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post #71 of 855 Old 02-11-14, 09:08 AM
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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So this is less expensive then the clips route? I priced out the clips and they were going to run me about $1k to do the whole room. How would a double wall construction compare to using more layers of drywall?
For me, because I was deciding between either a double stud wall or a wall with clips and channel on both sides, it was cheaper to do a double stud wall. Clips and channel on both sides of just one 22 foot long wall would have been around $250, doing a double stud wall cost the lumber and insulation for the second wall, plus the cost of the IB-3 brackets to decouple the walls from the ceiling, costing about $150. Most people wouldn't use IB-3s on both "sides" of the wall, but I decided to spend the extra $35 because I have the theater on one side of the wall and the furnace on the other side. The double stud wall is a lot easier to deal with in terms of mounting speakers, shelves, electrical boxes etc as well because you can drill right into a stud without messing up your decoupling method. It makes the whole expensive 1-layer of OSB/1-layer of drywall method entirely unnecessary, and will save you a ton of money right there if you are considering that option.

As far as how it compares to using more drywall, it doesn't. Extra drywall adds mass, a double stud wall introduces decoupling. In case you aren't familiar with the four elements of soundproofing, they are:

-Decoupling (clips/channel, staggered or double stud walls, anything that keeps sound from traveling directly through the framing of the wall to the other side or above/below)
-Absorption (insulation in the wall cavities)
-Mass (drywall/heavy wood panels)
-Damping (green glue or similar products)

For more details on those, check this article out. I think it's pretty much required reading on this subject, as are most of the articles at soundproofingcompany.com.

Here's another article about the tested STC ratings of various wall assemblies that helped me decide on a double stud wall.

Ultimately though in terms of performance comparison, the double stud wall construction (when properly decoupled from the ceiling with IB-3 clips to avoid flanking) is widely considered to be the most effective method of decoupling, and when combined with the absorption of fluffy insulation in the cavities, the mass of two layers of 5/8" drywall, and damping compound between, you have an extremely effective wall.

Also it's pretty cool to be able to run wires through the walls without drilling any holes!


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post #72 of 855 Old 02-11-14, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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MrAngles wrote: View Post
For me, because I was deciding between either a double stud wall or a wall with clips and channel on both sides, it was cheaper to do a double stud wall. Clips and channel on both sides of just one 22 foot long wall would have been around $250, doing a double stud wall cost the lumber and insulation for the second wall, plus the cost of the IB-3 brackets to decouple the walls from the ceiling, costing about $150. Most people wouldn't use IB-3s on both "sides" of the wall, but I decided to spend the extra $35 because I have the theater on one side of the wall and the furnace on the other side. The double stud wall is a lot easier to deal with in terms of mounting speakers, shelves, electrical boxes etc as well because you can drill right into a stud without messing up your decoupling method. It makes the whole expensive 1-layer of OSB/1-layer of drywall method entirely unnecessary, and will save you a ton of money right there if you are considering that option.

As far as how it compares to using more drywall, it doesn't. Extra drywall adds mass, a double stud wall introduces decoupling. In case you aren't familiar with the four elements of soundproofing, they are:

-Decoupling (clips/channel, staggered or double stud walls, anything that keeps sound from traveling directly through the framing of the wall to the other side or above/below)
-Absorption (insulation in the wall cavities)
-Mass (drywall/heavy wood panels)
-Damping (green glue or similar products)

For more details on those, check this article out. I think it's pretty much required reading on this subject, as are most of the articles at soundproofingcompany.com.

Here's another article about the tested STC ratings of various wall assemblies that helped me decide on a double stud wall.

Ultimately though in terms of performance comparison, the double stud wall construction (when properly decoupled from the ceiling with IB-3 clips to avoid flanking) is widely considered to be the most effective method of decoupling, and when combined with the absorption of fluffy insulation in the cavities, the mass of two layers of 5/8" drywall, and damping compound between, you have an extremely effective wall.

Also it's pretty cool to be able to run wires through the walls without drilling any holes!
I looked at the article last night when you posted the pic of the IB-3 clips... I have been wavering between doing clips and saving a little space and double wall for a bit now. How much space did you have between the 2 walls? When I read the articles, I saw that they still use clips on the ceiling. Did you use clips on the ceiling or did you just use the IB-3? I also saw where they talked about using as many as 4 layers of drywall on the walls...


