Retro-Wiring your Home Theater questions / discussion thread

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Please use this thread to for any questions or discussion relating to the
In-Wall Retro-Wiring for your Home Theater and
Guide to Splicing Speaker Wire threads.

Regards,
Wayne

[rufinatti]

Wayne, what a timely article. I was just in my attic day before yesterday, and came down dejected telling my wife there was no way I was going to be able to install wiring in the walls. I'm going to study your article and give it another go.

Thank you for taking the time to share these useful techniques.

-robert

[Anthony]

Great article Wayne. Just a few things to add:

One, they make long, flexible, extendable auger bits for drilling holes in cross bracing and ceiling/floor plates. I couldn't find it this morning, but there's an installer kit that has the three auger bits, each 18" long and 2 extension shafts for a maximum of 9' or so. It virtually eliminates the mini-patches in drywall to get around sill plates.

Two: I played around with a couple of the magnet pull kits and they work well. They are expensive ($100 or so), but they allow for pulling wire through the walls with just one kit, albeit very similar to what you have mentioned here.

Three: While some people would like to use fully enclosed boxes for their low voltage wires, code allows for low voltage to go in open boxes, which are basically wire guides and a place to screw the front plate. They are cheaper and easier to install than the full boxes (because they are smaller and open).

Finally, I always like to pull a very thin wire or nylon cord along with the bundle in order to allow me to pull another wire later, if need be. All my conduit and in-wall pulls have a cord with washers on both ends (so the far end doesn't get "lost" accidentally inside the wall). If I want to run a network wire, I just remove the washer, tape on the cable and another pull cord. Then pull it through and tie off the new pull cord. It's great for upgrades or redo's which seem to happen a lot with me

Great writeups!


Edit by Wayne Pflughaupt:

Here are a couple of sources for extension or flex bits. The flex bits come in various lengths, so you need as much overhead clearance as the bit is long. For limited headroom situations, the extension sections will be a better option, even if you have to “stack” two or three of them. Neat tools, if you don’t mind paying the price.

http://www.goodmart.com/products/too...l_bit_flex.htm
http://www.lsdinc.com/content/product_details/27
http://www.nextag.com/drill-extension/search-html

Couldn’t find a picture of a low voltage old work box, but here’s a regular nail-on box. An old work box will look similar, but with the fold-down tabs. They all seem to be orange – must be an industry thing.





Another option, sometimes a bit harder to find, is a bracket that merely frames the hole:

http://www.hometech.com/techwire/wallboxlv.html#ER-MPLS

Personally I would only use the low voltage options where there will be some kind of cover installed.

[lcaillo]

Ditto that. Great work, Wayne. Another good idea that I used to employ when I did this stuff is to use a toy crossbow pistol to shoot a string across attic spaces to pull wires. Works great in drop ceilings and when you need to get across duct work or hard to reach areas.



Edit by Wayne Pflughaupt:

If you or a friend are into archery, you can use a real one!

[santora]

Timely is right as far as this article goes. After being in our house for almost 2 years, I finally got the surround speakers set up a few months ago. I went out and got CL3 cable to run through my walls/ceiling and am in the process of finishing up the research to do this. Plenty of space in my attic, but the cross braces. That was a headache I was not looking forward to. Wayne, thanks for the help with the crossbraces!

Pix will follow when I get all this done - most likely when it cools down a bit here in LA. Not going in my attic if I can avoid it while it's 103 outside.

Mark Santora

I did retrofits for a living back in the 90's for an A/V/security company.

One the best tools to have when doing this is a 50' "fish tape", (about $18.00 at Home Depot) which is essentially a small coil of 1/8" stiff spring steel that can be pushed through a small hole in the wall or ceiling to another location such as an attic or distant location such as a cut-in speaker hole.
It's indispensable for running wires up an insulated outer wall, and hard to access attic areas near top plate/gable junctions.
Be sure to cut a 3' length from the coil to use for fishing inside wall cavities and retrieving hard to reach fish-tape runs in attics.
(you can use a standard pair of wire-cutters to bend the tape back and forth to snap off a short piece, or to easily form small hooks for attaching wires.)
To avoid banging into small obstructions, make a gentle bend (4" in 12" hook downward is good) near the end of the tape to allow it to slide over joists and pipes.

