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Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

13K views 109 replies 11 participants last post by  Lumen 
#1 · (Edited)
Long story short... we are renovating the house to sell at some point in a year or two, and my wife has agreed to let me move the HT into a bigger room. Problem is, she's making decisions faster than the light from my plasma can reach my spinning head (so I have little time for research today).

I greatly appreciate any help you can offer here, or in pointing me to appropriate threads. TIA!!!

  1. I would like to improve acoustics beyond just bare walls and floor as much as possible. Would it make sense to construct a room-within-a-room for this scenario? What are the benefits?
  2. I plan on changing out my B&W's for the Revel Ultima Salons and a new Voice-2 center which will sit on a new stand under the wall-mounted TV. Should the centerline of the screen be at eye level?
  3. What are the pitfalls of buying used HT seating. I need only 2 or 3.
  4. More questions later, but I'd welcome any suggestions in advance!

EDIT: Just to try and collect my upgrade activities in one place, I've included links to some of my related threads:

My Butt is Sick and Tired
Where, Oh Where Does My New Center Go?
A Sound Renovation for the Green Room

And here's a teaser of things yet to come! (lifted from the REW Online Help Manual)
Text Line Plot Slope Pattern

Plot Line Diagram

Text Line Font Design Diagram
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Room within a room is really only for sound isolation. If you want to keep sound out or sound in that is the best option.
A compromise is needed for the centre channel. you ideally want it at the same height as the tweeters on your mains but that makes the screen to high in most cases.
 
#4 ·
Room within a room is really only for sound isolation. If you want to keep sound out or sound in that is the best option.
Thanks for your patience! I could have looked it up myself, but am in a hurry to shorten the learning curve.

A compromise is needed for the centre channel. you ideally want it at the same height as the tweeters on your mains but that makes the screen to high in most cases.
So is center-line tweeter alignment the reason for risers? Or are risers used as a space to create a bass trap?
 
#3 ·
Don't overlook Chane speakers. He has his pre-order special going on now for his latest iteration of the A5. And should come out with his much anticipated L7 with matching center by the end of the year. These are expected to be a very big step up. Just a thought. I do know that Sonnie just bought another pair of the A5's for his room.
 
#8 ·
Thanks, Tony! Two down and ??? many more to go. I guess a room-within-a-room would bust any ill-conceived budget I came up with. Worse yet, the bigger room would now become smaller. If we were staying there long-term, sound isolation would be higher on my list because the resonating walls definitely need reinforcement.


I obviously need to keep realistic expectations about the new room, especially since we could move shortly after it's finished. So aesthetics come in a distant second to functionality. I'm pretty sure that a good viewing experience is controlled by lighting and seating distance. Good sound is controlled by speaker positioning and acoustics - first position, then acoustic treatment, then signal processing from the likes of Audyssey, etc. I at least plan to distance seating far enough from back wall to properly locate surrounds.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is:
  1. If my wife wants to put up this paneling, is there something I can put behind it to help acoustics?
  2. What's involved in building a riser and is that something a novice could do?
 
#9 ·
That paneling wont absorb or let through any sound so putting anything behind it wont make much difference. As far as what to put in the walls Roxal safe n sound is my goto product.

Are we talking a speaker riser or a riser for seating? both are easy to build just use 2x6 boards for the frame and glue and screw 3/4" plywood to the top to keep vibration away.
 
#10 ·
Both, I think. If the seats are at floor level, then ears should be about level with the (horizontal) center channel IF it just sits on top shelf of wide rack. That would put the center of the screen a little above eye level. The mains tweeters would be a little above that. Vertical distance from center channel tweeter to mains tweeter would be a foot or two! So my setup will never be ideal. I think I know what you're saying, though. From what I can remember, Sonnie's CCC has a riser for both the center channel and the seats, which effectively puts the mains below sea level so-to-speak. But not sure if the same principles apply because his Martin Logans don't have a single tweeter. :R
 
#11 · (Edited)
Ive got my mains below the screen and that in turn raised my screen so the centre of the screen is definitely above the "ideal" height. But my tweeters are at just below ear height, I have them angled back slightly so everyone gets the right amount of highs. I just have my mains on some black square milk crates coverd in a black cloth LOL
 
#12 ·
I have been thinking about front of room traps for a while. Of course, your HT screen gets priority. In my room, I will move it up so that I have front room traps to above ear height. In your case, you might consider traps across the lower part of the front wall below the screen down to the floor.

Reason, absorption rather than reflection from the front wall illuminates reflections that cause Imaging to wonder with different notes and tones with some instruments. Also quickens the decay of nodes and low-mid frequency reflections, getting them to die down quickly. It will definitely improve the impression of fast bass and will improve Imaging and detail.

I am getting ready to build a set, will do a build thread, but my design prioritizes 2 channel sound while allowing for a good home theater set up also.
 
#15 ·
Kind of a random comment... but your chosen L/R speakers are about 4 1/2 feet tall. I'd be inclined to do everything I can to ditch the horizontal center channel and get third Ultima Salon in its place.

