Audyssey MultEQ Discussion Thread

**Ayreonaut** · **05-29-08, 02:02 PM**

Hey Folks,

I bought a Denon AVR-888 a few months ago. Being too lazy to drag the PC into the living room to do measurements yet again, I have not measured the effects of Audyssey MultEQ in my system, but I have formed an opinion. I like it. I like it a lot.

I set my BFD to tame only the peaks in an average response of my listening positions. I added a house curve. It sounded good. Then I bypassed the BFD and let Audyssey MultEQ do its thing. It sounded decent, but maybe not as good as my BFD effort alone. Finally, I adjusted my BFD to tame the peaks, but left a flat response, and I let Audyssey do its thing on top of that. The combination of the two sounds terrific. I highly recommend this approach, if you have both a BFD and Audyssey.

It seems that Audyssey MultEQ can use a little help. It's performance is fair, if you throw big room problems at it. But if you use REW and a BFD to deal with the big problems first, Audyssey MultEQ will put the finishing touches on it and the end result is beautiful. Standing on the shoulders of giants, so to speak.

Has anyone else experienced this?

**eugovector** · **05-29-08, 02:29 PM**

What would everyone's opinion be, BFD first and then let Audyssey do it's thing, or Audyssey first and then let BFD get what Audyssey doesn't?

**SierraMikeBravo** · **05-29-08, 03:41 PM**

Personally, if you use Audyssey, I wouldn't use the BFD on top of it. Basically, you are using processing on top of processing. If you have the ability to upgrade to Audyssey Pro, I would certainly do that since the increased resolution in the lower frequencies is much greater..thereby essentially eliminating the need for the BFD. If you have a seperates system, the Audyssey Sound EQ is the best way to go as it uses the full DSP. However, if you are targeting the lower frequencies only, SVS' new sub equlizing system utilizes Audyssey XT, and it uses much, if not all, the DSP, similar to the Sound EQ except it is just for the lower frequencies. Now, this is all dependent on seating and speaker placement. I always say that Audyssey helps you as much as you help it. If you find that you still peaks occurring in the lower frequencies, I would first look into placement of seating and sub. If that doesn't deal with it, look into conventional means, such as room treatments, to deal with the stragglers.

**Ayreonaut** · **05-30-08, 10:12 AM**

Quote:

SierraMikeBravo wrote:

Basically, you are using processing on top of processing.

That is absolutely true.
That's the concern that prompted me to try Audyssey MultEQ without the BFD.

But the proof is in the pudding.
Prudent EQ plus Audyssey sounds much better in my system.
So if you already have a BFD and you get Audyssey, I recommend:

Use REW to measure sub response at multiple seating locations.
Average the responses and implement EQ to attenuate the major peaks. No house curve.
Set up Audyssey MultEQ.
If your receiver calls your mains "large", change them to "small" and crossover at 80 Hz.
If you want a house curve, add it now.

Don't knock it till you try it!

As Shawn says, if you want better results than Audyssey MultEQ can deliver, you can always step up to the more advanced versions of MultEQ XT and Pro. But that is an expensive proposition. The BFD is still the best $99 tweak I know of.

**HionHiFi** · **05-30-08, 12:53 PM**

Quote:

Ayreonaut wrote:

That is absolutely true.
That's the concern that prompted me to try Audyssey MultEQ without the BFD.

But the proof is in the pudding.
Prudent EQ plus Audyssey sounds much better in my system.
So if you already have a BFD and you get Audyssey, I recommend:

Use REW to measure sub response at multiple seating locations.
Average the responses and implement EQ to attenuate the major peaks. No house curve.
Set up Audyssey MultEQ.
If your receiver calls your mains "large", change them to "small" and crossover at 80 Hz.
If you want a house curve, add it now.

Don't knock it till you try it!

Good info.

Quote:

Ayreonaut wrote:

As Shawn says, if you want better results than Audyssey MultEQ can deliver, you can always step up to the more advanced versions of MultEQ XT and Pro. But that is an expensive proposition...

I have a Denon 3808ci, which has the ability to utilize the Audyssey Pro Installer Kit. I've been reading for awhile about the BFD, and would like to implement one in my system. The problem is which one to buy and...:

Feedback Destroyer Pro FBQ2496
Pros: Supported by REW, MIDI Control, and the BFD guide, available and shipped for ~$150, no chip issues.
Cons: One preset
Feedback Destroyer Pro DSP1124P.
Pros: Great reputation,Multiple presets
Cons: Chip surgery to get MIDI, Discontinued

I like the MIDI option with the FBQ2496, but also the multiple presets with the DSP1124P. BUT, because I'd be using it in conjunction with the Audyssey system are multiple presets even needed when using the BFD the way Ayreonaut is talking about?

