIO OUTPUT ONLY, why does it affect what I have connected via HDMI???

So, I SHOULD NOT use the Pro Logic II, etc. modes for playing back the PCM tracks (of course, by leaving the player on "2-CHANNEL")? Why does the "MULTI CHANNEL" playback mode work better for these uncompressed, etc. tracks?

Just checked the manual for the 605, it lacks the LFE pad that is available on higher end Onkyo models. Sorry.

Okay, well in that case, I have an "LPF of LFE" selection under the SPEAKER CONFIGURATION menu, which asks you to set the subwoofer's low pass filter; the selections here are for 80Hz, 100Hz and 120Hz...I have it on 100 now, but my other speakers are all set to roll off at 80Hz because they're bookshelves and I would like the sub to handle the bass below this mark. What should the low pass filter be set on here? 80, 100 or 120Hz? I am running a 10" powered Polk sub.

This player CANNOT decode this track period, it only extracts the core, which can be transmitted via HDMI or SPDIF[optical, coaxial] and it's bit rate is 1509kbps for 5.1 channels. It roughly equals to a CD which is about 1.5mbps at 44'khz sampling rate. For discrete multi channel PCM you would need 3x as much more data info. So when you have the "multich" appear on the Onk while you send DTS as PCM and see how many channel indicator is lit on the front panel which indicates how many channel the receiver gets.

I lost you here....I KNOW the player cannot decode ANY MASTER AUDIO at all, yes, I know...so, when playing these tracks, I usually set the "DTS-HD" audio output of the player to BITSTREAM, so the CORE DTS mix is being passed to my receiver bitstream, where it displays "DTS" on the front panel....is this correct? EITHER WAY, am I getting JUST the CORE DTS mix if I bitstream or PCM it with Master Audio tracks?

I was informed recently on another site, which confused me beyond belief now, that by keeping the DTS HD audio output of the player set to PCM when playing Master Audio tracks, this is better because the actual HIGH DEFINITION portion of the MA stream is being sent (in other words, the player says "DTS HD MULTI" on its onscreen display when playing Master Audio tracks, perhaps suggesting that the "HD CORE" of the DTS mix is being sent INSTEAD of just the "REGULAR DTS CORE"....is this what is happening, or is the receiver seeing the core DTS mix either way, bitstream or PCM?)

BD players have secondary audio decoders built in,mandated by some of the interactive options like PIP commentaries and such, and that requires that the player mix all those togheter and then send it out as you choose them. Because of this and the fact that this player can't bitstream those HBR tracks [DTHD, DTS HD, etc] the DSP engine that responsible for tasks like bass management will be in the loop at all times, hence why bot the 2ch and MCH setting will affect the HDMI output.

THIS is something that probably should have been explained in the manual, for it states this NOWHERE. At any rate, you are saying that the 2-CHANNEL and MULTI CHANNEL speaker setting will not only affect ANALOG OUT, but also HDMI? Jesus...and this was after I was told and was convinced that these settings ONLY affect analog connections....

[Magyar]

So, I SHOULD NOT use the Pro Logic II, etc. modes for playing back the PCM tracks (of course, by leaving the player on "2-CHANNEL")? Why does the "MULTI CHANNEL" playback mode work better for these uncompressed, etc. tracks?

Multichannel has no processing to the already discrete 5.1 or 7.1 [if present] other then the bass management and time aligment.
DPLII is meant for 2ch sources, so naturally it can't be selected if there are more then 2 ch being present. If there is only 2ch comes in, yes I would use this over "stereo" for movie soundtracks for sure.

Okay, well in that case, I have an "LPF of LFE" selection under the SPEAKER CONFIGURATION menu, which asks you to set the subwoofer's low pass filter; the selections here are for 80Hz, 100Hz and 120Hz...I have it on 100 now, but my other speakers are all set to roll off at 80Hz because they're bookshelves and I would like the sub to handle the bass below this mark. What should the low pass filter be set on here? 80, 100 or 120Hz? I am running a 10" powered Polk sub.

I use the 100hz, it has nothing to do with what sub you're using or how the other filter for bass redirection is set. This is only affects the discrete LFE content, and only it's top end which is brickwalled at 120hz anyway.

I lost you here....I KNOW the player cannot decode ANY MASTER AUDIO at all, yes, I know...so, when playing these tracks, I usually set the "DTS-HD" audio output of the player to BITSTREAM, so the CORE DTS mix is being passed to my receiver bitstream, where it displays "DTS" on the front panel....is this correct? EITHER WAY, am I getting JUST the CORE DTS mix if I bitstream or PCM it with Master Audio tracks?