How do you deal with the location of the projector? I currently have a BenQ w1070 but will be getting a different projector maybe in a year or two... The throw will most likely be different. I have though about maybe making a false beam down the center of the room that way if I need to go to a different projector I could with minimal work. Another idea was to put a slide on the ceiling to adjust the projector but I am worried about the subs vibrating it, and causing a rattle.

Ron

My Home Theater
BenQ MH741 Projector, Yamaha CX-A5100, (2 pr) JBL 8340As, (2 pr) JBL 8320s, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus Mini, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster Signature HTPS7000, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, (2) DTS-10 subs, SeymourAV 180 (195" diag) scope screen, Darbee Darcet,Yamaha P7000s, Oppo UDP-203

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post #73 of 855 Old 02-11-14, 10:28 AM
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
I looked at the article last night when you posted the pic of the IB-3 clips... I have been wavering between doing clips and saving a little space and double wall for a bit now. How much space did you have between the 2 walls? When I read the articles, I saw that they still use clips on the ceiling. Did you use clips on the ceiling or did you just use the IB-3? I also saw where they talked about using as many as 4 layers of drywall on the walls...
I left an inch between the two wall frames, which ends up making the walls 10.5" thick overall including 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on each side.

The equivalent of the double wall for ceilings is the "floating joist" method, described in this article. You install entirely new joists in the ceiling cavities to support the ceiling. This costs a lot more than a double wall though because you need much larger lumber, and I can't imagine it's easy to install, plus you lose room for wiring, ducts, etc. up there. Not an option for me, so I used the standard clip and channel system for the ceiling decoupling.

I actually talked to Ted White at the soundproofing company about a third layer of drywall, and he said that some people do it, but it's too impractical for most people, and after you have two layers your money is better spent fixing flanking issues such as doors, vents, etc, because they will be your weak links at that point. Even if you have a 3-foot thick wall, your door is still only 1-3/4" thick at most, all your outlet and switch gang boxes are made out of thin plastic, your lights are punching holes through all that that thick drywall, etc.


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post #74 of 855 Old 02-11-14, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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I left an inch between the two wall frames, which ends up making the walls 10.5" thick overall including 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on each side.

The equivalent of the double wall for ceilings is the "floating joist" method, described in this article. You install entirely new joists in the ceiling cavities to support the ceiling. This costs a lot more than a double wall though because you need much larger lumber, and I can't imagine it's easy to install, plus you lose room for wiring, ducts, etc. up there. Not an option for me, so I used the standard clip and channel system for the ceiling decoupling.

I actually talked to Ted White at the soundproofing company about a third layer of drywall, and he said that some people do it, but it's too impractical for most people, and after you have two layers your money is better spent fixing flanking issues such as doors, vents, etc, because they will be your weak links at that point. Even if you have a 3-foot thick wall, your door is still only 1-3/4" thick at most, all your outlet and switch gang boxes are made out of thin plastic, your lights are punching holes through all that that thick drywall, etc.
So you left the original drywall up and then put up a new wall with double layers of drywall on each side of the wall? When I was reading I got the impression that it was suggested that you only have the double layers of drywall on the original wall (exterior side), and the new wall (interior side), leaving both walls open to each other with only the fiberglass in between them. Am I missing something?

Ron

My Home Theater
BenQ MH741 Projector, Yamaha CX-A5100, (2 pr) JBL 8340As, (2 pr) JBL 8320s, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus Mini, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster Signature HTPS7000, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, (2) DTS-10 subs, SeymourAV 180 (195" diag) scope screen, Darbee Darcet,Yamaha P7000s, Oppo UDP-203

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post #75 of 855 Old 02-11-14, 11:00 AM
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
So you left the original drywall up and then put up a new wall with double layers of drywall on each side of the wall? When I was reading I got the impression that it was suggested that you only have the double layers of drywall on the original wall (exterior side), and the new wall (interior side), leaving both walls open to each other with only the fiberglass in between them. Am I missing something?
No, I built my walls from scratch, there was no existing wall. You never want mass (drywall) inside the wall. My walls are built like this:

Two layers of 5/8" Drywall w/ Green Glue
3-1/2" Wall frame with fiberglass insulation
1 Inch air cavity
3-1/2" Wall frame with fiberglass insulation
Two layers of 5/8" Drywall w/ Green Glue

For a total of 10.5 inches.


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post #76 of 855 Old 02-11-14, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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No, I built my walls from scratch, there was no existing wall. You never want mass (drywall) inside the wall. My walls are built like this:

Two layers of 5/8" Drywall w/ Green Glue
3-1/2" Wall frame with fiberglass insulation
1 Inch air cavity
3-1/2" Wall frame with fiberglass insulation
Two layers of 5/8" Drywall w/ Green Glue

For a total of 10.5 inches.
So what I am thinking...

