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Need ideas for a receiver upgrade, please!

5K views 46 replies 12 participants last post by  dane 
#1 ·
I posted this over at av123 but know some of you guys don't go there anymore...
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Long story short-- My current receiver does not have discrete analog inputs, nor does it decode DTS. So all my hopes and dreams to enjoy an upgrade to bluray have been shot-- at least for any DTS-based bluray discs such as The Princess Bride (and likely countless others). So, now I dunno WHAT to do .. I may just have to postpone the bluray upgrade for a few years until I can do that AND a receiver upgrade. I may just try and convince my wife that it's worth digging into savings. But I don't want a "cheapy" upgrade. I have Marantz receiver now.. a bit higher cost, but I've been a Marantz fan for many years. I would love to move to separates, but that would likely cost more..

So I let the floodgates open... I am all ears...

And no, I have no budget at this point. (hahaha, that does NOT mean "cost no object") Just looking for ideas...

a bit deflated now,
..dane
 
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#28 ·
When I get that way, I find that it's best to step back and try to identify what options you have found that are actually practical, then write them down. The process of doing that may help clear things up.
indeed.. and I've spend too much time the past two days on this problem...

options to-date, listed in increasing complication:

  • stick with dvd for now (oppo 970)
  • keep old receiver; DTS-based bluray discs must be listened to in stereo
  • get new receiver and use only dts/dd "core" track via coax/toslink; HDMI to TV only (solves all problems, but does not take advantage of highest quality audio from bluray)
  • get new receiver, route HDMI through recevier to TV (requires receiver to be on, or a receiver with standby-mode HDMI passthrough)
  • get new receiver, route HDMI to TV and analog audio from BDP to receiver (solves some problems but creates a new one; no processing/bass management/etc is done by receiver of discrete multichannel inputs)
 
#30 ·
The new Pioneer VSX-1020-K look pretty interesting for an AVR and is in your price range. I think trying to rig an amp, out board processor, HDMI switch, et al together, while an interesting intellectual enterprise, will ultimately yield worse to no better sound while adding a boat load of complications that can potentially go awry. Simple can be beautiful.
 
#31 ·
The new Pioneer VSX-1020-K look pretty interesting for an AVR and is in your price range. I think trying to rig an amp, out board processor, HDMI switch, et al together, while an interesting intellectual enterprise, will ultimately yield worse to no better sound while adding a boat load of complications that can potentially go awry. Simple can be beautiful.
Agreed... All I stinkin' want is to add high quality audio support.. Unfortunately that requires HDMI. And unfortunately I've already got a nice HDMI video approach in place. I don't WANT the AVR to have to be on all the time.. it's not necessary as 80% of our viewing right now is just Tivo stuff..

Now, if the AVR has to be on just for movie-time, then maybe that's just going to have to be an acceptable compromise and I'll continue my thinking towards a Marantz 5003. The existing system (tivo, game systems, etc) will still function just fine without the AVR.

I did find a decent price on a refurbished Denon AVR-1910 that offers a few more features though.. (including passthrough when in standby) but it doesn't have pre-ins OR pre-outs, so it's somewhat limiting. Though for such a good refurb price, may be worth it.

I just don't know how the denon will sound compared to the marantz...

..dane
 
#33 ·
hahaha.. we have a pretty fancy setup in our house. :) everything auto-switches (just turn on the player or one of the many game systems, and video just automagically appears on the screen). And everything also can be run through simply the TV speakers. Karen and I don't want to have to fiddle with a bunch of gadgets just to put on My Little Pony on DVD. That means the audio from the player goes to both the TV and the receiver. When we watch a movie with the receiver, we just mute the TV.

However, it seems none of the Marantz support HDMI passthrough in off/standby mode. :( I'd like to stick with a Marantz of some sort, but that lacking feature is a wee bit frustrating.
Ah, I get it. I solved that issue with a Harmony One. My wife doesn't have any idea what scene is set to what input or output on the receiver, or what I've named them, or how any of it is connected, and she doesn't want to. She just presses "Watch TV" or "Watch a Movie" and it springs to life.

