Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

[Asahikasei]

People always assume that high end high priced audio will be superior in every aspect to your standard receiver, this can be true when dealing with analog 2CH setups but in home theater it is not. High end companies either do a direct rebadged and sell it for a huge profit or they design their own but as you will see there is nothing high end about it.

Lexicon MC-12.





Here we see the Digital I/O Board "top" and Analog I/O Board "bottom" obviously they are in no way superior to how a receiver is built/designed. Obviously there will be no sonic improvements using a DSP/DAC since the high end does not use anything special or better then what is used in today's receivers so the difference would be in the analog section of the product. As you can see there is nothing superior about the analog section of a very expensive Lexicon MC-12.

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexi...mr_images.html

Here is where I found the pictures.

Halcro SSP100/200.

The halcro uses the Vinci Labs Titan OEM SSP platform.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=973556

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....0&SQ=0&start=0

In these threads we found out that they do infact use the titan platform.





As you can see by the back layout the halcro "top" and parasound "bottom" have the same layout and most of it is exactly the same. The halcro also uses the following DSP/DAC, Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56367 Audio DAC: ASAHI KASEI AK4395 The HDMI also has an Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56371.

Mcintosh MX135/136.



The DSP system Mac uses.

http://www.mds.com/products/product.asp?prod=DAE%2D5



The analog section for one channel.



This shows the power supply section of the mac, the two things I did like about the make is the power section and the analog section when compaired to the lexicon.

[Sonnie]

Very interesting... I think I'm learning this the hard way.

So what would an MC-12 really be worth... in your or anyone else's estimation?

[Asahikasei]

So what would an MC-12 really be worth... in your or anyone else's estimation?

As far as audio performance it would not be worth more then a middle of the line denon receiver but since these units are not mass produced (I have not seen the lexicon factory) it would cost more based on worker fee's. I do not care if people buy high end equipment but do not say that is sounds superior especially when it comes to home theater.

[brent_s]

This looks like a good place to introduce this research article. I don't think high end A/V gear would be immune to the same power of suggestion.

This is what I think separates an SVS type company from so called "high end" brands. They're founded on engineering principles, which to me, include pricing that covers their costs (R&D, mfg, real estate, house keeping, etc) plus a modest profit margin. As the referenced research shows, a company can increase the perception of quality by simply charging more with no material/accounting basis for it.

Anybody remember the dust up when the original Outlaw 950 was identified as having no identifiable differences with Atlantic Technology and Sherbourn Lab's prepro? The latter two had MSRPs nearly double the Outlaw's price. Sherbourn did try to make a weak argument that their model used some unidentified higher quality parts above the standard platform developed by EastTech for the 3 companies to share.

Manufacturers have probably gotten more sophiscticated now, but once upon a time, some hid features in a product line by simply supplying the various price points with different remote controls. The lower priced unit, say a CD player, wouldn't have a random play feature that the brand's $100 more model did. One day some enterprising person pointed the upline model's remote at the lower priced unit and pressed Random...oops. If you've ever worked in manufacturing to price points, this is just a common sense approach. Do the R&D more or less once and then plug and play components (DAC, DSP chip, etc) and turn on/off features that are going to be in the firmware regardless to stratify a product line. If you think about it, it works for most any type of consumer product. What makes Diesel jeans worth more than Levis?

-Brent

[lcaillo]

I am not a proponent of high end products, but I do have a brain and there are often significant differences in amplifiers and processors. For instance, the design of a D/A converter can be significantly different in two circuits implementing the same chips and result in very different performance. To assume that just because a product is expensive it is overpriced, or that the parts don't make a difference. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Evaluate the performance, feature content, and usability, then discuss the value of a unit. Making assumptions can just as easily make you wrong as it can make you right.

[Asahikasei]

but the software written on them. And Lexicon has some really great room correction stuff. Sure, others have systems that do similar things, and some cost a whole lot less.

Yes but we are dealing with DD and DTS, they write the code. Don't start with logic7 because you can get that in a HK receiver.

For instance, the design of a D/A converter can be significantly different in two circuits implementing the same chips and result in very different performance.

But we obviously did not see that in the pictures.

http://www.lexicon.com/image_library/RV5_rear_lo.jpg

http://www.harmankardon.com/back.asp...me=AVR745B.jpg

As we can see in these pictures the lexicon receiver is a direct rebadge of the HK.

[Asahikasei]

http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=461&PN=2

This is from a lexicon forum.

Speculation from the previous RV-5 thread seems correct. The specs appear to match the H/K AVR-745.

http://www.lexicon.com/products/specs.asp?ID=26

http://www.harmankardon.com/specific...;20745&sType=C

That should fix it.

These are lexicon owners talking about how the RV-5 is a rebadge of a HK.

[conchyjoe7]

The Lexicon is a poor choice to compare as a "high end" product, as most everyone knows that in the case of Lexicon, the only thing high end is the price. I have never seen that MC12 reviewed by anyone with credibility that didn't rate it as merely average. However, I do believe (actually, I know because I can hear it) that there are differences in some equipment. John Curl for example designs amps and preamps (for Parasound mainly) that are as good as that equipment gets and while they are not cheap, they are a fraction of the price of the uber high end companies who shall remain nameless from me...and I have tried many many times to hear a difference...what little difference there is comes down to a matter of "voicing" IMHO. That said, and again speakers of superior quality must be used, but, I can definitely hear the difference between a mid fi AVR and a stout pre/pro with a couple of super beefy amps...and no, not merely in the volume either (I'm really not interested in the volume)!

I think we all know that Porsche, BMW, Audi, and some of the other high end cars are well worth the difference in price over their lower priced competitors (although admittedly not in all cases). I think we all also realise that rebadging is evident in many cases with autos. I for one took out an Infiniti G35 and a top of the line Nissan Altima. The price for the Altima was a fraction of the Infiniti, but for all intents and purposes IMHO they were except for minor cosmetic differences; essentially the same automobile. I find much the same between Honda and Acura, and Toyota and Lexus. Don't get me wrong, there are some "foo foo" differences I perceived, but not a lot, and certainly not enough to justify the price difference. We all however must remember that for a lot of people, the badge alone justifies the price to them in their mind, and so...who are we to say different...it's all in the perception (mostly).

Cheers,
Konky.

[Asahikasei]

I'm talking about room correction technology. Doesn't this Lexicon piece include their room calibration/correction software?

The MC-12 can have this option (for $3000).

I can definitely hear the difference between a mid fi AVR and a stout pre/pro with a couple of super beefy amps...and no, not merely in the volume either (I'm really not interested in the volume)!

Who said anything about amps? What processor would you say is one of the better to pick from?

[lcaillo]

Your sarcastic response does not enhance the discussion. Many people have very different levels of perception and value performance levels differently. Some people simply may not care about the differences between an Altima and a G35 and might never notice them while some people may not care about the difference between a cheap receiver or boom box with an IC for an output device an a more capable amplifier.

Lets stick to the topic and not get into criticism or sarcasm directed at individuals. If you want to point out a difference in the two models that he did not note, this is fine. It can be done in a manner that tells the facts but does not start a personal battle. We have seen this kind of thing go on in other forums and are not interested in it here. Stick to the facts and minimize the sarcasm directed at individuals.

[conchyjoe7]

DS21...Thankfully we absolutely do live in entirely different universes, and I'm at a loss for words to express how happy I am about that fact!

[Sonnie]

Okay guys... Leonard has already expressed that we don't need the sarcasm... as well as our rules prohibit the same. Let's stay on topic with the OP thread.

Thanks!