It's advisable to initially pull lengths of 4-conductor phone wire between access points, then use this wire to pull the larger wire bundles.
Have someone push the wire bundles as you pull them,(keep the run tight and straight to avoid coiling and snagging; if it snags, have them pull it back slightly then retry the pull) and pull very slowly if there's a chance that the wires will contact other wiring, foil air ducts, etc... behind the walls and ceiling. Low voltage wire casings can very quickly burn through vinyl romex casings if dragged over them rapidly(!)

Another tip is to taper the connection (about 6" of taper is sufficient) to large bundles of wires that must be pulled across roof joists etc... saves a lot of frustration and snagging.

cheers,
Snick

[srsmith]

Wayne:

Just want to thank you for the extensive and very helpful post on wiring. I wired a ceiling mounted projector used the pvc push rods to install the various cables. The distance was about 14 feet through webbed trusses.

I took a bit of a risk and did not screw the sections together as you suggested, however. I used the 1/2" copper couplers and used PVC glue on one section of PVC pipe to help hold them in place, I then just relied on friction to keep the second female section in place. The glue seemed to bind the copper sufficiently to keep it secure.

Smitty

[Bent]

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...e-theater.html
Wayne - I've been waiting for part 4 (and partially part 5) of this artical for a while now, and a friend asked me about running surround speaker wires in existing insulated and vapour-barrieredwalls just today.

She said she has procured the "big 'horkin speaker wire"... (her words).
Their place is a single story home w/o a basement, and no attic space above the HT - the ceiling above the HT is just a very well insulated (but innaccessable space), which only leave running the wires in the wall as being an option. To further complicate it, at least one run is on an exterior wall where a vapour barrier will become an issue. Any tips on how to run a wire from baseboard level up to surround height through a wall in between existing drywall (sheetrock) and a vapour barrier that they'd like to remain as in-tact as possible?

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Sorry to leave you hanging, Ben. Parts 4 and 5 have been posted.

Regards,
Wayne

Wayne,

I'm in the process of installing a few inwall speaker cables for in-ceiling speakers (multi-zone). It is a duplex type house and there is another family living on top of me. The bigger problem currently I have is that concrete ceiling. Is there any way to install those ceiling speakers on that concrete roof. And how can I pull the wires from the groundfloor to the first floor through the concrete cieling.

Any feedback is welcome..

Regards
JP

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Hi JP,

Welcome to the Forum!

As you can imagine, concrete is a pretty daunting challenge. Cutting through a concete deck (like the floor or ceiling) is a job best left to professionals, as it requires special equipment. Your best bet will be to find a location where a hole has already been cut, and drop your wiring there. This will typically be a place where water pipes, electrical conduit or air conditioning lines pass from one floor to the next.

As far as doing in-ceiling speakers - that's not going to happen. You'll need to switch to something surface-mounted. Even those can be a challenge, if you want to mount them horizontally. It will require removing the drivers and drilling through the speaker's rear panel into the ceiling. Then, special bolts and anchors would be required to secure the speakers to the ceiling.

Bottom line, it will be a lot easier to go with something wall-mounted.

Regards,
Wayne

[myrosen]

I just wanted to thank you for such a great tutorial.
I was convinced that my wall had a cross brace until I read in your article that the drywall seam can fool the stud finder. I checked it out and sure enough, that's what was happening.
You saved me from putting a large hole in the middle of my wall!
My wife is probably even more grateful than I am!

Just wanted to let you know that you helped at least one amateur with his wiring project.

Thanks again.

Myron

Dallas, TX

[madhorizons]

First off....awesome tutorial! We recently bought a house that was made circa 1983 and I'm going through surround withdrawals and with Iron Man coming out on BluRay....i have to get this done! :-P

Here's my "dilemma." I have the vaulted ceilings and was looking at that part of the room and haven't ventured into the attic yet. I do however, have the luck of my entire living room sitting over an open part of the garage. When going into the garage, i can see insulation and wires for other things there. Apologies for the really bad quality pictures, but it's what I have.

Living room where speakers will be ran


The open garage area under the living room


I was wondering if you think it'd be easier to try to still go through the attic or try going through the garage? Note: the carpet is up and there's hardwood already down...i wish i would of done this when the subflooring was bare...that would of made it a lot easier.

[Anthony]

I would always prefer bottom-up rather than attic-down.

Just prepare yourself and always drill a very small pilot hole when doing exploratory stuff. a 1/8" or 1/16" hole is easy to fill with some colored putty; a 3/4" one is not

[madhorizons]

Thoughts on this???

A co-worker suggested to drill a pilot hole where the speaker is going into the wall, tie a magnet on the end of it, go into the garage, and use a compass to find it. The compass will start going nuts when near a non-polar magnetic source (i killed several compasses as a kid finding that out).

