Fisher Theater Rebuild

[thewire]

Bruce Fisher wrote:

I was thinking about my projector today and how to mount it. I know most people just use a simple mount - leaving the projector sitting upside down at the bottom of a pole. I am wondering about building a 2 sided box to hang from the ceiling to hide it a little (plus hide the anamorphic lens, etc)... leave the front and rear open for airflow.

I searched on the web and this is something like what I pictured...

any thoughts? Planning to use a BenQ W5000 - can it handle being mounted right side up near the ceiling? Looking at the manual, it doesn't appear to like it...

I have a Benq w5000. It can can be mounted near the ceiling but the vents on the sides will make it less than ideal for a box. There is no real good reason to use a box unless your intention is to hide it out of site or reduce noise but in some circumstances the Benq w5000 would be more quiet than your rooms ambient noise. I believe it somewhere near 25dB in whisper mode. The only time I hear it is with the high altitude mode on. In this case using the adjacent room (lobby) would work best but you will end up having to need a hole in the room which would not be good for acoustics as would placing a closet for the projector unless you put lots of effort and money into it. Because of the lens on the Benq it is best to use minimal lens shift but mounting closer to the ceiling can also improve the image depending on which screen you end up with. The higher gain screen you use and the closer it is mounted to the screen the longer you can have a brighter image and the lower the gain the higher you may need to run the projector and the less time you may get out of the lamp. There is also the sweet spot for which to to mount it. It depends on what your definition of a reference image is and what you consider image quality.

Also.... earlier I hope that it did not seem implied that I was suggesting you use the short distance in the room as length. I would only suggest that under "special circumstances".

[Bruce Fisher]

thanks for the info guys - that was my expectation. As is typical for this project, time to change my plans

My goal for the box was just to make it less visibly noticeable (projector plus anamorphic lens is not real attractrive). I think I'll just start out simple and see where it goes. thanks

[Bruce Fisher]

Been a little bit since I posted - time for a quick update

We have the carpet installed, walls painted (although we need to go in and finish the trim work), sconce lights installed (but I need to move 1... grrrrr).

I finally settled on my strategy. Acoustically Transparent screen (Seymour), 2.37 format, BenQ W5000, Aussiemorph lens. Emotiva speakers, processor (when released), amps. SVS subs (although now I may wait for Emotiva's new subs which are coming soon).

I purchased Emotiva speakers. I went for (3) 6.3s for LCR and (4) ERD1s for surround. I also purchased the XPA-5 for my main amp (5x200) and UPA-2 for side speakers (125x2) (not sure I'll keep the UPA-2, I may upgrade to the XPA-3 (3x200) so I have 200 per channel all the way around.

I set them up temporarily last night just to hear them - and they sound really good. I haven't fully tested them yet - I have some work to do yet before I'm totally ready.

I am currently finishing up all the wiring (speakers, sources, pj, etc). Once that's done, I will install a sound barrier on my drop ceiling. I bought it last week - my poor car... 660 lbs of material. Basically I was told to place pink insulation on the drop ceiling and then unroll this on top of it (don't want the barrier right on the ceiling). Going to be a pretty big (and heavy) job... plus I need to reinforce my drop ceiling (I was told I probably don't, but I'm nervous so it's worth an extra day of work to make sure my ceiling doesn't come crashing down on me!)

Attached are a few updated pictures I don't plan on keeping the folding table speaker shelf... just most convenient last night

[Prof.]

Looking good Bruce..

When those amps and subs are fired up..I would be making very sure that the ceiling is securely attached..

[Bruce Fisher]

Been busy working on the theater - time for a quick update!

Near completion of "phase 1"... the room itself. Carpet, extra layer of sheetrock with green glue, additional wall, heavy solid doors, finishing tiling the floor (entry/"bar" area). Still working on wiring and touching up paint.

I ran 3 combo wires (dual quad-shield RG6; dual Cat5e) (the heavy blue wires behind the equipment rack) from my automation closet to my theater closet. This gives me total flexibility. Using some of the coax as "long distance" (~70') RCA cables for my audio sources (right now only connected to my audio server). Cat5e is for automation status (power on, 12v triggers, etc), cat5e for IR, cat5e for networking (PS3, SageTV (distributes my HDTV throughout the house)).