Just in my opinion, your Samsung PN60F8500 won't have viewing angle issues (if the TV position is slightly higher)... and the benefit of using an actual tower in place of a center channel will be pretty huge.
 
#17 ·
Eeek, again!! If only I had the funds at the moment to go projection. I'm limited to about $3k for everything. If I could find a buyer for the Salons and the B&W's, I'd try to get matched speakers for a 7.1 setup. Already have the electronics to drive them. I guess I should have let on a little earlier that the bigger room is only marginally so (13x11).

Sometimes the truth hurts, and you're right about the height. TheSalons weren't meant to be HT speakers. I just hate losing an arm and a leg on them. I also hate the act of selling - just no good at it.

So it seems as if this venture is done before it begins! Can you say "easily discouraged?" Methinks it best to save up for the goodies and just get some used seats for now, especially since we're in temporary quarters until we sell.

While I see-saw on the options, guess I'll start planning the speaker layout, as limited as that may be. Somehow I need to get those surrounds a little over ear height and behind the LP. I remember seeing a recommended angle and range, but don't have it handy at the moment. I do know where a sketch pad and pencil are!


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#20 ·
Perfect! Thanks for that my good friend Willis! I appreciate the help, though I should probably have looked it up myself. :sneeky:

So if it were your coin, would you:
(a) lean more toward getting the center channel for the uber performing Revels, or
(b) Trade the Revels and B&Ws in for a matched system, say Golden Ear Tritons or an amazingly high bang-for-the-buck Chane A2Rx system?​
 
#21 ·
Wayne wrote:

The traps are next.
I think Sonnie has a different plan Wayne. From the looks of it, the traps can wait!

Luman wrote:

if it were your coin
Since you are planning to move, I wouldn't spend any reckless money. I'd put it away & plan on investing in the next place. Just make sure it has a room that will accommodate a HT. My wife & I went through so many houses until we found one that would work...not just in the family room, but for a dedicated space as well. I was surprised at how many homes don't work at all. Open floor plans are everywhere!
 
#23 ·
Wayne wrote:
Since you are planning to move, I wouldn't spend any reckless money. I'd put it away & plan on investing in the next place.
I'd agree with this. Maybe if there's something you can add that will be easy to use in the next place, you can go ahead with it now, but I'd try to save that budget for when you're ready to go in the new house. It would be frustrating to get there and have more equipment you need to sell to switch out for something else better suited to the new layout.

Plan big for the next space! AT screen and 3 identical L/C/Rs!
 
#24 ·
Hey there Louie, I see you are in the midst of a conundrum. Having visited your home and senior living room as well as the equipment that's slated to be in their I have a rather slanted thought on how you should proceed in this matter. Last time we spoke it was clear that you do wish to quite possibly sell this house after fixing it up a bit and in that vein I would say spend your money on making the house salable first and use the equipment that you now have two make a modest home theater in your main room. While it is not huge it is definitely larger than one you had and I think could work much better frankly.

Building a room inside of a room or making all sorts of accoutrement to place it here and there will definitely detract from your reconditioning which may allow you to get into a better place. I agree that your mains are not necessarily meant for home theater but they would work pretty well and I would hate to see you rid yourself of those most excellent speakers that you may be able to use in your next home. There is a thing called buyers remorse coupled with the fact that buying another home may preclude you from replacing those fine speakers.
So what am I rambling on about? I think I would move everything into your living room set it up as best as possible by mixing and matching what you have and possibly getting a few additional absorption panels that would help you with any bounce if you do not have enough already. By using the salons for left and right duty and maybe putting a full-sized B&W between them, with all the processing you now possess you might be able to make this work. Further doing it this way would save you a ton of money that you could either put into fixing up what you are now trying to sell or putting in the bank and getting ready for your next abode.

By the way, I'm always here to help if you need someone to move stuff around with you.
 
#26 ·
...Last time we spoke it was clear that you do wish to quite possibly sell this house after fixing it up a bit and in that vein I would say spend your money on making the house salable first and use the equipment that you now have two make a modest home theater in your main room. While it is not huge it is definitely larger than one you had and I think could work much better frankly...

...I think I would move everything into your living room set it up as best as possible by mixing and matching what you have and possibly getting a few additional absorption panels that would help you with any bounce if you do not have enough already. By using the salons for left and right duty and maybe putting a full-sized B&W between them, with all the processing you now possess you might be able to make this work. Further doing it this way would save you a ton of money that you could either put into fixing up what you are now trying to sell or putting in the bank and getting ready for your next abode.
As you and others who care may have guessed, this project has fizzled. I'm only allowed the most basic of HT setups to keep the big/main room of the house uncluttered for showing. I'm leaning toward keeping the current room, saving boatloads of moving and setup time. Getting rid of the Salons is a lot more painful than dumping the B&W's when considering depreciation and performance. But one or the other sets must go due to space constraints. Do you feel sorry for me yet (lol)?
 
