Help in Design of Difficult New Home Theatre New Home Construction

[Conrad]

Hi I am in the middle of construction of our new dream house and we our having a dedicated HT room, but due to architects design of house the HT room was not an optimal shape and size please see attached drawing for specs and info. The room has a 9 ft in ceiling height.

The projector I am more than likely go to go with is a Sony Model Number: VPL-VW60 link for specs

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665192796

First I would like to have two rows of seating with a riser but I think I do not have enough distance or length in the room at 15'2". Can anyone please advise either way on this if it is possible. Or should I stay with just one row of theater or recliner chairs or a couch. I am am open to any suggestions for furniture sizes that will work best to fit my room.

Secondly what size screen can I go to match the room perfectly. What is the optimal size I should go with. I want to have a stage built around the screen too. I think this will add to the overall effect to make room more theater like. And with that in mind what then what would be the optimal viewing distance. I do prefer a wider screen ratio too if possible if the room size allows it.

Thirdly where would be the best possible position for the speakers? I would like to run a 7.1 set up. I will have floor standing tower speakers for the front and rear. However I could go with wall mounted rear speakers if the room layout requires it. To optimize the shorter length in the room for better sound quality.

Right now the room is just been framed I am about to wire it up so any ideas would greatly help.

Thank You very much in advance

Oil Country

[Prof.]

Conrad wrote:

First I would like to have two rows of seating with a riser but I think I do not have enough distance or length in the room at 15'2". Can anyone please advise either way on this if it is possible. Or should I stay with just one row of theater or recliner chairs or a couch. I am am open to any suggestions for furniture sizes that will work best to fit my room.

Hi Conrad and welcome to The Shack.

My theatre is the same length as yours and I can only fit one row of recliner seats..
I have however lost about 2' out of the length of the room by having a screen wall biult out from the front wall, so if you're not planning on a screen wall then you might just squeeze in two rows..
But that will also depend on what size screen you're going to use..

Conrad wrote:

Secondly what size screen can I go to match the room perfectly. What is the optimal size I should go with. I want to have a stage built around the screen too. I think this will add to the overall effect to make room more theater like. And with that in mind what then what would be the optimal viewing distance. I do prefer a wider screen ratio too if possible if the room size allows it.

As mentioned above, that will depend on whether you go with two rows or one..
With one row I have a screen 8' wide in a room which is only 10' wide, but then I have a Cinemascope set up, using a constant image height..
In your room you would be able to use an even wider screen, and if you're planning on using the standard 16:9 AR then a 120" screen would fit well..

Conrad wrote:

Thirdly where would be the best possible position for the speakers? I would like to run a 7.1 set up. I will have floor standing tower speakers for the front and rear. However I could go with wall mounted rear speakers if the room layout requires it. To optimize the shorter length in the room for better sound quality.

Yes, I would seriously consider going with di-pole surrounds mounted fairly high up, but you may not have enough length for 7.1..
I have a 7.1 receiver but can only use 5.1 in my room..

I hope that is of some help for you..

[Sonnie]

You say that you are in construction... are the walls already up and/or do you have any options to move walls in the space above?

[Conrad]

Hi thank you everyone so far for the info. This forum is great.

Sonnie quote:
"You say that you are in construction... are the walls already up and/or do you have any options to move walls in the space above?"

First of all the theatre is in the basement so the concrete is there. As for framing the walls have been put up, they have just been framed. Some furnace ducts in ceiling so far. The walls could be moved slightly, or another wall could be framed around some of them. Of course this would come at an extra cost, Sonnie what did you have in mind? Do think I should try to create a more rectangular room if possible? Please let me know what you are thinking? Is the room going to sound terrible? Because it is not the idea dimensions? Or can I make it decent sounding still?

Cheers

Conrad

[Conrad]

Thanks Prof !!! How does your theater feel at that length do you feel like you are crowding the screen? And looking side to side during the action. Or can you enjoy the movies at that screen size? And do you have any photos of your HT room? I am favoring of only going with one row. As I want to build a stage too or screen wall. What width is your room? And what do you have for seating?