I still need to run my 7 speaker wires and 3-4 potential subwoofer locations.

Then I can finish Phase 1... the ceiling. I have almost 700 pounds of Noise Barrier to install on top of my drop ceiling... for both my office and the theater. Both to keep noise out and keep it in (reduce transmission to other areas)

Phase 2 will be next... audio treatments (front wall behind the screen, reflection points) and prep for phase 3.

Then Phase 3 - the projector/screen.

While I'm working in the theater, I set up a temporary speaker setup. These Emotiva speakers are awesome... highly recommended! Combined with the amp - they just sound right - very clean and clear, dynamic... very happy with that purchase. I've tested them with lots of material... jazz, blues, rock - it sounds great with them all. I keep turning them up louder and louder while working and then stopping to listen to a song or two. They are that good... make me stop what I'm doing just to listen to a song. A few minutes ago - it was a live version of Stevie Ray Vaughn playing "Tin Pan Alley". And now it's Eric Clapton's "My Fathers Eyes". good stuff!

They won't stay on these stands (those are for speakers in my den - but this took higher priority! ) The speakers will be put on shelves on my wall behind the screen (when I get that far). The sub is just a cheap 10" Dayton sub I had in my office. Will be adding different subs when the theater is ready (hoping for Emotiva's new subs when they are ready)

One design change - I decided to add a black curtain in front of the screen. I will use it to mask the screen width (when switching from 2.35 to 16:9 for HDTV) and to cover the screen when not in use. Researching that now... if anyone knows of some good acoustically transparent black blackout cloth or automated curtains - let me know!

That's it for now

<edit: no, that's not me in the picture Thats the wife >

[rickp]

Looking very good!

[KASR]

Progression is looking simply awesome!!! I wish I had a basement to dedicate as a theater room! Very, VERY cool

[Bruce Fisher]

Getting ready to add noise improvements above the drop ceiling. Bought 12 rolls of Quiet Batt and about 700 pounds of noise barrier. But before I can start this, I need to finish up my wiring.

Below is my updated floor plan with what I'm guessing are locations for noise panels (blue rectangles with numbers next to them). In addition to the 6 spots, I'm wondering about 7 and 8 (below my side speakers). The speakers look right when I hold them up at about 6 feet. The panels I've been looking at (Gik) are 4' tall... and there should be room behind the couches to fit these panels.

<edit: there is room under the window to the left side of 3 in case I should put a Bass TriTrap there instead >

So my new Q's (I've exchanged several PMs with Bryan already, but this seems like a good spot for forum Q's):

1) I haven't done any testing but just looking to cover large spots of walls. I don't need to make final decisions now, but for starters is this appropriate?

2) thoughts about installing panels below side/rear speakers (mount speakers higher than the panel)? Spots 5 and 6 seem like great spots for panels. Assuming yes, any issues with mounting the rear speakers above the panels (ie 6' up)? (My rears/sides are Emotiva ERD1) I need to know this answer so I can wire those speakers ) Or would I use diffusors (such as Gik D1) instead?

3) What about areas 9 and 10 (above the two couches)? I could mount the panels on their side (so they are horizontal instead of vertical. Any benefit?

4) Bryan recommended I cover the front wall with absorption (since my front speakers will be mounted close to the wall (sealed speakers - Emotiva 6.3s)). Since my main speakers won't be more than 4' off the floor - do I just mount the panels horizontal on their side? Or is there something else I should use (such as acoustical foam products which I could cut to fit the shape I need)?

Just trying to prevent putting speakers in spots that I'll later regret... My current plan is to mount the side and rear speakers 6' off the floor... this gives me room below them and also looks good to the eye.

Thanks!

[Prof.]

[quote=Bruce Fisher;171570]

1) I haven't done any testing but just looking to cover large spots of walls. I don't need to make final decisions now, but for starters is this appropriate?

Bruce..I'm probably going to upset you now, but I have to say that it's not really appropriate...
You have a difficult room (acoustically speaking) to contend with and it does need some fairly radical treatments, if it's ever going to sound right..
The open lobby area is one of great concern...could be a bit of an echo chamber..

I realize that you might have some wife issues, when it comes to getting it set up right, but I can only say what I believe needs to done in that room..

I dare say Bryan has already pointed out problems to you, and it's up to you whether you do them or not..