Anyone ever try that?

I know i'm going to have to do a pilot hole or 2. I'm going to do up a generic plan of the room, b/c i'll need it for questions i have in other threads i have yet to post.

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Welcome to the Forum, Izzie!

Don’t see any reason why the magnet/compass trick wouldn’t work.

As to which you should do, over or under the garage, that depends on whether or not all three drop points – equipment rack and both surround speakers – can be accessed from under the garage. Of course, you can do a combination under-garage and in-attic if need be.

For under-garage, it’s pretty easy. In the living room, cut a hole for an old work box at electrical outlet height where you want the wire to be. Look inside the hole with a flash light and you’ll see the footer board at the bottom of the wall. Using a long drill bit, drill down through the footer board, which will put you in the open garage ceiling. At that point, you can enlarge that hole from the garage, if it needs to be.

Regards,
Wayne

[madhorizons]

Thanks! I may be performing surgery this afternoon.

Now off to ask placement questions in other threads

[bill_w]

Great resource! I've been with Verizon for a few years now and can tell you fishing walls can sometimes be an art. Now with the advent of FiOS, we've had to do more interesting runs.

Few things I would like to add:

I know this may seem to be common sense, but a slip up could cost you your life. Be VERY aware of all surrounding electric and NEVER drill blindly. When your cutting a hole in drywall, keep in mind that electric lines may be running in the same cavity you are cutting into. Check both sides of the wall for outlets. That hand saw can easily cut into the wires causing catastrophic problems. Typically, electrical outlets are mounted directly to the side of the stud, and knowing what side may be crucial. I usually try to go to the neighboring cavity if possible.

When drilling down from the attic, many times the electric comes down through the top plate. Can be useful for determining where or where not to drill. Another thing I have came across are "butted" top plates. Where two 2x4 are directly side by side, and drilling through the middle of one may put a large hole in the ceiling. You must go between them. Again, you can look on how the electric is routed.

I also regularly use a length of stiff ground wire with a hook bent on the end. Very helpful when searching around in wall for wire or fish tape you've pushed down.

Although this isnt real prevalent in homes, many business situations use the entire area above a drop ceiling as part of the HVAC system. In such a case, or anytime a run is put through ventilation, make sure it is plenum rated wire.

I would also highly recommend fiberglass fish tape over the metal. A bit pricier, but if you will be doing a few runs, it is well worth it. It is much easier to push through insulation.

Lastly, one more thing I would say about finishing tholes in drywall. Drywall tape or mesh on the joints will prevent future cracking in the spackle...

[Anthony]

If I know there are no wires in the wall, I use a hand saw for less dust.

If you aren't sure there are two options:

drill a small exploratory hole and use a periscope or non-conductive feeler to poke around the wall. The periscope I bought was about $20 and was invaluable in my last installation.

Use a rotozip or dremel set to EXACTLY the wall thickness. This creates a lot of dust, but has very little chance of hitting a wire, since the cutting implement only pokes through by a mm.


I'm very conscious of these things -- once I was mounting a shelf in my wood shop and needed to drill a hole for a screw. In the middle of drilling I heard a click. I didn't think much of it until I realized that it was the GFCI killing power to the circuit. I had drilled right through the wire. So a weekend of pulling down pegboard, rewiring, putting nailer plates everywhere and I learned my lesson. That GFCI probably saved me from at least a hospital trip, if not worse.

[Bent]

I had a co-worker cut into a conductor with a recipro-saw once. Not exactly H.T. related, as it was through a heavy chunk of "teck" cable (poly jacketed copper with an aluminum armored sheath and a rubber sheath around the aluminum).
It could have been very ugly, it was a 600 volt 500 MCM cable from the output of a 1.1 MVA diesel generator in a remote community that is used for primary generation. He cut into it between the generator and the 1000 AMP main breaker. The AVR sensed a sudden imbalance and cut excitation current almost instantly. Other than te lights going out and the saw stopping, he wouln't have known what went wrong. I was impressed, this wasn't the breaker that saved him, as he faulted the circuit prior to it - it was the Automatic Voltage regulator circuit on the unit itself.

[Owen Bartley]

Thanks for the super detailed tutorial Wayne. I hope to put it to use this weekend when I run my surround and zone 2 speaker wires in the new house. I wasn't going to use J boxes, I didn't really even think of it, but I'll make a stop by Lowes today and check out the open kind.