Frankly, my TV's built-in speakers are particularly heinous, and I don't ever want to hear them again, so this works out well for me too. I can imagine I'd walk into the living room and see that she's watching something already, and I suggest I turn down the TV and turn on the HT system. Of course without the harmony we would have to use 5 remotes in total for the living room electronics, making the process of turning on the HT system an added complexity which she would not abide on most days. She inevitably would not want to have her contented watching interrupted for me to perform said task, no matter how much I tried to convince her that I couldn't possibly concentrate on the show over the sound of awful. *shudders*
 
#34 ·
Too bad you can't take the amp board out of your existing receiver and turn it into a power amp. Well, I guess that is one of the main benefits of separates...
I know, it really becomes a huge mess. It would be so nice if the Oppo had two HDMI outputs with independent decoders... That of course would cost more, but being able to spit out 2ch downmix with video to the TV and 5.1ch LPCM to the receiver would really make things easier (for my setup).

I might just go ahead with the bdp-80 and use optical output (core audio) for now. I just can't decode DTS in my receiver. Too bad it can't spit out bitrate-limited lpcm over optical/coax. Then I could still get 5.1 over optical regardless of the encoding..

Ah, I get it. I solved that issue with a Harmony One. My wife doesn't have any idea what scene is set to what input or output on the receiver, or what I've named them, or how any of it is connected, and she doesn't want to. She just presses "Watch TV" or "Watch a Movie" and it springs to life.
I've heard good things about the Harmony... I just don't particularly want all the hifi equipment on just to watch sesame street, y'know? Much less on all the time... uggg, I'm rambling again. sorry.

There are options to consider, including selling the vp30 and getting a higher grade Denon that also includes the VRS, and truly route everything through it. In some ways it would simplify things, and in other ways I think it would worse. Or looking into the DVDO edge which has two hdmi outputs. Only I don't know who negotiates audio. If the second output is "not on" and it negotiates with the primary output, and negotiates with the second output when it's on, then I'm in sweet city and there's my ticket to ride. Need to call DVDO and ask a few questions..

cheers,
..dane
 
#35 ·
I know, it really becomes a huge mess. It would be so nice if the Oppo had two HDMI outputs with independent decoders... That of course would cost more, but being able to spit out 2ch downmix with video to the TV and 5.1ch LPCM to the receiver would really make things easier (for my setup).
You could always leave your existing DVD player in place and dedicate it solely to use with the TV, then connect the BDP-80 to the receiver. You'd have to turn on the receiver for Blu-ray, but you'd probably want to in most cases anyway. The BDP-80 has three separate code sets (including a switch under the remote's battery cover), so you can use it and an OPPO DVD player side-by-side without conflict. I did that during beta testing, both with 983H/BDP-83 and with BDP-83/BDP-80.
I might just go ahead with the bdp-80 and use optical output (core audio) for now. I just can't decode DTS in my receiver. Too bad it can't spit out bitrate-limited lpcm over optical/coax. Then I could still get 5.1 over optical regardless of the encoding..
It can put PCM stereo over optical and coax, but that's hardly ideal...
 
#36 ·
I might just go ahead with the bdp-80 and use optical output (core audio) for now. I just can't decode DTS in my receiver.
That sounds like the best plan for now as everything else seems like a compromise. Personally, I hate to spend money on half solutions that I never end up being happy with. Then you can save up for the rest of the solution that gets you what you really want.
 
#37 ·
You could always leave your existing DVD player in place and dedicate it solely to use with the TV, then connect the BDP-80 to the receiver. You'd have to turn on the receiver for Blu-ray, but you'd probably want to in most cases anyway. The BDP-80 has three separate code sets (including a switch under the remote's battery cover), so you can use it and an OPPO DVD player side-by-side without conflict. I did that during beta testing, both with 983H/BDP-83 and with BDP-83/BDP-80.

It can put PCM stereo over optical and coax, but that's hardly ideal...
Yea... still have a lot to think about before I make any decisions.. Starting to save up for a receiver, but don't like the idea of buying one that is only a marginal step in the right direction..

PCM stereo over optical would be great if that's what went to the TV. And I can do that... And if all the blurays we buy that the kids are interested in also come with DVDs (like most of the disney ones it seems, come with both BD and DVD together), then I can still use source direct and all that jazz... bluray through the receiver, all else bypass the receiver. It could work..

That sounds like the best plan for now as everything else seems like a compromise. Personally, I hate to spend money on half solutions that I never end up being happy with. Then you can save up for the rest of the solution that gets you what you really want.
Agreed. Which is why I'm still trying to consider all options (even the crazy ones) ... The more I research the more I might just keep what we have and accept the compromise for now... certainly is the less expensive approach. :) What's silly is that even the "step up" receiver from mine (sr880) from the mid 90's is still several hundred dollars on eBay. I was shocked. It supports DTS and I was thinking "well I could just pick up an older model DD/DTS marantz for now for much less and get HD-audio later." Seems a refurb 5003 from accessories4less is only slightly more than a 10+ yr old receiver on eBay. :confused:

..dane
 
#38 ·
Update ...