Quote:

Ayreonaut wrote:

The BFD is still the best $99 tweak I know of.

Isn't a proper microphone, external sound card, and REW necessary for BFD to work the way your talking about? All these things cost money. Wouldn't their cost be approaching what the Audyssey installer costs which I believe is $325.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to get the best sound out of my room with the least amount of money spent, and with a moderately integrated solution. If possible.

**SierraMikeBravo** · **05-30-08, 06:08 PM**

If you want the best system, I would go with Audyssey Pro. It depends on the installers price. Keep in mind that $150 goes stright to Audyssey and is not pocketed by the installer. Here are the pluses and minus'

1. Audyssey Pro uses a small microphone grazing area (smaller the ECM 8000). This is actually essential to get truely accurate results when analyzing the room. The smaller the grazing area the better. This is why the RS meter is absolutely useless through the entire audio spectrum.

2. The microphone used in the installation kit has a calibration file specifically for that microphone. This delivers accurate results for the program to analyze.

3. Audyssey XT uses microphones (supplied with unit) that are mass calibrated, and thus may be accurate or not entirely. You just don't know.

4. If you go the EMC8000 route, it will cost you some change for the equipment. Depending on the sound card you purchase. Decent ones cost around $150-200. The microphone is around $60, and the cable is around $25 or so...not including mic stand. Now you are looking at around $250-350 for a microphone setup. Plus the additional $99 for the feedback destroyer. Liberally, you've spent around $500, and probably won't get as good of a result as you would with Audyssey Pro with an experienced installer. In addition, you have to know what you are looking at when you take readings. Some of the peaks and nulls may be associated with room modes or SBIR, or even background noise. You need to able to recognize what is what to deal with the problem.

I will tell you, as a person who uses Pro, the differences I heard are night and day between Audyssey Pro and Audyssey XT. Keep in mind, your room layout is absolutely essential to get the best results, and the use of conventional treaments may still be needed. This is where Audyssey Pro benefits as well, since it shows you the before and after graphs for each channel in the report you receive from your installer. An experienced Audyssey installer would also be ideally HAA certified, so he/she can recognize and hear additional steps that may be needed.

Audyssey is not the magic bullet. It will NOT fix ALL problems. Proper uderstanding of room acoustics is still an essential part of an incredible listening experience. However, in my opinion, upgrading to Audyssey Pro is the best investment you can make at a reasonable price. After using it, I am a believer!

**Ayreonaut** · **06-02-08, 01:38 PM**

If you have Audyssey Pro capability, by all means, take full advantage of it. The installers kit costs $325, which leaves you to do the work yourself. I'm not sure what it costs to have it professionally done. (But I would rather have the equipment and tweak it myself to my heart's content.)

**eugovector** · **06-02-08, 01:47 PM**

Quote:

Ayreonaut wrote:

If you have Audyssey Pro capability, by all means, take full advantage of it. The installers kit costs $325, which leaves you to do the work yourself. I'm not sure what it costs to have it professionally done. (But I would rather have the equipment and tweak it myself to my heart's content.)

Now, I've heard that you also have to attend a seminar on how to use it. Is that true?

**Ayreonaut** · **06-02-08, 03:27 PM**

I think that is only true if you want to become an Audyssey certified installer.

**SierraMikeBravo** · **06-02-08, 04:24 PM**

Incorrect,

You are allowed to purchase the equipment ONLY if there is not a certified installer near you. Only about 20 units have actually been sold to "customers". Audyssey will first check to see if there is an installer near you, if there is not, then you may be allowed to purchase the equipment. Yes, it does cost $325 plus an additional $150 for the licensing fee plus $25 to ship it. Therefore, it will cost you $500 if you are allowed to purchase it. If there is an installer near you, you will not be allowed to purchase the installer kit. However, it comes down to this as well. Do you want someone who knows what they are doing, or do you want to mess with upgrades to your DSP blindly. Again, Audyssey works best if you have a proper room setup, and a good installer will make the necessary changes to optimize the Audyssey setup. Sometimes, it is just worth paying a knowledgeable person to do it right the first time.

**Ayreonaut** · **06-02-08, 04:54 PM**

Wow, thanks for the info. I guess I got the wrong impression from the Audioholics review.

Quote:

SierraMikeBravo wrote:

Sometimes, it is just worth paying a knowledgeable person to do it right the first time.

Sure. But I would be loathe to pay for it a second time. Or a third.
Every time you make a change to your audio chain you would be looking at paying that fee again.

