Audyssey MultEQ Discussion Thread

[tonyvdb]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Known bug? Under what circumstances?

Its not really a "bug" but Audyssey MultEQ is known to set the level of the subwoofer to low in alot of cases.

[cavchameleon]

Hi Tony,

I think that many feel the sub levels are too low with Audyssey because they are used to having the subs a bit hot. Audyssey sets the level very flat and if one is use to even a 2db hot sub, it will sound too low. I though this also until I got used to it and could hear more detail (esp with bass guitar and lower registers of piano).

Ray

[Kal Rubinson]

tonyvdb wrote:

Its not really a "bug" but Audyssey MultEQ is known to set the level of the subwoofer to low in alot of cases.

Too low for the preferences of some users but the levels it sets are accurate and correct. Personal taste as well as long-term adaptation to un-flat bass might make some want more.

[ggallaway]

I do have an spl meter, should I use the built in test tones to set the level or try and use REW? what should be the steps or if you could point me to a thread that goes into this in some detail that would be great!

[Kal Rubinson]

ggallaway wrote:

I do have an spl meter, should I use the built in test tones to set the level or try and use REW? what should be the steps or if you could point me to a thread that goes into this in some detail that would be great!

If you are using Audyssey (assumed in this thread), there is no need for any external technology to set the level. Now, you can use REW to check/see what it is doing but, if you want more bass, just set it by ear.

[Lordoftherings]

You can always use the Radio Shack SPL Meter for verification purpose, but be aware that it is not accurate. Still, it helps to put you in the ball park, and in particular for more than one sub.
After using the RS meter, just deduct 1.5 to 2db from the subwoofer level, for a fair value.
Here's a quick look at what you should deduct from some specific frequencies:
20hz -> deduct 7.5db
25hz -> deduct 5db
31.5hz -> deduct 3db *
40hz -> deduct 2.5db *
50hz -> deduct 1.5db *
63hz -> deduct 1.5db *
80hz -> deduct 1.5db *
100hz -> deduct 2db

Bob

[Kal Rubinson]

Lordoftherings wrote:

You can always use the Radio Shack SPL Meter for verification purpose, but be aware that it is not accurate.

If it ain't accurate, what verification is it?

[Lordoftherings]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

If it ain't accurate, what verification is it?

Well, you have a better suggestion to balance my three subs?

Bob

[Kal Rubinson]

Lordoftherings wrote:

Well, you have a better suggestion to balance my three subs?
Bob

Well, first off, I had no idea that this is the use you were referring to. The preceding posts were about bass levels in Audyssey.
Second, it is an OK way for gross level settings.

[Lordoftherings]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Well, first off, I had no idea that this is the use you were referring to. The preceding posts were about bass levels in Audyssey.
Second, it is an OK way for gross level settings.

LOL, Kal, I cannot afford better equipment, so I'll stick with gross.

And that's what I was talking about (bass levels from my Onkyo TX-SR876).

You have 3 subs in your setup Kal?
From your DTC-9.8, with Audyssey MultEQ Pro v3, anything else you're using to calibrate the bass level?

* By the way Kal, I super enjoyed "Music In The Round", every month. I learned some good stuff in there from your objective reviews and impressions.

Bob

[Kal Rubinson]

Lordoftherings wrote:

LOL, Kal, I cannot afford better equipment, so I'll stick with gross.

And that's what I was talking about (bass levels from my Onkyo TX-SR876).

You have 3 subs in your setup Kal?

Nope. I have only the jl f113 in one system but the other currently has a Paradigm Servo-15 and the new Sub-15.

From your DTC-9.8, with Audyssey MultEQ Pro v3, anything else you're using to calibrate the bass level?

REW, TEF, XTZ, TrueRTA.............................

* By the way Kal, I super enjoyed "Music In The Round", every month. I learned some good stuff in there from your objective reviews and impressions.

Bob

Thanks. It is nice to hear that.

[Lordoftherings]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

REW, TEF, XTZ, TrueRTA..............................

Here you go Kal, you have all the tools at your disposition; that makes it an excellent way for "net" level settings.