Posted this on that other site that some of you never (or can't) visit anymore... :)

In short, I'm down to between the denon 1910 and the marantz 5003. My options are get the refurb'd Marantz 5003 (without any online coupons) and flip my VP30+ABT102 for a DVDO Edge, but that will force me to wait until late summer or christmas before getting the bluray player.. ironic, since bluray is the reason for the upgrade! OR... get the Denon 1910 (with online coupon) and get the bluray player now. That sounds logical. But lingering in the back of my head is, "but the Marantz would probably sound better..."

:saywhat:

To be clear- I've had Marantz literally my entire life.... My first setup was my dad's "handmedown" Model 7 tube Pre with Dynakit ST70 tube amp. ( :woo: ) That was replaced with a Model 7T + Fifteen stereo setup, which 12 years ago was finally replaced with my current SR780 surround receiver. I'm a bit reluctant to NOT go with Marantz... Never tried anything else... I'm having a hard time stomaching a move away from Marantz... :embarass:


Anyways, on to the post from the other site.. a good summary..
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The field is quickly narrowing with what AVR I will likely purchase in the near future.. The contenders are a Marantz SR5003 and a D3n0n AVR-1910. The D3n0n offers a very specific feature that would really make my life EASY (hdmi passthrough in standby mode)... But I just keep hearing over and over again how Marantz units typically sound better than D3n0n's... My setup includes RS750 Ninja Masters up front with RSC200 Bigfoot Ninja Master also up front, and RSS300 dipole surrounds, with twin UFW-10's (dual mono mode).

Help?!?

A brief comparison:

Both Units
  • Audyssey MultiEQ
  • 6-7th speaker outs can be reassigned as Zone2 speaker outs (removes need for external Zone2 amplifier)
D3n0n AVR-1910 only
  • 2010 model receiver
  • HDMI passthrough in standby mode :)
  • Audyssey DynamicEQ
  • Audyssey DynamicVolume
  • can apply AudEQ to bitstream but not to LPCM via HDMI
  • Dolby ProLogic IIz
  • per-speaker crossover settings
  • Needs a firmware update (by authorized service center only) for HDMI-CEC fix, will add shipping costs :(
Marantz SR5003 only
  • 2009 model receiver
  • can apply AudEQ to LPCM but not to bitstream via HDMI
  • pre-amp outputs
  • IR flasher in
  • DC trigger out
  • single (global) crossover settings
  • Time and again I read that the Marantz units just plain SOUND BETTER. :)


D3n0n AVR-1910




Marantz SR5003



thanks,
..dane
 
#39 ·
Dane, as David said on that 'other' site get the Marantz. You will not be disappointed at all. I plan on keeping that sucker for a long time to come. Especially since it has pre-outs. :)
 
#44 ·
I've been looking at the Marantz 6003. My only concern is the lack of an individual channel crossover. Am I being too picky? Does it matter that much? Should I "settle" for a system-wide crossover setting?

Thoughts and comments appreciated.
this IS an interesting question.. as my rears are much smaller than my fronts. And with my center channel now sitting inside a credenza (have to open the doors to watch a movie now), I was planning on setting the XO a little lower (my 12yr old AVR has a fixed XO at 100Hz (!!) ). However I would like to maintain a higher XO of the smaller rears and would enjoy the flexibility of a lower XO on the center if the credenza doesn't treat lower frequencies too nicely...

That said, I've lived with a fixed, all-speaker XO of 100Hz for the last 12 years. 6 of which have been with higher quality speakers (Rockets), roughly 3 of those with Ninja Master XO upgrades to the front triplet.

So, I second the question.. The Denon is still a contender, though as already mentioned, it does have its own set of drawbacks-- no preouts, and non-Marantz.

looking forward to hearing people's thoughts on this question...
..dane
 
#45 ·
Taking a step back .. a fresh perspective on technology..

below is a PM I sent someone on AVS earlier this evening.. after writing it I thought maybe I should open it up to wider input...

thanks,
..dane
___________________________________________

audiodane said:
hey <xx>.. respect your opinion quite a bit.. wanted to step back a momment and get your thoughts..

(EDIT: sorry for the "stream of consciousness" style of this note! Just goes to show how conflicted I am..)

I know BDP's have come a LONG way since there beginnings years ago.. but would you consider the implementation to be stable enough to spend a load of cash on a dedicated hifi component player like the Oppo?