2) thoughts about installing panels below side/rear speakers (mount speakers higher than the panel)? Spots 5 and 6 seem like great spots for panels. Assuming yes, any issues with mounting the rear speakers above the panels (ie 6' up)? (My rears/sides are Emotiva ERD1) I need to know this answer so I can wire those speakers ) Or would I use diffusors (such as Gik D1) instead?

Spots 5 & 6 for the rear surrounds are not going to be very effective..and I don't think acoustic panels are going to be much help back there..
They may help if you made them very large..floor to ceiling and the width of the wall each side of the door..but a hard floor is not going to help..
That area needs to be made dead as possible..

As far as the position for the rear speakers..I don't think they're going to be very effective back there and personally I would even bother including them..

3) What about areas 9 and 10 (above the two couches)? I could mount the panels on their side (so they are horizontal instead of vertical. Any benefit?

They make help to some degree in those positions, but it's the first and second reflection points that matter...and I think this is where you have a problem..
Your first reflection point on the left side will probably be on the glass Window..
That fixed glass panel really needs to be covered with an acoustic panel..
On the other side you have the door..and that's probably your reflection point, so that needs a panel..

The second reflection point on the right wall won't be a problem since you have solid wall there..but the left is a different matter..
I think the panel required will be part on the glass door and part by the seat..Not practical, so you might just have to have a panel right next to the door, above the seating..

4) Bryan recommended I cover the front wall with absorption (since my front speakers will be mounted close to the wall (sealed speakers - Emotiva 6.3s)).

Absolutely..

Since my main speakers won't be more than 4' off the floor - do I just mount the panels horizontal on their side? Or is there something else I should use (such as acoustical foam products which I could cut to fit the shape I need)?

As Bryan said..The whole wall behind the screen needs to be covered with acoustic insulation..not just panels..and if possible, put in some trapping in the right corner at least..

Just trying to prevent putting speakers in spots that I'll later regret... My current plan is to mount the side and rear speakers 6' off the floor... this gives me room below them and also looks good to the eye.

That distance off the floor for bi-pole/di-pole surrounds will be fine..

[Bruce Fisher]

Hehe - no, I'm not upset or offended... if I was worried about that, I surely wouldn't be posting here for everyone to see and criticize We knew this wasn't going to be the perfect installation - we have many issues to deal with. Our goal was always to get the best we could with the limitations we have.

I hadn't thought about the back area being an echo chamber... that's a very good point. A bit late now with the hard floor (We plan to have a throw rug there, but it's still a hard floor under it). My thought was it wouldn't be too big of a deal since it's just rear speakers - you don't need to pinpoint locate where they are - they are just for effect. Didn't think about it being echo'y back there though...

I will likely go ahead and still install the rear speakers back there (I already have them) but as noted, they may not be ideal. I'll have to think about other options before I get too far on that...

For the glass doors on the front left side of the room, we're putting back up some very heavy curtains (not currently there - we took them down while we are working). I figured this is about the best we can do for that location.

For the right side first reflection point, I'm fine with mounting a panel on the door. I was wondering about that being the first reflection... again - not much I can do about it so we'll minimize the impact best we can. I've been wondering if I should mount a panel on that side since the left won't have one (just the curtains). Will it cause the sound to be "asymmetric" causing it to sound worse than if I just didn't do anything there?

For the front wall - you mention covering it with acoustic insulation - do you have anything specific in mind? This is what I'm picturing... is this like what you mean? Maybe I should cover my echo chamber area with this stuff too

As always, thanks for the feedback and ideas!

[Prof.]

Bruce Fisher wrote:

For the glass doors on the front left side of the room, we're putting back up some very heavy curtains (not currently there - we took them down while we are working). I figured this is about the best we can do for that location.

Heavy curtains will help to some degree, but not as effective as an acoustic panel..

I used to have heavy curtains at the sides where first reflection occurs..and when I took them down and replaced them with panels, I noticed the difference immediately..

Could you not fit a panel behind the curtain?...or do you need daylight from that part of the glass area.?

For the right side first reflection point, I'm fine with mounting a panel on the door. I was wondering about that being the first reflection... again - not much I can do about it so we'll minimize the impact best we can. I've been wondering if I should mount a panel on that side since the left won't have one (just the curtains). Will it cause the sound to be "asymmetric" causing it to sound worse than if I just didn't do anything there?