#30 ·
Hi guys, and thanks for the support! :neener:
Each of you has helped me advance along my HT learning at some point. Now the time has come to exercise some of that knowledge in pursuit of even better sound. Yes, I'm one of those pseudo HT nuts who places audio on a higher pedestal than video (at least until such time as I can afford for the latter's funds to surpass the former's). You will all laugh-out-loud very long and hard to find out that I am running my Salons mismatched to a B&W center channel in that tiny Green room of mine! The Salons are quite the behemoths in that cramped space, and wouldn't fare much better in the marginally larger "Eeek" room. But whether a product of my psychoacoustic imagination or my exceptionally well-honed, speaker setup skillset (hah-hah), the Salons convincingly disappear in outright audiophile fashion when reproducing up-to-snuff program material. So why oh why does dissatisfaction prevail? One Word. MMD! Mushy Movie Dialogue. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the source material, but I can't seem to understand dialogue as easily and recently as a few months ago.

Dirac Live calibrations don't drift the way a capacitors can, so I need to ask myself, "What's changed?" On the other hand, maybe I've slowly acclimated to the Salons! What was initially a dance over superior sound on 2ch music and multichannel concert videos, has become a convulsion over mostly incoherent murmuring. No blown tweets or mids. No changes in speaker position. My plan of attack is to first try a source with a known-good center signal. Then try a recalibration if that fails to turn up anything.

Those who don't know me may wish I'd just go back away rather than try to decipher my ramblings. BUT MY NAME IS LOU, AND i LOVE MY SELF!!
So I stay put. Hah! Or as the Knights Who Say "Nee" would say, I now say to you: "Nee!"

Winding down and back to the point...
My system needs more tweaking. This holiday weekend I plan to revamp the room and speaker setup. The room has become too dead as I've shoehorned in more and more bass traps. Time to back off on the wall panels as well. Then there's the speaker Combo Abomino - time to match the front set again, even if it means reverting back to the B&W's or shelling out some mean green for the Revel center. I've seen some used ones cross eBay recently for close to a song. Just couldn't pull the trigger so soon after Christmas and family Birthdays.


...while this is a rough draft of unfinished work, it's quittin' time on Friday afternoon and I need to head out the door.
 
#31 ·
My room is also on the verge of to dead... I would like to make some diffusion panels like GIK has for placing over my absorption panels. I wish they would offer kits of just the wood with the pattern cutout for DIYers too.
 
#33 ·
Lou. How your ramblings make me feel....there are others like me. First, I'm jealous of you for having the salons. Second, despite many complaints of movie dialogue intelligibility, I might be suspicious of the B&W in general. Blasphemy? Maybe but my jbl center never has me guessing, and I'm 14' away. I would definitely try to pick up the revel center. I'm a believer in timber matching and the haters might attack but I don't care. I'm pretty sure they're just cheap and lazy. Being matched probably won't become the be all end all for intelligibility in your room but having as seamless a front stage as you can, won't hurt. Try some familiar music in pro logic where the center is put to good use and see how that works. If the B&W is still not clear I might be assured it's the offender. If not, maybe it's the voices.....in my head.


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#34 ·
Hmm. Thought I strayed off-topic, so your kind words and suppressed laughter are appreciated! Conditions are poor from technical standpoints such as mismatched tweeter height, forced compromises in speaker positioning, etc., etc., etc. I remember now that I edited my house curve about the time MMD reared its ugly head. Sounded good at the time with a limited range of source - not demo - material because I try to tune my curve for average recordings. I think that shows "better" is sometimes just "different" and other times actually worse.

Maybe this discussion does belong in my Green Room thread, but any time taken away from home projects does inject a sense of haste into the room/system recalibration I plan for this weekend. So haste is on topic!

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#40 ·
While the others were thinking about timbre-matching (love you guys, yer the BEST!), target curve is where I ended up.

Bryan's phantom center suggestion is excellent. I run that way all the time and love it.

A target curve suggestion: Add a tiny bump, 0.5 dB to 1 dB, between 2 kHz and 3 kHz.

My target curve file includes
1000 hz, 0 db
2000, +1
3000, +1
5000, 0

A lot of speakers have a little "liveliness" lift in that region by design. If 1 dB sounds a little extreme, try 0.5 dB. Speech intelligibility will be greatly improved.
 
#35 ·
If you suspect the B&W center is the source of your dialogue troubles, run on into your processor and tell it you don't have a center channel. Then your Salons will phantom-image the stuff intended for the center channel. Take a listen to some of the material you've struggled with and see if things improve. This might be a way to narrow down where the problem really lies. It will only cost you half an hour of your time and would help prove or disprove the choice of center channel being the source of the trouble. Just a thought.

You might also want to use REW and measure your center channel response at your listening seat. Perhaps there's a huge floor or ceiling bounce suckout causing the problem. If that is the case, EQ wouldn't be able to completely take care of it, and neither would another speaker placed in the same location.

Edit: Just saw your new post above. Excessive output in the low frequencies can certainly mask the higher frequencies important for intelligibility. Do you have problems in quiet scenes with just dialogue, or mostly in louder, action-filled scenes?
 
#38 ·
If that's just a thought, I like the way you think! And I'd like to apologize for the lack of any hard science or links. many of you talented folk out there help others transform themselves into REW-literates. I would love a walk-through of some of its advanced (to me) features. For now though I may just need to massage my house curve.



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