Use bitstream.

I was informed recently on another site, which confused me beyond belief now, that by keeping the DTS HD audio output of the player set to PCM when playing Master Audio tracks, this is better because the actual HIGH DEFINITION portion of the MA stream is being sent (in other words, the player says "DTS HD MULTI" on its onscreen display when playing Master Audio tracks, perhaps suggesting that the "HD CORE" of the DTS mix is being sent INSTEAD of just the "REGULAR DTS CORE"....is this what is happening, or is the receiver seeing the core DTS mix either way, bitstream or PCM?)

It's rubbish, don't buy it.

THIS is something that probably should have been explained in the manual, for it states this NOWHERE. At any rate, you are saying that the 2-CHANNEL and MULTI CHANNEL speaker setting will not only affect ANALOG OUT, but also HDMI? Jesus...and this was after I was told and was convinced that these settings ONLY affect analog connections....

In theory it shoudn't affect, and if you set everything neutral I.E.multichannel all speakers to "large", subwoofer to "yes" and all speaker trim levels and distance setting left at 0 it will have very little or no affect at all for the HDMI output as far as the how the soundtrack is presented.

I think I saw your thread over AVS. Blue Camry SE?

[ShnuggMac]

Multichannel has no processing to the already discrete 5.1 or 7.1 [if present] other then the bass management and time aligment.
DPLII is meant for 2ch sources, so naturally it can't be selected if there are more then 2 ch being present. If there is only 2ch comes in, yes I would use this over "stereo" for movie soundtracks for sure.

Oh, yes, I DEFINITELY use Pro Logic II MOVIE for two-channel Dolby Surround-encoded DVDs, of course; but what I am asking is, should the player be set to 2-CHANNEL output, that way I can use the Pro Logic II modes, or whatever, to play the PCM tracks, too? Or should MULTICHANNEL mode be it?

I use the 100hz, it has nothing to do with what sub you're using or how the other filter for bass redirection is set. This is only affects the discrete LFE content, and only it's top end which is brickwalled at 120hz anyway.

So, should I keep this at 100, also? Or what would you recommend?

Use bitstream.

It's rubbish, don't buy it.

Okay, so can you definitely confirm that there is no "DTS-HD" content coming off a Master Audio disc that is being sent when the player is set to PCM? EITHER WAY, my receiver is SEEING only the core DTS track, correct? So keeping it on BITSTREAM for playing back these Master Audio tracks is okay on my system -- I'm basically hearing the core DTS mix anyway?

In theory it shoudn't affect, and if you set everything neutral I.E.multichannel all speakers to "large", subwoofer to "yes" and all speaker trim levels and distance setting left at 0 it will have very little or no affect at all for the HDMI output as far as the how the soundtrack is presented.

The '10A's speaker setup for multi channel operation does not appear like that in a menu; it shows all the speakers in a graphic, and you can select their size by changing the graphic to a small or large speaker, and the calibration levels can only be trimmed by 0 to NEGATIVE REPRESENTATIONS -- there is no positive calibration values above ZERO on this menu; furthermore, there is no way to select subwoofer yes or no; I have done all these settings, however, in the receiver. I just hope these speaker settings, because I have selected MULTI CHANNEL based on your recommendations, are not affecting the HDMI output of the player...

[Magyar]

Oh, yes, I DEFINITELY use Pro Logic II MOVIE for two-channel Dolby Surround-encoded DVDs, of course; but what I am asking is, should the player be set to 2-CHANNEL output, that way I can use the Pro Logic II modes, or whatever, to play the PCM tracks, too? Or should MULTICHANNEL mode be it?

Definitely MCH. DPLII as good as it is can't rival with true discrete multichannel performance.

So, should I keep this at 100, also? Or what would you recommend?

anything above 80hz is fine.

Okay, so can you definitely confirm that there is no "DTS-HD" content coming off a Master Audio disc that is being sent when the player is set to PCM? EITHER WAY, my receiver is SEEING only the core DTS track, correct? So keeping it on BITSTREAM for playing back these Master Audio tracks is okay on my system -- I'm basically hearing the core DTS mix anyway?

Yes you only get the core no matter what, but keep it bitstream for sure.