1. Rip out the drywall from the ceiling
2. Install clips for dryall in the ceiling and install gg, drywall,fiberglass, run electrical wiring, drywall (between the joists).
3. Install clips and install drywall, gg, drywall for the ceiling, cutout for electrical boxes for low voltage lighting and projector power, seal boxes, install lights, and outlet for projector
4. Rip off the old drywall and seal off all openings to the outside of the house, ie. cable box, main power line etc.
5. Run electrical wire for switches, and speaker wires.
6. Re-install the fiberglass insulation (if possible).
7. Build a new 2x4 framed wall on 24" centers, one inch from the old wall, and run electrical lines.
8. Install OSB, gg, drywall, gg, drywall, cut out holes for switches, and outlets
9. Install vapor barrier for complete floor.
10. Install 3/4" OSB sub floor on top of 2x4 laid on its side 1 1/2" high sub floor for everywhere except 2nd row.
11. Build rear sub floor for second floor, run electrical wire for outlets, low voltage lighting,run lan wire, stuff floor with fiberglass and top off with 3/4" OSB
12. Install carpet pad, and carpet.
13. Install Bar, microwave, and mini fridge for bar behind 2nd row of seating.
14. Install power recliners.
15. Hook up all equipment and test acoustics.
16. Apply room treatments.
17. Fire up the projector and calibrate.
18. Fire up a movie.
19. Open a Murphys Stout, and enjoy!

Am I missing anything?

Ron

My Home Theater
BenQ MH741 Projector, Yamaha CX-A5100, (2 pr) JBL 8340As, (2 pr) JBL 8320s, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus Mini, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster Signature HTPS7000, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, (2) DTS-10 subs, SeymourAV 180 (195" diag) scope screen, Darbee Darcet,Yamaha P7000s, Oppo UDP-203

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post #77 of 855 Old 02-12-14, 05:43 AM
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
So what I am thinking...

1. Rip out the drywall from the ceiling
2. Install clips for dryall in the ceiling and install gg, drywall,fiberglass, run electrical wiring, drywall (between the joists).
3. Install clips and install drywall, gg, drywall for the ceiling, cutout for electrical boxes for low voltage lighting and projector power, seal boxes, install lights, and outlet for projector
4. Rip off the old drywall and seal off all openings to the outside of the house, ie. cable box, main power line etc.
5. Run electrical wire for switches, and speaker wires.
6. Re-install the fiberglass insulation (if possible).
7. Build a new 2x4 framed wall on 24" centers, one inch from the old wall, and run electrical lines.
8. Install OSB, gg, drywall, gg, drywall, cut out holes for switches, and outlets
9. Install vapor barrier for complete floor.
10. Install 3/4" OSB sub floor on top of 2x4 laid on its side 1 1/2" high sub floor for everywhere except 2nd row.
11. Build rear sub floor for second floor, run electrical wire for outlets, low voltage lighting,run lan wire, stuff floor with fiberglass and top off with 3/4" OSB
12. Install carpet pad, and carpet.
13. Install Bar, microwave, and mini fridge for bar behind 2nd row of seating.
14. Install power recliners.
15. Hook up all equipment and test acoustics.
16. Apply room treatments.
17. Fire up the projector and calibrate.
18. Fire up a movie.
19. Open a Murphys Stout, and enjoy!

Am I missing anything?
I think that's a good plan to start Ron. A couple suggestions I have - if you have a lower ceiling like I did, you can save a bit of height by installing 2x4 cross pieces between the joists to attach the clips /channel to. I took pictures when I did it so you can see that in my build.

Also, remember that some appliances introduce a hump in your response when measuring with REW. I believe refrigerators are one of these...


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post #78 of 855 Old 02-12-14, 08:37 AM
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
So what I am thinking...