Thanks

Conrad

[Scuba Diver]

I have a 15.5 deep by 13.5 wide room I set up a riser with two rows of seating. The screen distance is not a problem. However, I would like to have had a bit more clearance between the back wall and the riser seats. Screen size is 102 wide.

Do you own a projector? Just setup some chairs and light up the wall to see what size screen works for you. Then shop for a screen to match that size.

[bpape]

Having a false screen wall does not impact the proper placement of seating provided it is a false wall with just framing and cloth (no drywall) as the overall acoustical room dimensions are the same - it's just the visual size that's impacted.

You can fit 2 rows of 3 very nicely in there. You may want to consider non-recliners in the rear row to allow better placement options. 9.4' to seated ear position from the REAL front wall is a good planning point. Screen size in that area depends on a few factors:

- How do you like to watch? Are you a front of the theater guy, middle, etc.?

- Are you going with an acoustically transparent screen so speakers would go inside the screen width or not? (This will determine how much space you have for speakers to the side of the screen to avoid boundary issues)

Bryan

[Prof.]

Conrad wrote:

Thanks Prof !!! How does your theater feel at that length do you feel like you are crowding the screen? And looking side to side during the action. Or can you enjoy the movies at that screen size? And do you have any photos of your HT room? I am favoring of only going with one row. As I want to build a stage too or screen wall. What width is your room? And what do you have for seating?

Thanks

Conrad

I sit 9'6" from the screen and with an 8' wide screen, you really feel a part of the action!!
With a Scope screen (2.37:1) and an Anamorphic lens, you are generally able to sit closer without the need to look side to side..
With an 8' wide !6:9 screen however, you would find that you need more distance from the screen..
My room width measures 10'6" which lets me just fit in three recliners across the room...

When sitting in the room with the lights on, you feel that you're sitting very close to the screen and the room feels quite small..But when the lights dim and this bright image spreads virtually across the room, you forget about the size of the room..

The photo's show the situation...



This was just a temporary set up..The power cord was re-routed later..


I couldn't get far enough back to include the complete side seats, but they just fit across the room with only a few inches to spare..

[Conrad]

[QUOTE=Prof.;63675]I sit 9'6" from the screen and with an 8' wide screen, you really feel a part of the action!!
With a Scope screen (2.37:1) and an Anamorphic lens, you are generally able to sit closer without the need to look side to side..

Hi Prof thanks for the pics, a picture say a thousand words. I am fairly new to the projector and screen terms. As I have not bought either or have had any experience with them. What do you mean by the terms Scope screen and Anamorphic lens? I like the idea of not moving my head side to side. And for cost of the above how do they compare to an normal fixed screen and lens?

Thanks

Conrad

[Conrad]

Hi Bryan thanks for the info. First I am going for a fixed non transparent screen. With 2 Tower speakers beside screen I guess, and center underneath I thought. I do prefer to be back or middle when viewing in actual movie theater. What side do you think I should have screen on and why? I am leaning toward 23'7" side for screen I thought. So I would have more room for speakers.

Cheers

Conrad

[Conrad]

Hi Scuba diver I do not have either of the equipment yet to test anything out. Do you have any photos of your room I would love to see what a room close to mind would look like approximately.

Cheers

Conrad

[bpape]

I'd personally have the screen on the top wall of the drawing. That allows me a lot of good with one tradeoff:

Positives:

- Screen is father from doors for any light spill when people come/leave
- Seating in rear row is MUCH more open on the sides
- Entry/exit to the room does not impact screen visibility
- Treatment of front corners of room is possible

Negatives
- Need to watch L and R speaker spacing

Realistically, in a room that length and with you being a mid to rear type of guy, the screen isn't going to be large enough to cause a speaker positioning problem with regard to the side walls IMO.

Bryan

[jt1]

I am new to this but if you could get rid of the 4 x 9.5 wall you would have an 18 x 15 room to use. You could even put a smaller door in the other storage room to use that wall for your screen.

[Prof.]