I would still put one there..even if you don't have one on the other side..It will all help..
The only difference you might hear with just one, is that the clarity of projected sound and sound that passes from front to back..will have a smoother transition of sound on the right side..

For the front wall - you mention covering it with acoustic insulation - do you have anything specific in mind? This is what I'm picturing... is this like what you mean? Maybe I should cover my echo chamber area with this stuff too

That material would be ideal..but probably an expensive way of doing it..
Alternatively, you could just use some OC-705 and cover it with some black open weave cloth..and doing the walls in the lobby area would certainly help..

Oh..and also putting down a heavy rug on that floor is a must!

[Bruce Fisher]

Prof. wrote:

Could you not fit a panel behind the curtain?...or do you need daylight from that part of the glass area.?

I haven't used panels before - is it OK to just rest a panel against the glass? That way when we do open the curtains (when the theater is not being used), we can just move the panel? And when we watch a movie, just move the panel back in place?

[Prof.]

Bruce Fisher wrote:

I haven't used panels before - is it OK to just rest a panel against the glass? That way when we do open the curtains (when the theater is not being used), we can just move the panel? And when we watch a movie, just move the panel back in place?

That would be fine..
I would suggest that you make your panel 4' high and the width of the glass panel..but don't forget to check first, where exactly your first reflection point is..

[Bruce Fisher]

Haven't done much the last couple weeks... combination of work and vacation. Should be getting back to it this week

I am almost done insulating above the drop ceiling... QuietBatt and NoiseBarrier - awesome combination. Amazing how much better the room sounds with just this and the greenglue/2nd layer drywall.

Made some purchases - waiting for arrivals:
- Screen - Seymour AV's new fixed frame. 130" wide (will cover the wall from bathroom door to corner)

- Projector - BenQ W5000 (hehe - arrived while I was typing this post! Sweet!)

- Anamorphic Lens - HTB. This is a change... started getting nervous about the amount of money being spent and opted for a lower cost option. Their pre-sales support has been outstanding, and I can upgrade later if I feel I need to.

So I am currently trying to figure out what acoustic treatment to apply to the front wall... would like to install it prior to installing the screen (just to make it easier on me ) My thought is that since it's going to be mostly hidden by the screen - foam makes a lot of sense (cost/performance).

If I go foam - recommendations? This is what I'm leaning towards... 3" thick in charcoal.

I considered using sound panels but don't think they will work for me to completely cover the front wall. With the foam, I think I should be able to fit them in better and cut the foam as needed to ensure it covers the wall fully. Anybody work with foam to know if will allow me to do that? Not sure yet how it's applied to the wall either.

[Bruce Fisher]

Change in plans for the front wall... switching from foam to fiberglass. Planning to use 705 on the entire wall and cover it with black material.

[Prof.]

Should be very effective..

[Bruce Fisher]

This weekend's focus is the front wall. Need to mount the speakers, prepare for the (130"x55") Acoustically Transparent Screen (SeymourAV), and to cover it with noise absorbing material (ATS Rigid Fiberglass Board (equivalent of Owens 703)) and black microsuede fabric.

Attached is an image of my plans for the front wall (sorry, the picture was a big crooked when I took it).
- the two orange rectangles are the 16:9 and 2.35 image sizes
- eye/ear height when sitting is labeled
- black squares are where I have my speakers planned (they are symmetric with the screen, but the crooked image makes it look wrong)

My thoughts/questions/unsures...
- screen height. I found somewhere you want the eye height to be about 1/3 up from bottom of screen. Sound about right? That only leaves about 10" between top of screen and ceiling (and about 26" from bottom of screen to floor). As noticed, my ceiling is white (may change it later... can only do so much at once) so I figure I will have some reflected light. Should I lower the screen some?

- Speaker height. I have the speakers set about the same - ears are about 1/3 up from the bottom of the speakers. Should I lower them so they are centered with ear height?

- Speaker separation - currently about 94" between center of speakers. Seating distance will be about 180" away. I can seperate the speakers a little bit more - but can't quite get it the same as the distance to the seating. Should I move them as far out as I can?

[Prof.]

