Acoustical treatments and WAF

**jr1414** · **12-04-07, 09:59 AM**

I've been tweaking my HT (in the living room setup, no basement!) and am at the point where I really need to consider some acoustical treatments. Do any of you have ideas that have proven to have desireable WAF? I'd like to make some of my own panels, but considering that they're in our main living space, I'd buy something if I thought she'd accept it. Any ideas?

**avaserfi** · **12-04-07, 10:04 AM**

For some good looking panels that you can purchase I would recommend Ready Acoustics. They use pretty nice metal frames that come in a variety of colors along with micro suede cloth.

Another option is one I haven't had a chance to test, but a friend of mine will be doing soon and should work. If your wife likes tapestries I would suggest buying some OC705 FRK (faced) and a thick wool tapestry with loose weaving. Adhere the faced side of the fiberglass to the back of the wool tapestry and hang it on the wall. This will work by allowing the wool to absorb the higher frequencies while the faced fiberglass takes care of the lower frequencies.

**bpape** · **12-04-07, 11:13 AM**

Or you can buy the unfaced and save some money and have it do basically the same thing. The FSK only provides a hump in absorbtion at a narrow frequency band. Given a specific density and thickness of material, this can shift significantly and may or may not be appropriate for specific problems in a given room.

If I may put in a plug, we'll be coming out with some new panels shortly that will have nice wood side panels to them with a choice of stain colors. Couple that with one of the nicer Guilford fabrics and it might just be something she'd live with as part of the decor.

Bryan

**avaserfi** · **12-04-07, 11:38 AM**

Quote:

bpape wrote:

Or you can buy the unfaced and save some money and have it do basically the same thing. The FSK only provides a hump in absorbtion at a narrow frequency band. Given a specific density and thickness of material, this can shift significantly and may or may not be appropriate for specific problems in a given room.

I was under the impression membranes increased absorption for lower frequencies due to the vibrations that occur when they hit the membrane. This is why a faced material is chosen for the specified application as the thick wool will take care of the higher frequencies allowing for the membraned fiberglass to only need to absorb the lower frequencies.

**bpape** · **12-04-07, 11:50 AM**

As I said, what you're dealing with here is a damped/bonded membrane. It will only increase absorbtion over a narrow range whose center is determined by the density and thickness of the material behind it.

2" 703
0.17 0.86 1.14 1.07 1.02 0.98
2" 703 FSK
0.63 0.56 0.95 0.79 0.60 0.35

Notice it's better at 125Hz but worrse at 250 and 500Hz? Thin wool won't fix that. Also, a normal wall (single drywall) will already absorb a lot around 125Hz. Do we reallly want/need to put our center there for another peak absorber? Depends on the rest of the room.

1" 703
0.11 0.28 0.68 0.90 0.93 0.96
1: 703 FSK
0.18 0.75 0.58 0.72 0.62 0.35

Here the hump is at 250Hz and little changed at 125hz and lower

Also, for reflection panels, remember that male vocals can extend as low as 200Hz. If you're wanting to deal with reflections in the vocal range, an FSK facing is not desirable and the wool won't reach low enough to compensate.

Now, for NON-reflection panels like on the rear wall and in the rear corners where we just want more bottom end control without overdeadening the highs, we use thicker panels with a membrane over them to accomplish that.

Unfortunately, there is no one single best answer. A room and it's treatment are a system. One must consider the whole thing including seating, wall construction, # of people, room usage, etc. to come up with an accurate and complete plan that addresses all of the needs in the most effective and efficient manner.

Bryan

**avaserfi** · **12-04-07, 12:09 PM**

Thanks for the detailed clarification Bryan. I guess depending on the room you could use the tapestries to hide the treatments you just might not want faced materials.

When is GIK releasing its better looking line?

**jr1414** · **12-04-07, 12:25 PM**

Thanks guys. I'm very interested to see your company's panels Bryan, as my wife is not a fan of tapestries. I'm also considering making my own, but I'm not sure if I really want to get into it.

**Ethan Winer** · **12-04-07, 01:54 PM**

Andrew,

Quote:

avaserfi wrote:

For some good looking panels that you can purchase I would recommend Ready Acoustics.

I have to object to a recommendation of those guys for many reasons. First, the two guys who run that company are dishonest and unethical. See my Fraud Report.

But it's worse than that. The idea for "nice metal frames" was ripped off directly from my company RealTraps. Ironically, this was after bashing RealTraps for two years for our use of metal frames. They also ripped off the design of another acoustics vendor, then posted it as a video on YouTube and took credit for it as their own design.

Wait, it gets worse still. My Fraud Report linked above documents two times Joel DuBay took pot shots at me in forums while pretending to be an unbiased bystander hiding behind a phony user name. He has since done that twice more that I can prove, and I expect to have proof of yet more such shenanigans soon.

I try hard to get along with everyone in this business, but those guys are bad news. Please don't recommend them. Thanks.

Now, back to the subject at hand - acoustic treatment and WAF. With acoustic treatment you can have effective, affordable, or attractive. Pick any two. :raped:

It's that simple. If you want good treatment, which is of necessity large, then you have to either accept a bunch of big panels in your room or build frames with stretched fabric etc to hide them. It's not the look of each panel as much as needing a fair number of them to get the job done.