**eugovector** · **06-02-08, 05:05 PM**

Quote:

Ayreonaut wrote:

But I would be loathe to pay for it a second time. Or a third.
Every time you make a change to your audio chain you would be looking at paying that fee again.

Exactly my concern. I don't want to add a $300 Audyssey fee (is it $300) every time I get new speakers, hand wall treatments, or move my couch.

**SierraMikeBravo** · **06-02-08, 10:31 PM**

Hey guys,

That is why I suggested an audio pro to begin with. Once the room is properly setup, you shouldn't have to change anything. It isn't always the case, but constantly "upgrading" is often a sign that the room isn't in proper alignment. Audyssey should be used as the "finishing touch" on timing alignment and problem frequencies inherent to the room's dimensions. Speaker and seating placement should be used to deal with major modal problems from the beginning. Once you have the "best" arrangement your room design will allow, then you let Audyssey work the rest of the existing problems that you were unable to fix by design. This is basically the principle that ALL equalizers should be incorporated into a system. There are other things that could also be done to improve sound, but constantly upgrading speakers shouldn't be one of them unless the speakers were of poor design to begin with. That is another reason to hire a seasoned vet as they will be able to test your speakers for poor response prior to audyssey install. All you really should be doing is sitting back and enjoy the show!

**HionHiFi** · **06-03-08, 03:23 AM**

Quote:

eugovector wrote:

Exactly my concern. I don't want to add a $300 Audyssey fee (is it $300) every time I get new speakers, hand wall treatments, or move my couch.

So each time I change something in my system, I have to pay Audessey a fee to use software, and hardware I've already purchased once?

**eugovector** · **06-03-08, 07:47 AM**

Quote:

SierraMikeBravo wrote:

Hey guys,

That is why I suggested an audio pro to begin with. Once the room is properly setup, you shouldn't have to change anything.

I think this assumes a lot. It assumes that you will have the time and money to do everything you want to do in the first place, and that your tastes/desires will never change. In my opinion, this happens about 1% of the time. The rest of us start with the speakers that we can afford, and something not completely over the top like a $1500 Integra Pre/Pro. We want the best sound we are currently capable of, so we pay for the Audyssey calibration.

Then we get money for a front projection system which increases the screen size tremendously. Move couch, add second row, more Audyssey.

Econ stimulus check comes in...new surround speakers, more Audyssey.

Scratch off nets $5k...build a bar in the back, more Audyssey.

Next job pays double next state over, have to move, more Audyssey.

7.1 material become a reality, add rear channels, more Audyssey.

Go to conference, hear JBL Everests, sell kidney, more Audyssey.

If you have the kind of money to do things right the first time, including hiring a consultant, then you don't need to worry. You can afford multiple Audyssey cals. For the rest of us, we'll be changing and upgrading as money permits, and money will go a lot further if we don't have to pay $300 each time for a cal.

**Kal Rubinson** · **06-03-08, 09:17 AM**

Quote:

intelonetwo wrote:

So each time I change something in my system, I have to pay Audessey a fee to use software, and hardware I've already purchased once?

No. First, Audyssey gets a one-time $150 fee for the license to use Pro with a particular device. Generally, if you have an installer do the work, this is wrapped in his fees but he hangs on to the license.

Second, any subsequent work done by the installer due to changes in the system/room are based on a negotiation between you and the installer. Since the license has already been bought, the cost of this work should be less.

Kal

**HionHiFi** · **06-03-08, 12:16 PM**

Quote:

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Second, any subsequent work done by the installer due to changes in the system/room are based on a negotiation between you and the installer. Since the license has already been bought, the cost of this work should be less.

Kal

What if I bought the installer kit from the dealer? I would then own the license and could make the modifications to my system til my hearts content.

**eugovector** · **06-03-08, 12:20 PM**

Quote:

intelonetwo wrote:

What if I bought the installer kit from the dealer? I would then own the license and could make the modifications to my system til my hearts content.

That's what I'm saying should be able to be done. Anyone know if Audyssey is on-board with this approach?

**HionHiFi** · **06-03-08, 12:25 PM**

Quote:

eugovector wrote:

That's what I'm saying should be able to be done. Anyone know if Audyssey is on-board with this approach?

As I understand it from posts around the internet and here. If you have an installer in your area, Audyssey will not sell you an installer kit.

The only way you could obtain an installer kit with license would be if you found a dealer of Audyssey receivers, etc, etc, and ordered the kit from them. They may or may not let you have the license along with the kit. Hoping to pull some money from you at a later point in life for setup of the system.