The '10A's speaker setup for multi channel operation does not appear like that in a menu; it shows all the speakers in a graphic, and you can select their size by changing the graphic to a small or large speaker, and the calibration levels can only be trimmed by 0 to NEGATIVE REPRESENTATIONS -- there is no positive calibration values above ZERO on this menu; furthermore, there is no way to select subwoofer yes or no; I have done all these settings, however, in the receiver. I just hope these speaker settings, because I have selected MULTI CHANNEL based on your recommendations, are not affecting the HDMI output of the player..

It doesn't matter if it's icons or letters, they do represent size, keep it where the icon looks larger. Same goes for distance and level, it doesn't matter if it only goes one way. Zero is neuatral with zero processing. Follow these and you'll be fine.

[ShnuggMac]

Definitely MCH. DPLII as good as it is can't rival with true discrete multichannel performance.

So, keep the player's SPEAKER SETTINGS on MULTI CHANNEL, and when playing uncompressed or PCM tracks, use the player's MULTICHANNEL mode?

BUT.....Pro Logic II is okay for when Dolby Surround-encoded discs are played, yes?

anything above 80hz is fine.

So, 100 or 120 is okay on the low pass filter for LFE? Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't 80Hz be used?

Yes you only get the core no matter what, but keep it bitstream for sure.

Are you sure about this? I only ask because this is an ongoing, onraging debate over on another forum in which everyone is trying to get the answer to this DTS Master Audio issue on the Panasonic '10A Blu ray player...

Some are saying this player shipped with a factory update of some kind, after the manual was printed, which allowed the "DTS-HD" element of a Master Audio track to be extracted and sent via PCM to a receiver; some others are claiming, like you, that ONLY the core DTS track can be extracted from the Panny '10A and sent either bitstream or PCM to a receiver...

Yet, when playing a Master Audio track from a disc (again -- this unit cannot support Master Audio at all) and pressing the onscreen display button, the screen reads "DTS-HD MULTI" which has lead some to believe that indeed an imbedded DTS-HD element of some kind IS being extracted from the Master Audio stream, and the player IS IN FACT PASSING THAT, and this sounds better than the core DTS...

Can this be so? And then why does the manual claim "DTS Digital Surround will be used as an alternative for Master Audio..." and then under the section for setting up the DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT, it says, under "DTS-HD" setup, that if BITSTREAM is used, DTS surround is sent to a decoding device....and if PCM is used here, then the "DTS-HD signal is sent as a 2-channel downmix through PCM to a receiver......"? What do they mean here???

It doesn't matter if it's icons or letters, they do represent size, keep it where the icon looks larger. Same goes for distance and level, it doesn't matter if it only goes one way. Zero is neuatral with zero processing. Follow these and you'll be fine.

I'm still lost on the whole speaker settings thing because I don't understand WHY, if I am running only DIGITAL OUT from HDMI, these speaker settings are being affected in any which way....

Thanks for your continued help; I'm just trying to sort all this out....

[Magyar]

So, keep the player's SPEAKER SETTINGS on MULTI CHANNEL, and when playing uncompressed or PCM tracks, use the player's MULTICHANNEL mode?

BUT.....Pro Logic II is okay for when Dolby Surround-encoded discs are played, yes?

Yes for both.

Are you sure about this? I only ask because this is an ongoing, onraging debate over on another forum in which everyone is trying to get the answer to this DTS Master Audio issue on the Panasonic '10A Blu ray player...

Some are saying this player shipped with a factory update of some kind, after the manual was printed, which allowed the "DTS-HD" element of a Master Audio track to be extracted and sent via PCM to a receiver; some others are claiming, like you, that ONLY the core DTS track can be extracted from the Panny '10A and sent either bitstream or PCM to a receiver...

Yet, when playing a Master Audio track from a disc (again -- this unit cannot support Master Audio at all) and pressing the onscreen display button, the screen reads "DTS-HD MULTI" which has lead some to believe that indeed an imbedded DTS-HD element of some kind IS being extracted from the Master Audio stream, and the player IS IN FACT PASSING THAT, and this sounds better than the core DTS...

As it's been explained to you over at AVS you can only get DTS core from the DTS HD MA tracks. There are DTS HD HR tracks [not on the same disc or embeded intp MA] which are still lossy can be decoded by your player. Ther are only a handful of titles of movies that feature DTS HD HR option. Do search with AVS member "benes" to find his thread that lists those movies.With those limited titles you need to use the PCM option, since the player can't bitstream those.

So, 100 or 120 is okay on the low pass filter for LFE? Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't 80Hz be used?

I meant 80hz and above.

I'm still lost on the whole speaker settings thing because I don't understand WHY, if I am running only DIGITAL OUT from HDMI, these speaker settings are being affected in any which way....

Ask Panasonic............