Me, I just have to stick with my OK way for "gross" ones.
Just kidding.

Bob

[Lordoftherings]

Hello Mr. Rubinson (Kal).

Could you please tell me what these stand for?

1. REW
2. TEF (or is it ETF?)
3. XTZ
4. TrueRTA
5. ............

Thank you,

Bob

[Kal Rubinson]

Lordoftherings wrote:

Hello Mr. Rubinson (Kal).

Could you please tell me what these stand for?

1. REW = Room EQ Wizard http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

2. TEF (or is it ETF?) TEF is a trademark of Goldline http://www.gold-line.com/tef/tef.htm
(I also have used ETF but it has been replaced by R+D and I have not gotten around to learning it. http://www.etfacoustic.com/)

3. XTZ = XTZ Room Analyzer http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allman...kt=41&eng=true

4. TrueRTA = TrueRTA http://www.trueaudio.com/

5. ............ = ?????

Thank you,

Bob

Howzat? (All from Google)

[cavchameleon]

Kal,

Thanks a lot for the links. I've used REW and TrueRTA. I remember seeing the fancy graphs you have in your review (BTW, I always look forward to your section in Stereophile - one of the best parts of the publication!!!), now I want XTZ also. It seems very reasonably priced.

Thanks!
Ray

[Lordoftherings]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Howzat? (All from Google)

Wow! This is excellent Kal. Thank you very much sir.

* Now; what "Howzat" stands for? Anything to do with the wife sneeking in, behind your affairs?

Bob

[warpdrive]

I know the RS meter is off by a few dB in the lower registers but even with that considered, I used test tones from the receiver itself and I found that Odyssey was conservative with my bass level so I still bumped it up 3dB after the calibration and then I ran REW, and it was still flat. Unless you have dynamic EQ, I think running it hot by a couple of dB is preferable anyway due to loudness curves of your ear.

I like Audyssey in general, it does a way better job IME than YPAO or the others, but you shouldn't be scared to modify the resulting settings to your liking. I didn't like the fact that it set my speakers to large (which I changed), and also my Onkyo 875 didn't have user selectable target curves (my next receiver will have a flat setting....cough Denon cough)

[Kal Rubinson]

warpdrive wrote:

I know the RS meter is off by a few dB in the lower registers but even with that considered, I used test tones from the receiver itself and I found that Odyssey was conservative with my bass level so I still bumped it up 3dB after the calibration and then I ran REW, and it was still flat. Unless you have dynamic EQ, I think running it hot by a couple of dB is preferable anyway due to loudness curves of your ear.

Again. There's no reason to think that the RW meter with pink noise at a random position is in any way more accurate than Audyssey for this but, again, if you prefer more bass, you are certainly entitled to have it your way.

I like Audyssey in general, it does a way better job IME than YPAO or the others, but you shouldn't be scared to modify the resulting settings to your liking. I didn't like the fact that it set my speakers to large (which I changed), and also my Onkyo 875 didn't have user selectable target curves (my next receiver will have a flat setting....cough Denon cough)

Again, again. Audyssey does not select large/small; that is done by the AVR manufacturer.

[Kal Rubinson]

Lordoftherings wrote:

* Now; what "Howzat" stands for?

Phonetic spelling of "How is that?"

[warpdrive]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Again. There's no reason to think that the RW meter with pink noise at a random position is in any way more accurate than Audyssey for this but, again, if you prefer more bass, you are certainly entitled to have it your way.

Again, again. Audyssey does not select large/small; that is done by the AVR manufacturer.

I did check it with REW later and I found that it was flatter in the 40-60 range after I bumped it up
Posted via Mobile Device

[Kal Rubinson]

warpdrive wrote:

I did check it with REW later and I found that it was flatter in the 40-60 range after I bumped it up
Posted via Mobile Device

I am surprised since I have almost always found agreement between REW and Audyssey, if adequate care is taken with mic placement.

[warpdrive]

It seems to flatten the 60-100 range pretty well but I found the 40-60 pretty droopy, so bumping up the level by 3dB helped add back some impact I thought was missing.