Bruce Fisher wrote:

My thoughts/questions/unsures...
- screen height. I found somewhere you want the eye height to be about 1/3 up from bottom of screen. Sound about right? That only leaves about 10" between top of screen and ceiling (and about 26" from bottom of screen to floor). As noticed, my ceiling is white (may change it later... can only do so much at once) so I figure I will have some reflected light. Should I lower the screen some?

My screen is also 26" up from the floor to the bottom of the image..and I find that height ideal..
With the screen only 10" down from the ceiling, you will get a lot of light reflection off the ceiling, but lowering it a few more inches isn't going to help any..

If you don't want to paint the whole ceiling a dark colour, then you could just have a black velvet covered panel fixed to the ceiling.. the width of the screen and extending about 3' out from the screen..
That would help considerably in reducing ceiling reflection..

- Speaker height. I have the speakers set about the same - ears are about 1/3 up from the bottom of the speakers. Should I lower them so they are centered with ear height?

With an AT screen , it's best to have the speakers centred within the height of the screen..

- Speaker separation - currently about 94" between center of speakers. Seating distance will be about 180" away. I can seperate the speakers a little bit more - but can't quite get it the same as the distance to the seating. Should I move them as far out as I can?

The current distance between the speakers is fine..
What you can do with that size screen..using anamorphic projection.. is to move your seating in as close as 135"..
Recommended viewing distance for Scope screens is 2.5 times the height of the screen..Some even sit closer!!.

[Bruce Fisher]

Prof. wrote:

If you don't want to paint the whole ceiling a dark colour, then you could just have a black velvet covered panel fixed to the ceiling.. the width of the screen and extending about 3' out from the screen..
That would help considerably in reducing ceiling reflection..

I was wondering about that! My wife and I were talking today about the options and that was one consideration... in fact I was thinking about actually doing that with sound panels so it would/might provide some sonic improvement as well!

[Prof.]

Yes..It's an ideal way of resolving both light and sound reflection at the same time..

[Bruce Fisher]

Didn't get as much done as I hoped this weekend... took more time than I expected.

I got the speaker platforms built and the screen brackets built - and both mounted. I still need to go back and touch up the screw heads so they don't reflect back through the screen.

The top screen brackets will hold the screen mounting "hangman" brackets (the screen slides into the hangman). I don't have the bottom supports installed yet - waiting for the screen to arrive (Thursday) just to be sure i get them at the right height.

In addition to this - I have finished painting all the border wood flat black. Next up is to install the border material all the way around the open areas, then mount the acoustic material, then fit the black material over it all, staple it in place to the border, and then put the top border on it to cover up all the staples. Makes me tired just thinking about it!

Screen arrives Thursday. I was hoping to be ready but I won't be. Hopefully this weekend I'll be ready for it...

(oh yeah, I did get the side and rear speakers installed and connected and tested. Some progress )

[Prof.]

Slowly but surely..

[jvcustom]

looks great! i love the wood pillars.

[Bruce Fisher]

Made some progress this weekend. Took me longer than expected but I don't want to rush and screw up now...

Spent a lot of time researching subwoofers. Ended up purchasing an Elemental Designs A5-350 subwoofer. Should be here tomorrow. Decided to start with 1 and add another if needed later.

Worked on insulating the front wall. Not done yet - but getting there. First image is of the insulation pre-covering. Second is after I covered it with acoustical microfiber suede in black. The picture doesn't look nearly as good as it does in person (can't see any of the wrinkles that show up in the picture). The black is real deep black - looks real nice! (I still need to put my finishing black strips around the border on that section)

Now I'm worried about my wood columns... hopefully they won't reflect through the screen. They look awesome in real-life but I won't be happy if they "bleed" through. If they do, I'll put the black fabric over them (at least where visible through the screen).

Two more areas on the front wall to insulate... then the fun starts - time to install the screen and PJ and calibrate! I'll start looking into REW once I get to that point.

[Prof.]

Bruce Fisher wrote:

Now I'm worried about my wood columns... hopefully they won't reflect through the screen. They look awesome in real-life but I won't be happy if they "bleed" through. If they do, I'll put the black fabric over them (at least where visible through the screen).

You might see them a bit with the normal room lighting, and particularly if you're having downlights above the screen.. but when projecting, I don't think you will..
As you say, you can always cover them if need be..