It's not a "struggle" to buy the BDP-80, but it certainly needs to be budgeted. But more importantly, our current setup has lasted me 12 years, and whatever I buy needs to have a similar lifespan (10+). In that regard, I wonder if I would be better suited to get something "lesser" than the Oppo (in cost and likely quality) for now while things mature a bit more? (I hopped on the DVD bandwagon EARLY ... bought a $950 Marantz DVD player in 1999 that was pretty much unusable by 2005. Since then I've had MUCH lower quality players rotate through the system since I couldn't justify such a high expense again after getting married and having three kids.... I don't want to make a similar mistake again.)

This question would apply to a new AVR (and HDMI specs too, I suppose) just as much as it would a new BD player. The Denon 1910 I'm considering has some drawbacks (not Marantz, and no pre-outs) .. but is a **** of a lot cheaper AND supports hdmi passthrough in standby mode (meaning I would NOT have to upgrade to the DVDO Edge, saving ANOTHER boatload of money). All told it would save hundreds of dollars (a lot of money in casa de Walther, to be sure).. that's the (significant) lure... But emotionally I continue to return to wanting the Marantz.. I want the Marantz... but need to make sure it's the right choice. Not just the emotional one. It's certainly the more expensive choice (by a significant dollar figure [for me]). But that doesn't always make it the right choice.. I'm sure you can appreciate my predicament.

As someone in one of my threads wrote, "it looks like you're trying to find reasons to NOT spend money." And they're right! I upgrade my equipment so infrequently, I don't want to pay a lot now and in just a few years have to turn around and "pay the penalty" with outdated technology. If I'm going to pay a lot (which even the BDP80 is, in my opinion), it needs to last a LONG time.

For what it's worth, I am NOT interested in "3D" ... anything else, however, I don't know enough about.

I may end up posting these thoughts on my av123 and tweakcity threads. I want to upgrade. I just am so unsure of "now" being the right time to dive in with a significant long term investment..

Maybe we should just stick with DVD for a few more years... definitely a lower cost solution. :)


thanks so much buddy. sorry for rambling.. :eek:
..dane
 
#46 ·
Well either A) you have the money, B) you don't. It really is that simple. These are all tools and you always be the best tool you can afford, which isn't always the most expensive tool.

Not sure why the video processor is such a big deal for you. The cable/sats have many channels in HD now and the local stations are broadcast in HD. Many blurays upconvert DVD well enough these days. I'm not sure how much the video processor buys you in quality compared to other video processors contained in the bluray player, cable box, and tv. I am sure it is an improvement but by how much?

Did you already get the BDP-80? Can it be returned? Oppo is known for having good upscaling of DVDs. Maybe sell off the external video processor and get the BDP-83. Use the analog outputs of of the player to go to your existing AVR and use it as an amp. Audio can go straight to the tv via hdmi. And then do what I did, stop watching SD TV. More than enough useless tv on HD now. Then you have a great tool for playing blurays and DVDs and don't have the mess with your audio set up for probably less money.
 
#47 ·
Well either A) you have the money, B) you don't. It really is that simple. These are all tools and you always be the best tool you can afford, which isn't always the most expensive tool.

Not sure why the video processor is such a big deal for you. The cable/sats have many channels in HD now and the local stations are broadcast in HD. Many blurays upconvert DVD well enough these days. I'm not sure how much the video processor buys you in quality compared to other video processors contained in the bluray player, cable box, and tv. I am sure it is an improvement but by how much?

Did you already get the BDP-80? Can it be returned? Oppo is known for having good upscaling of DVDs. Maybe sell off the external video processor and get the BDP-83. Use the analog outputs of of the player to go to your existing AVR and use it as an amp. Audio can go straight to the tv via hdmi. And then do what I did, stop watching SD TV. More than enough useless tv on HD now. Then you have a great tool for playing blurays and DVDs and don't have the mess with your audio set up for probably less money.
thanks... quick reply:

- current avr has no discrete in's, or I'd be using them. :)

- I agree TV does a decent job of upconversion already; VP30 is actually a very fine auto-input switcher and HDMI converter, and is less power-hungry than running an AVR all the time. (and an AVR wouldn't have auto-input sense/switching) While EDGE does offer fancier processing, the key feature it offers (for me) is the ability to keep the AVR as an "endpoint" rather than a piece of the HDMI chain. EDGE will split off the audio and send to an AVR. Can I do this (reliably) with a splitter? maybe. that's one of my lower cost theories.

- no BDP yet.

cheers,
..dane
 
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