[Lordoftherings]

warpdrive wrote:

I know the RS meter is off by a few dB in the lower registers but even with that considered, I used test tones from the receiver itself and I found that Odyssey was conservative with my bass level so I still bumped it up 3dB after the calibration and then I ran REW, and it was still flat. Unless you have dynamic EQ, I think running it hot by a couple of dB is preferable anyway due to loudness curves of your ear.

I like Audyssey in general, it does a way better job IME than YPAO or the others, but you shouldn't be scared to modify the resulting settings to your liking. I didn't like the fact that it set my speakers to large (which I changed), and also my Onkyo 875 didn't have user selectable target curves (my next receiver will have a flat setting....cough Denon cough)

Hi Warpdrive,

You're right, the RS meter is off, not only in the lower registers by as much as 20db at 10hz!
And still a big 7.5db off at 20hz! And even at 25hz, it's still off by 5db.
But it is also off in the high registers; at 4khz, 5khz, 6.3khz and 8khz, it is still off by 2db.
So, the Radio Shack SPL Meter is not totally "linear". But you knew that.
* By the way, Audyssey with an A, not an O (on your first paragraph only).

But the good thing about it, is that when you know the values from a chart, you can compensate to correct them. Below is the link on the Correction Values for the RS SPL Meter:
@ http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/rsmeter.html

Here's another link, on the RS SPL meter, pubished by SVS (The Bass Authority) from their frequently asked questions (FAQ):
@ http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm#meter

And their Compensation Chart (on the RS SPL Meter), only for the low frequencies (from 10hz to 125hz):
@ http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs-rscomp.cfm

Now, I agree with you, that by adding a couple dbs or so, does in fact seems to restore properly and balance the bass with the rest of the system. It just sounds right to my ears too (for Movies).
But for Music only listening in 2-channel stereo, I deduct about one decibel or two. Again, it just seems to blend better with my two front mains. I guess it all depends of your room's acoustics, your subwoofer capability, your two main front speakers' qualities, your subwoofer's and main speaker's positions, and your own set of ears.

Audyssey is only a tool, but a good one to help you with some room acoustic issues.
But it certainly is not perfect, what is?
* By the way, your Onkyo TX-SR875 does have a Flat Audyssey (target curve) setting, but only when in THX Cinema mode.
It is automatically engaged when you select the THX Cinema audio mode.
** And it's very true what Kal is saying; Audyssey DOES NOT select your speakers as Large or Small, your Onkyo receiver DOES.
So many people are still confused by that, which is sad. There is a lack of clear information on this, and from Audyssey, and from the manufacturers. I don't blame one, I blame both.

And I agree with you, as I myself, at the end, always fine tune the results by ears, so they sound pleasant to my ears. I trust no one but God. And God is wherever you want him to be.

But there is one guy that I also trust somehow (after my ears and God, of course); and it is Kal Rubinson, because of it's vast experience with several tools for analysing and measuring, which he knows that are best at what they do.
Kal is probably one of the most knowledgeable person on various audio products and their interaction in our daily lifes. That's the benefit from years of audio experience, great dedication, "good spirit" man, and a passion for sound accuracy.
And we all know, that he's been writing about audio for as long as there are cars in our streets (well, almost).

Just my simple thoughts on the subject.

Regards,

Bob

[Lordoftherings]

Kal Rubinson wrote:

Phonetic spelling of "How is that?"

Thanks again Kal; without you, I don't know what I would do.

Bob

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Lordoftherings wrote:

Hi Warpdrive,

You're right, the RS meter is off, not only in the lower registers by as much as 20db at 10hz!
And still a big 7.5db off at 20hz! And even at 25hz, it's still off by 5db.
But it is also off in the high registers; at 4khz, 5khz, 6.3khz and 8khz, it is still off by 2db.

The Radio Shack meter isn’t really “off;” it tracks the C-weighting scale, like it's supposed to. The problem is that we are often using it for something it wasn’t really designed for – determining frequency response rather than sound pressure levels.

C-Weighting Curve

Regards,
Wayne