Conrad wrote:

What do you mean by the terms Scope screen and Anamorphic lens? I like the idea of not moving my head side to side. And for cost of the above how do they compare to an normal fixed screen and lens?
Conrad

Conrad...A Scope screen is also known as a Constant Image Height (CIH) screen...
This means that the aspect ratio's 16:9,1.85:1 and 2.35:1 are all projectored to the same height, which negates the need for any top and bottom masking...just side masking only..
This is achieved by using an Anamorphic lens, which sits in front of your normal projector lens..The Anamorphic lens stretches the image 33% wider than the projector lens..

Here's how it works...
If you're viewing a movie that has an aspect ratio of 2.35:1, and your screen has an AR of 16:9, you would normally see black bars top and bottom that require masking..
If you then project that image onto a 2.35:1 screen and zoom the image to fill the screen, then you don't see any bars..
The problem with doing it this way however is that you are increasing the pixelation of the image which shows up as increased "screendoor effect" (SDE)..and requires you to view from a longer distance..

With CIH and Anamorphic lens setup, you first set the AR on the projector to 16:9 for your 2.35:1 image..
The image is then electronically stretched vertically by either the built in projector facility or a DVD player that has that facility..
This of course will make figures look tall and skinny so the Anamorphic lens then stretches the image horizontally to return the image to the correct size and shape..

The advantages of doing it this way is that you haven't increased the size of the pixels from the original AR, and you haven't had to zoom the lens to fill the screen..
The end result is that you're able to sit closer to the screen than would normally be possible, and you get a very immersive image that is crystal clear..
There are other advantages as well, one being that you don't have to zoom your lens in and out and re-focus each time for different AR's...

The down side is that the Anamorphic lenses in the US cost as much as a good projector and do require some additional mounting system for them to sit in front of the projector..

If your budget permits...It's the way to go..particularly for a room of your size..

[MatrixDweller]

I can see the benefit of having the screen on the south wall. The rear seating riser can run wall to wall, and will look better.

As for screen size and how far back you're going to sit. The Sony projector you're considering won't have any screen door effect so you can sit pretty close. Optimal THX viewing is a 26° angle from the rear most seats and 36° optimal. A calculator can be found -> here <-. Also check out projectorcentral's projection calculator for a rough guess to the screen size to brightness given where it's mounted. According to them the VPL-VW60 is not too bright so you'll probably not want a huge screen.

Given that 2 rows of seating is better than 1 (looks impressive too) you'll need a good 5 feet or more (if you want recliners) for the platform. That leaves the primary viewing distance at around 9 to 10 feet. That's almost the same as the room I'm constructing. I calculated that a 90" diagonal screen was optimal according to THX standards. If you like to sit closer than 2/3rds the way back in a movie theater then bigger might suit you.

At full zoom and the VPL-VW60 mounted 9' 4" back you could have a 92" screen. According to projector central's calculator the Sony would output 18fL which means you won't be able to watch with the lights on.

Have a look at the Panasonic PT-AE2000U. It's not an SXRD projector, but it's quite a bit cheaper, brighter and has a pretty sharp picture. The Sony has a better contrast ratio on paper but according to reviews it's misleading. For a couple grand less you wouldn't think the Panny could compete, but that's not the case. I would definitly demo some other 1080p projectors unless you are getting an unbelievable deal on the Sony.

[MatrixDweller]

Prof. wrote:

If your budget permits...It's the way to go..particularly for a room of your size..

Don't good anamorphic lenses start at around $2000. Then add the increase expense of a 2.35 ratio screen, plus a projector that supports anamorphic stretching and you've upped the price by a factor of 3 over a standard 16:9 setup.

Nothing beats cine-wide though.

[Conrad]

Hi folks thanks for all the info so far. This is what I have thought about if I decide I have enough room for two rows. I will probably put the screen on the south wall as then I can put that back row right against the wall. However if I go with the screen on North wall I would go with one row and have a bit more room to play with the surround room speakers sound field. As for light entering room the area is dark leading up to it and light leaking in will not be an issue. The room will be pitch black if I want it to be. That is one good thing so far about the design.