1. Rip out the drywall from the ceiling
2. Install clips for dryall in the ceiling and install gg, drywall,fiberglass, run electrical wiring, drywall (between the joists).
3. Install clips and install drywall, gg, drywall for the ceiling, cutout for electrical boxes for low voltage lighting and projector power, seal boxes, install lights, and outlet for projector
4. Rip off the old drywall and seal off all openings to the outside of the house, ie. cable box, main power line etc.
5. Run electrical wire for switches, and speaker wires.
6. Re-install the fiberglass insulation (if possible).
7. Build a new 2x4 framed wall on 24" centers, one inch from the old wall, and run electrical lines.
8. Install OSB, gg, drywall, gg, drywall, cut out holes for switches, and outlets
9. Install vapor barrier for complete floor.
10. Install 3/4" OSB sub floor on top of 2x4 laid on its side 1 1/2" high sub floor for everywhere except 2nd row.
11. Build rear sub floor for second floor, run electrical wire for outlets, low voltage lighting,run lan wire, stuff floor with fiberglass and top off with 3/4" OSB
12. Install carpet pad, and carpet.
13. Install Bar, microwave, and mini fridge for bar behind 2nd row of seating.
14. Install power recliners.
15. Hook up all equipment and test acoustics.
16. Apply room treatments.
17. Fire up the projector and calibrate.
18. Fire up a movie.
19. Open a Murphys Stout, and enjoy!

Am I missing anything?
Just a few comments, regarding sound transfer to the bedroom upstairs, as I understand it's your main concern.

You mention two layers of drywall on the ceiling, but a layer of OSB along with two layers of drywall on the walls. With this setup the weak point is going to be the ceiling, both because of the bedroom being directly above the ceiling, and that the clips and channel are less effective at soundproofing than the double stud wall construction. Because of that, using three layers of mass on the walls is kind of a waste, when you only have two layers on the ceiling. I would do three layers of mass and green glue on the ceiling (whether it's OSB and two layers of drywall, or just three layers of drywall) and I would skip the OSB altogether on the walls to save money since with a double stud wall you'll have studs to mount things to directly.

Also you mention lighting, but you don't go into much detail. The more holes you cut in your ceiling for lights the more sound is going to get through, even if you build backer boxes for all of them. I'd probably build soffits around the perimeter of the room after the walls and ceiling are complete, and put all the lighting in there, to keep the ceiling sealed. You can also mount your projector in or near the soffit and have the cabling for it go through there.


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post #79 of 855 Old 02-12-14, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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ALMFamily wrote: View Post
I think that's a good plan to start Ron. A couple suggestions I have - if you have a lower ceiling like I did, you can save a bit of height by installing 2x4 cross pieces between the joists to attach the clips /channel to. I took pictures when I did it so you can see that in my build.

Also, remember that some appliances introduce a hump in your response when measuring with REW. I believe refrigerators are one of these...
Ok, got it... What do you do if you want to use a mini fridge then? I was planning on having the fridge, microwave, and seating on a separate circuit.

Ron

My Home Theater
BenQ MH741 Projector, Yamaha CX-A5100, (2 pr) JBL 8340As, (2 pr) JBL 8320s, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus Mini, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster Signature HTPS7000, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, (2) DTS-10 subs, SeymourAV 180 (195" diag) scope screen, Darbee Darcet,Yamaha P7000s, Oppo UDP-203

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post #80 of 855 Old 02-12-14, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: My retirement Home Theater

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MrAngles wrote: View Post
Just a few comments, regarding sound transfer to the bedroom upstairs, as I understand it's your main concern.

You mention two layers of drywall on the ceiling, but a layer of OSB along with two layers of drywall on the walls. With this setup the weak point is going to be the ceiling, both because of the bedroom being directly above the ceiling, and that the clips and channel are less effective at soundproofing than the double stud wall construction. Because of that, using three layers of mass on the walls is kind of a waste, when you only have two layers on the ceiling. I would do three layers of mass and green glue on the ceiling (whether it's OSB and two layers of drywall, or just three layers of drywall) and I would skip the OSB altogether on the walls to save money since with a double stud wall you'll have studs to mount things to directly.

Also you mention lighting, but you don't go into much detail. The more holes you cut in your ceiling for lights the more sound is going to get through, even if you build backer boxes for all of them. I'd probably build soffits around the perimeter of the room after the walls and ceiling are complete, and put all the lighting in there, to keep the ceiling sealed. You can also mount your projector in or near the soffit and have the cabling for it go through there.
Gotcha... Would it be ok to make a soffit that was at an angle, and came out about 2-3',maybe at a 45 degree angle so I could mount my surrounds in it too?

Ron

My Home Theater
BenQ MH741 Projector, Yamaha CX-A5100, (2 pr) JBL 8340As, (2 pr) JBL 8320s, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus Mini, Redmere HDMI cables, Monster Signature HTPS7000, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, (2) DTS-10 subs, SeymourAV 180 (195" diag) scope screen, Darbee Darcet,Yamaha P7000s, Oppo UDP-203

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