--Ethan

**bpape** · **12-04-07, 02:47 PM**

Not sure exactly when they'll be released. We're still doing some manufacturing prototyping to get the best process/assembly to keep the price down as much as possible.

When considering treatments in a room, things like unusual orientation (4 2x2 panels hung as a diamond with a space between them for example), arranging in patterns so they don't look like a bunch of obelisks, etc. are ways of providing visual interest and making them part of the decor instead of an eyesore detracting from it.

Bryan

**thewire** · **12-06-07, 03:51 PM**

Quote:

avaserfi wrote:

I was under the impression membranes increased absorption for lower frequencies due to the vibrations that occur when they hit the membrane. This is why a faced material is chosen for the specified application as the thick wool will take care of the higher frequencies allowing for the membraned fiberglass to only need to absorb the lower frequencies.

The size would need to be greatly larger for this to make a difference that is comparable. The space behind the panel is what is most critical in lower frequencies. This works but only if they are not huge, in which case the Mrs will not need to approve something even larger on the wall.

**bpape** · **12-06-07, 04:44 PM**

The other thing that changes the center frequency of a membrane type absorber is the mass of the membrane itself. This is more critical when you have a membrane that is stretched tight over a sealed cavity and the absorbtion is not in contact with the membrane. But, then we have an absorber that's only really effective over a couple of octaves - which is sometimes preferable in larger room implementations.

Bryan

**John N** · **12-06-07, 08:42 PM**

Quote:

bpape wrote:

Not sure exactly when they'll be released. We're still doing some manufacturing prototyping to get the best process/assembly to keep the price down as much as possible.

When considering treatments in a room, things like unusual orientation (4 2x2 panels hung as a diamond with a space between them for example), arranging in patterns so they don't look like a bunch of obelisks, etc. are ways of providing visual interest and making them part of the decor instead of an eyesore detracting from it.

Bryan

Are you coming out with 2x2 panels ? (standard not $ustom)

Will they have a bevel edge?

**John N** · **12-07-07, 09:51 PM**

**bpape** · **12-08-07, 07:05 AM**

Probably not and probably not - sorry.

2'x2' isn't cost effective - sorry. While the materials are slightly less, the labor is the same to make a 2x2 as it is a 2x4. Bevelled edges take additional time to do the bevel itself and also make wrapping the cloth neatly more difficult (and again, take more time).

By the time you get done with all of this, the 2x2 ends up costing us more than the 2x4 to make.

Now, without the bevel, and if someone wanted to order 20 or so of them that we could set up the jigs and go for a while, we might be able to work something out. At this level of disussion, it should really go offline though.

Bryan

**cruzmisl** · **12-08-07, 08:50 AM**

Here is a picture of the back of my room. The wife thinks it looks good. She said it's a lot better than she was expecting. For the money/work involved in making your own I felt it best just to buy them. They are built perfectly, the fabric is affixed perfectly with no wrinkles and they perform as advertised. I went with GIK and couldn't be happier. I have another 5 panels on the front wall. I can post a pic of that too if you like. When people come over they always comment on how good they look.

**Ryan-T** · **12-08-07, 09:14 AM**

Please post a front pic so I can show my wife.

Never mind I found your thread.

**bpape** · **12-08-07, 11:41 AM**

A little teaser pic of one of one of our new product prototypes

GIK 242 Elite

Solid maple frame
Choice of stain colors
GOM cloth standard
Same great performance

Stand optional

**cruzmisl** · **12-08-07, 12:01 PM**

Here you go.....good luck

**John N** · **12-09-07, 05:45 AM**

Quote:

bpape wrote:

Probably not and probably not - sorry.

2'x2' isn't cost effective - sorry. While the materials are slightly less, the labor is the same to make a 2x2 as it is a 2x4. Bevelled edges take additional time to do the bevel itself and also make wrapping the cloth neatly more difficult (and again, take more time).

By the time you get done with all of this, the 2x2 ends up costing us more than the 2x4 to make.

Now, without the bevel, and if someone wanted to order 20 or so of them that we could set up the jigs and go for a while, we might be able to work something out. At this level of disussion, it should really go offline though.

Bryan

Thanks

**jr1414** · **12-11-07, 09:00 AM**

cruzmisl, that's really nice looking stuff there. I actually just got some samples from Guilford of Maine and from Acoustice Solutions (Soundsuede) to check out some fabric options. I will probably have a solution that looks very similar to yours, and the wife just saw the pics ond loves them!!! (YES!!!!)

I will say that I was very dissapointed with the Soundsuede material, seemed more like thin fleece than a suede texture. It may work for some, but they don't look like suede at all to me. I've found some nice samples of G.O.M. fabrics, have to leave them on the wall a few days until the wife decides what she really likes.

**bpape** · **12-11-07, 09:07 AM**

Unfortunately, you're right about the suede. That's why we don't really offer it. Guilford has a ton of options in many different styles (though they vary wildly in price per yard).

Bryan

**cruzmisl** · **12-11-07, 09:11 AM**

Glad I could help.

**Kevin_Wadsworth** · **12-11-07, 12:28 PM**

Quote:

bpape wrote:

Also, for reflection panels, remember that male vocals can extend as low as 200Hz.

Just a minor correction here (I'm sure Bryan knows this). I sing Baritone and can get down to ~93 Hz. A real bass can get down another 20-30 hz from there.

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