And regarding the Projector I am very intrigued about this anamorphic lens. This seems the way to go. I have chosen the Sony projector because my brother works for Sony of Canada and I get any item 10% below cost plus 5% tax. However with that being said I will still look at other projectors.

Can anyone name a couple anamorphic lens models for me to look at on the web. So I can see how the pricing compares. And would it work with that Sony Model Number: VPL-VW60 link for specs http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665192796.

And is a special screen required also? If so any models or links would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You

Conrad

[bpape]

If you decide to go with the screen on the south wall, PLEASE do not put any seating right against a wall. That's an awful place for sound. Your bass will be very boomy and you'll find it next to impossible to get a decent surround effect.

Bryan

[Conrad]

Hi Bryan thanks for the tip. How far off the back wall should I keep the rear seats to have any sort of surround effect still exist and not have the bass sound awful?

And to update my interest in Anamorphic lens I spoke to a fellow at Panamorph and he explained all about the UH380 Professional Grade Horizontal Expansion Lens. It sounds amazing like Prof had described above but you need the screen to go with it too he said. However with the UH380 Professional Grade Horizontal Expansion Lens MRSP at $2995 it is a steep price tag. He also said it is very beneficial to have a M380 Transport for UH380 Lens MRSP $2995 and the P380 Attachment Kit for the UH380 Lens and/or the M380 Transport MRSP $ 495. However after a lengthy conversation he agree that I could do with out the Transport but life would be easier with the Attachment kit. Does anyone have any experience without the transport? The fellow at Panamorph said the resolution would degrade by 15% at the most or would not be as sharp or accurate as it could be unless I all the movies I played were at 2.35 to 1 AR.

Thank You

Conrad

[John Simpson]

Hi Conrad,

Call it personal taste, but once you experience 2.35:1 home cinema it's hard to go back to regular 16:9. Well, that's how I'm justifyig the massive price jump to the wife at least...

The anamorphic lens works by stretching your projector beam out horizonally, as explained by Prof. So that you don't end up with lots of fat people and even longer black bars at the top and bottom, the projector stretches the image out vertically. Together you get an image that looks correct, in a lovely widescreen format.

The Pana guy reckons you'll lose 15% if you keep the lens fixed, which I assume means 15% of the picture (top and bottom). The project will still stretch the 16:9 movies vertically, thinking they have black bars, and you'll end up with a 2.35:1 movie with the top of people's heads cut off.

But I'm not sure why you'll get a loss of quality and sharpness. The projector is making the vertical stretch, not the lens, so you should still have the same number of pixels on screen.

Can anyone else see what the salesman is talking about?

[Prof.]

What the salesman is talking about is if you leave the lens in place to watch 16:9 movies or tv transmissions, you lose about 15% (?) of resolution when you project through the anamorphic lens..
I doubt it's this much and even though I can notice some difference with and without the lens in place. it's minimal..
When you leave the lens in place for 16:9 viewing, you have to set your AR on the projector to 4:3 anyway, which maintains full pixel resolution, and is then stretched out to 16:9 by the lens..The same height of image is maintained for all AR's..
I leave my lens in place all the time..as do many others

The Transport he's referring to is just a slide assembly for moving the lens away from the projector..
At that price it should be a motorized remote control device..Totally unnecessary in my opinion..unless you have to stand on a ladder to reach your projector!

Conrad..If you are a DIY type of guy, there is a much cheaper way of having an Anamorphic lens and Scope screen..

An Anamorphic lens is basically just two big prisms ( some commercial brands use three or four ) aligned in a certain manner and housed in a box..
Many guys have made their own by just buying the prisms and making a box to suit..
I bought my lens in kit form and assembled it and did the aligning myself, and believe me, If I can do it, anybody can..
Some guys who have table mounted projectors just stand the prisms in front of the projector lens...
That's how easy it can be..

As far as a Scope screen goes, many including myself make their own screen, and using the right type of materials produces a screen almost as good as many expensive commercial screens..

