AVR as pre/pro - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #31 of 39 Old 04-16-10, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

Thanks guys, I will be purchasing the Onkyo 1007 and be done with it. Then looking to upgrade loudspeakers. I have several to consider and will be throwing these suggestions out to you for advice. Thanks again for all your feedback.
Most sincerely, Jeff
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post #32 of 39 Old 04-16-10, 11:50 PM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

tonyvdb wrote: View Post
This depends on the movie, New action movies sound far better than they did with DD or even DTS It really depends on your system setup if your speakers and amps are up to the task the uncompressed formats do offer allot more dynamics.
I will continue to wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree; I have done multiple, almost bordering on daunting, A/B comparo's between lossy and lossless tracks of the same film -- and even went as far as to compare the lossy tracks on the DVDs vs. some lossy tracks that are available on the Blu-ray counterparts (such as with the "Pirates" films) -- and I don't hear a great deal of sonic improvement, if any.

Another thing I noticed that bothered me, and which has been confirmed by some sources, is that DTS Master Audio tracks on some titles don't sound any more dynamic or aggressive than their core DTS streams from the same disc -- my first BD player was a Panasonic DMP-BD10A which did not pass Master Audio natively nor did it decode it internally. The player stripped the core DTS signal from an MA title and played the core track back at the increased data rate. Those tracks sounded pretty neat. Now, when I got my Oppo BDP-83 player and was able to access full lossless bitstreamed Master Audio surround tracks, I didn't hear any difference between the core signal and the lossless extension version.
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post #33 of 39 Old 04-17-10, 01:23 AM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

I agree with Tony and there are differences to be had and I noticed this more when moving up the chain to more high end gear, especially with power amps and the extra dynamics that can be had from listening to the new HD codecs.
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post #34 of 39 Old 04-17-10, 10:12 AM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

I think John brings up an excellent point about having high resolution Speakers and high powered Amplifiers to get the most out of the lossless codecs.

Speakers: Martin Logan Vantage (Mains), Martin Logan Stage (Center), Martin Logan Vista (Surrounds), Martin Logan Montages (Surrounds) Hsu Research VTF-15h MK2, Martin Logan Descent i (Subwoofer)
Amplification: Aragon 8008bb, Parasound HCA-3500, Parasound HCA-2205 AT, Parasound HCA-1000a
AVR/SSP: Denon AVR-4520CI
Electronics: OPPO BDP-93
Gaming Consoles: Sony PS4, Xbox 360 S (250 gb)
Display: Panasonic TC-P65ZT60, Sony KDL-55EX500, Sony KD-34XBR910
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post #35 of 39 Old 04-17-10, 03:29 PM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

Well, then, perhaps the difference lies in stepping up to gear beyond the realm of that which my Onkyo 605 sits in; my first upgrade was speakers, in which I went from Polk R20 bookshelves to Polk RTi12's for mains, which were the company's flagship model of the RTi line previously. While this yielded some improvement in dynamics and soundstage coherency, I still do not sense drastic, Earth-shaking differences between lossy surround tracks encoded in Dolby Digital or DTS and those in the lossless varities of TrueHD and Master Audio.

Even previous Home Theater Magazine video editor Geoffrey Morrison made the same observation about the new codecs when some of them first appeared on HD-DVD discs; he claimed that the jump from the lossless audio from the lossy variants, while welcomed, was not nearly as dynamically visceral or outstanding as the jump from, say, the video differences in high def from standard.

I recently read an article by Geoffrey which he wrote in the magazine he is now editor in chief for and he still stands by that sentiment.

BTW, I noticed the reference to "HIGH RESOLUTION SPEAKERS" from the previous member's post; what exactly are "high resolution speakers"? Do we actually need these to experience the new surround codecs? Because if so, I bought the wrong ones by going with the Polk RTi12's...
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post #36 of 39 Old 04-17-10, 04:17 PM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

I can attest to the need for speaker with a very good dynamic range. I had to switch from Magnepans to DIY compression horn speakers to get the most of the lossless formats. Even my center channel speaker which are DIY Mark Audio's are going to have to be switched out with a new DIY center.


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post #37 of 39 Old 04-17-10, 06:56 PM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

Okay, speakers with "good dynamic range" is something else; but what I don't understand and probably never will is why companies like Onkyo and Polk make products that are in the somewhat "affordable" category for "enjoying" and "experiencing" the new surround codecs, but they're still not what's needed to TRULY experience these formats -- case in point: My 605 receiver. This decodes TrueHD and Master Audio, yet it doesn't fully extract the sonic benefits of the new codecs due to its probably inferior parts and D/A converters, present in more expensive AVRs and processors.

Are we to believe that the only people able to access the sonic improvements made by the lossless surround formats are those such as the member that posted above me just before who creates DIY speakers and elements? Otherwise, we need to buy the likes of Loimanchay Speakers, which cost upwards of $150K per pair in the U.S.?
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post #38 of 39 Old 04-18-10, 12:38 AM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

It's OK if you feel that there is not much improvement from the normal vanilla DD & DTS, I have heard people mention this many times but that can be down to a number of things, setup/kit and the room being the most important part, trust me there is a difference between higher resolution and lossless formats and I have been enjoying them for years via DVD-A and SACD and now thankfully Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA are giving an even better movie viewing experience
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post #39 of 39 Old 04-19-10, 01:08 AM
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Re: AVR as pre/pro

I'm in a pretty nice-sized room with little to no reflective problems (based on resonance tests) and I have what I consider to be (and some others have agreed) a bit above "the basics" needed for good surround experiences in terms of gear; still, I don't hear a "night and day" improvement over the lossy codecs we've been used to via DVD. Of course, with multi-million-dollar setups, the evidence would probably be more than overwhelming, but that's not what most enthusiasts are running. I cannot believe, to this day, that you need to invest in $200K speakers in order to hear distinct differences between the formats/codecs.

I'm still trying to figure out what "High Resolution speakers" are though...
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