**SierraMikeBravo** · **06-03-08, 12:45 PM**

Well, I am sure you could possibly work that with the installer...however, I doubt it as that is lost revenue to the installer. The dealer/installer also has to be a dealer/installer for Audyssey. If you are that worried about "spending" the money each time you want to "upgrade" your system, then I suggest purchasing a Sencore SP295, multiplexer and digital audio generator in order to obtain the same results anytime you wish!

Of course, that is only a measily $5000+ of your money. I am kidding somewhat, but seriosuly, that is what it comes close to in order to obtain the same or better results that Audyssey Pro or the Sound EQ. Anytime you upgraded your system anyway, you are going to have to go through the pain of reanalyzing the room. And honestly, $1500 for a pre/pro now days is one of a deal considering what the Onkyo/Integra does for you. Most pre/pro easily exceed the $2000 mark and don't give you half of what the Integra/Onkyo does.

As far as Audyssey being on board with the approach, I don't think they care. That is something between you and the dealer/installer. If the installer wants to sell you a kit where he makes no money in the deal and you bothering him on a weekly basis asking how to do this, then by all means, approach him with it. If you are willing to pay more than what the cost of the kit is plus shipping, then he/she might agree. You never know.

**HionHiFi** · **06-03-08, 12:52 PM**

As I stated earlier, I already have a receiver which is Audyssey pro capable. No problem there.

Not doubting the merits, or proper setup, and giving so call installers a job. However, I'm versed enough in HT to do the job myself. I'd like control of my options especially after I've paid money for it. Seems weird to me that in HT you have to pay money for something then every time you want to use it you have to pay again.

**SierraMikeBravo** · **06-03-08, 01:39 PM**

Not really. I don't mean to keep arguing for installers, but if you had, say an acoustics person do the design and analysis for you in the beginning (without Audyssey), you would have to have them do it again even if you moved the couch for example. It works the same in most businesses. If someone built something for you, and you decided to change it in 6 months, would you expect someone to change it for free? Or, if you decided to built it yourself and wanted to change it, would you expect to get additional materials for free? You have to look at it this way, no one has forced you to change anything. You have made the choice to upgrade. Audyssey worked before you decided to change something. Just factor in the Audyssey change as part of the upgrade. We are not really talking that much considering how much you are likely spending on the upgrade.

I have found the more I think I know, the more I find out I don't know...especially when it comes to acoustics. There are so many variables that affect sound. I now usually say that you don't need a degree in rocket science in order to understand acoustics, but it helps.

Personally, the only thing I would seriously suggest for a rerun of the Audyssey Pro program is if you change out your speakers. Amplifiers maybe if you are significantly increasing the wattage.

**eugovector** · **06-03-08, 02:28 PM**

I don' have anything against installers, I think they are great people who have a great job. However, if I was told that I couldn't buy a hammer unless I was a carpenter, or a dozen eggs unless I was a baker, I'd be upset.

If there's one thing I've learned from the internet, it's that people want to try new things, to learn, and they'll find a way to do it without your help if they need to.

I applaud Audyssey for supporting their installers and standing by them for keeping their system exclusive, but when I get my Integra, I want to set it myself if for nothing else than the experience and learning. If that means I have to become an installer, I will. If that means that I wait for someone to document how I take a third party mic, software, and documentation and do it myself, I'll do that too. I bought the hardware, I'll buy the license, and I'll do what I want with it.

I'm inthe process of arranging an interview with some folks from Audyssey. If/when that materializes, I'll explore this situation thoroughly with them.

**Kal Rubinson** · **06-03-08, 03:31 PM**

Quote:

SierraMikeBravo wrote:

I have found the more I think I know, the more I find out I don't know...especially when it comes to acoustics. There are so many variables that affect sound. I now usually say that you don't need a degree in rocket science in order to understand acoustics, but it helps.

Ain't that the truth! There's always more to know.

Quote:

Personally, the only thing I would seriously suggest for a rerun of the Audyssey Pro program is if you change out your speakers. Amplifiers maybe if you are significantly increasing the wattage.

Well, you would rerun it if you moved the speakers or listening position, if you replaced substantial furniture (couches, etc.), changed acoustic treatments (or drapes)....... If I swapped amps, I 'd only worry about the levels and then mostly out of concern for sensitivity, not power.

**Kal Rubinson** · **06-03-08, 03:34 PM**

Quote:

intelonetwo wrote:

As I understand it from posts around the internet and here. If you have an installer in your area, Audyssey will not sell you an installer kit.

Good thing I got mine before there were ANY Audyssey installers anywhere.

Kal

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