If you're interested in going this route, I can give you further information on what is requited to do a complete DIY Anamorphic set up..

[bpape]

Hi Conrad.

At a very bare minimum, I'd want 3' behind my seated ear position.

Bryan

[Conrad]

Hi Prof and John, you are absolutely correct in describing the anamorphic lens. As I thought to myself in thinking that transport sled was more of a extra add on that was not really needed. Even the sales guy kind of came clean when I said the wife would not go this lens and the sled. After I told him that he said the lens is good enough by itself. The sled is only really an extra feature, but I guess by quoting the 15% improvement in picture he was justifying the extra $3000 dollars. Go figure I guess his money comes from a different tree than the one I planted

Prof I am very excited and interested in making the screen and setting up the lens for a fraction of the cost. I am not to bad at DIY projects as long as the instructions are easy to follow. Also I was speaking to my carpenter today is there anything I should know or do to the screen wall before drywall or electrical goes in? Like reinforcement to wall, extra studs to be added? How far on the wall will the screen come out?

And for a quick measurement what is the height and length of scope screen that will fit in my room. See diagram at top of post. I need to know this so I can measure how close the screen will come to the media storage closet doors when they open up. Will I have enough room for scope screen and a tower speaker PSB Stratus Gold i's with out the door smashing into speaker.

Cheers

Conrad

[Conrad]

Hi Bryan thanks for the heads up on the measurement. I am really racking my brain on this one. I was speaking to my carpenter today and we were remeasuring the room today and we can not get one extra inch out of the room. I guess if I do not build out a stage this will help a bit I guess or not? So with just a scope screen as described by Prof above right against drywall with Tower speakers to the Left and right and center below screen. Here are three options I will attach for folks to give me their honest opinion what they would choose and why.

1# option Lets say first the maximum room length that we would get would be lets say 14'10" after drywall, and if I were to leave 3 feet behind back row as Bryan suggested and then have a 5 foot riser base to allow for couch or chairs to be placed on. That would leave the first row at a approx distance 6"10' from the scope screen. Is that seem to close for viewing a scope screen?

Or option #2 What I could do is have the riser base only 2 feet from the back wall, and make the riser base only 4 feet in depth, and this would bring the front row to viewing distance of 8'10" if my calculations are correct, which to me seems more livable with me as long as the surround effect is still there for the second row.

Option #3 I could scrap the whole idea of second row and riser and then place the theater seats 4 feet from the back wall not on a riser and your prime viewing distance from a single row would be 10'10" from the scope screen. But it would be nice to have more seating than for just three.


Or Option #4 What ever you think my work better than the three suggested above.

I will attach the three scenarios below please anyone let me know what you would prefer to do if it were HT room and why.

Thanks In Advance

Conrad

[Prof.]

Conrad,

Option 1....No
Option 2....possibly, but a bit too close
Option 3....better, but still not right..
Option 4....?

Since you have more width to your room than I have, you can use a screen 8'-9' wide...
However, the width of your screen will determine how far you need to sit back from it..
With my 8' wide Scope screen, I sit 9'6" back, and that's as close as I can get and still feel comfortable watching it..

If you're mounting the screen on the wall, then you haven't taken anything out of the length of the room, so you still have about 14'10" to play with..

Now, if you use an 8' wide screen and sit at 9'6" you have less than 5' left (taking into fact that the 9'6" is the head position, so you have a few inches to include for the thickness of the chair back)..which would still give you enough room for a second row couch or non recliners..

If you go for a 9' wide screen ( which I think would look ideal in that width room ) you will need to sit back a minimum of 10'6", which only leaves 4' to the back wall and probably just enough room to squeeze in a small chair, but that would not be a good position sound wise..
You are also getting close to the limit for free space needed behind your front chairs to the back wall as Bryan mentioned..

In a nutshell, 8' wide screen...2 rows possible..9' wide screen...1 row only..

BTW...You only need standard framing on the front wall for mounting the screen...
If you use a "French cleat" to hang the screen, which is the simplest and most effective way of mounting a screen, it will just be attached to the upright timbers across the width of the screen..