Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread - Page 38 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #371 of 944 Old 06-20-12, 05:42 PM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Quote:
richard7948 wrote: View Post
Answering Tesseract, I determined first reflection points by having a helper move a mirror along the wall while watchig from various seats. If I could see one of the front 3 speakers that is where absorption went. I didn't do that for surrounds though as I thought that would make the room too dead. The absorption for the front probably covers most of the areas for the surrounds though. The fibreglass is ordinary 6" thick wall insulation. I wove 4' X 16" 14" masonite through the studs to make convex shapes for diffusion. My drum collection in the back also diffuses.
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Off topic here, I was just wondering if different methods other than ray tracing or mirror were employed to determine the first reflection points, because dipole radiation to the sides is nil.

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post #372 of 944 Old 06-21-12, 04:52 PM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Hello,
Congrats indeed Ty. As the XPA Series use a good amount of Gain, the Trim Levels seem about right to me. Especially for the price AC4L has got the 972 going for with a 3 Year Warranty and it being A-Stock it really is something special. I really have greatly enjoyed mine and am glad you seem to be as well. I really do look forward to your insights as well.
Cheers,
J

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Speakers: Martin Logan Vantage (Mains), Martin Logan Stage (Center), Martin Logan Vista (Surrounds), Martin Logan Montages (Surrounds) Hsu Research VTF-15h MK2, Martin Logan Descent i (Subwoofer)
Amplification: Aragon 8008bb, Parasound HCA-3500, Parasound HCA-2205 AT, Parasound HCA-1000a
AVR/SSP: Denon AVR-4520CI
Electronics: OPPO BDP-93
Gaming Consoles: Sony PS4, Xbox 360 S (250 gb)
Display: Panasonic TC-P65ZT60, Sony KDL-55EX500, Sony KD-34XBR910
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post #373 of 944 Old 06-21-12, 05:07 PM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

I have done numerous Trinnov calibrations as I am working on subwoofer placements before I decide on what to build yet. I noticed that I was missing the 6db boost on subsequent calibrations that was there when I first did the firmware bass boost upgrade. I also noticed that the calibrations after the first were not quite as good. I decided to reset the 972 and double checked that all my previous calibrations were erased from memory and did a new calibration. I then went into my SMS-1 to measure the subs after calibration then applied the 6db boost file and re-measured with the SMS-1 and my 6db boost was back. A quick listening session confirmed that the bass was much improved again as the boost file seems to do more than just raise the level as it wasn't the same than just turning up my subs 6db.

It is a little bit of a pain to go back and re-do all of your set-up when doing a factory reset but it definitely made a difference with my re-calibration. The calibration on my subs was also soooooo much better after doing a factory reset as well that I didn't have to use my SMS-1 to drop some serious peaks.

Just thought I would throw that info out there in case subsequent calibrations don't seem right like it did for me. Once Trinnov is set-up correctly it can do some amazing things.
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post #374 of 944 Old 06-21-12, 11:01 PM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Thanks JJ, Ill reserve judgement for now but I should share some of my initial complications and hopefully Ill get some input.

My brand new 50' calibration microphone extension cord was unsuccessful, several attempts were made and it either didnt like the cable or didnt like the length. I made do with a 20' extension, and that seemed to work fine, but such a short extension will prevent my intended third calibration of the outdoor system I have in the back yard. Dont really hold this against the AVR, perhaps a 65' calibration cable is not realistic.

Setting up a Trinnov 5.1 room and a stereo room, using the R972 Trinnov Optimizer Application Notes written by Curt Hoyt, was unsuccessful. Using the back surround preouts to the UPA-2 for zone 2 would calibrate the 2 channel system correctly but I couldnt seem to get any sources to work. So, using my Monster SS4 speaker selector switch I ran both the main towers in the 5.1 system and the pair in zone 2 off the XPA-5 left and right channels. This worked and I finally got sound in zone 2 but for some reason NOW switching back to my first 5.1 calibration only puts out to the left and right two speakers, it was a successful calibration to 5.1 and remains in the AVR as such! This is the strangest issue Ive experienced thus far.

I seem to have lost pq despite being in bypass (no processing) and not converting from hdmi to component or visversa. This receiver may have an awesome video processor but so far Ive not been impressed with its implementation. My Marantz was always set to bypass and it never affected pq so Im a little puzzled by this Sherwood issue.

HDMI handshake issues have been an issue from the moment I powered-on the Sherwood. HDMI performance has always been perfect, and I do mean perfect, from my Marantz. From all the reviews Ive read of the Sherwood I was kinda expecting HDMI issues but I had hoped that adding a monoprice hdmi splitter/amp to the Sherwood would solve any handshake issues. It did help but there are still occasional issues. Once HDMI is locked-on it works good. I have also had component to component problems, this was not expected. Luckily they have not been serious but I was still surprised to see component video messing up.

The user interface is very counter intuitive. Ive struggled to find the right settings just to assign inputs and outputs for, admittedly, a complicated system with multiple rooms and displays. I am beginning to wonder if it will ever be possible to switch between two zones in under 10 button pushes.

The sound quality and processing of the Sherwood R-972 is absolutely awesome. From an audio-performance perspective Ive achieved substantial performance improvements, and in every regard; bass management, imaging, detail, sound field, the hype is very accurate and this is truly a remarkable performer. Im pretty persistent so hopefully I can take advantage of such a fine processor and solve some of the current issues Im having, any input is appriciated.
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post #375 of 944 Old 06-22-12, 09:28 AM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Hello,
Ty, I am sorry to read about your PQ issues and HDMI Handshake issues. As for HDMI Handshake, aside from a longer than usual delay, I have not had any other issues. The HQV Reon Processor has certainly always Bench Tested well, but I cannot remember seeing an extensive Review of the 972's VP Section. While Reon is now somewhat dated, I am amazingly still using it in my TX-NR3008 while have been using it since my TX-SR875 around 5 Years ago. While I do connect HDMI 1 from my OPPO directly into my display, I really am quite happy with the 3008's VP. I am so glad you have seen great results with Trinnov. I have been quite impressed with it to say the least.
J

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Speakers: Martin Logan Vantage (Mains), Martin Logan Stage (Center), Martin Logan Vista (Surrounds), Martin Logan Montages (Surrounds) Hsu Research VTF-15h MK2, Martin Logan Descent i (Subwoofer)
Amplification: Aragon 8008bb, Parasound HCA-3500, Parasound HCA-2205 AT, Parasound HCA-1000a
AVR/SSP: Denon AVR-4520CI
Electronics: OPPO BDP-93
Gaming Consoles: Sony PS4, Xbox 360 S (250 gb)
Display: Panasonic TC-P65ZT60, Sony KDL-55EX500, Sony KD-34XBR910
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post #376 of 944 Old 06-22-12, 04:08 PM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Thanks again Jack. Ill happily live with the Sherwood's HDMI quirks if I can bend it to my will. However I consider the failure of using the surround back channels, as a second and third Trinnov calibration, the most serious of complications and something I really do hope to resolve. Now no matter the settings in source or AVR I only get two channel when switching back to the 5.1 calibration, very perplexing. Since I did have a chance to listen to both the 5.1 and 2.1 calibration I will reiterate that Trinnov transformed both systems in a remarkable way.
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post #377 of 944 Old 06-22-12, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Ty, did you set the input surround mode to auto in the user setup?

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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post #378 of 944 Old 06-22-12, 07:14 PM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Yep tried that and didnt make any difference. For some reason I only had the choice between stereo and Dolby Headphone as processing modes, even when I switched to the 5.1 calibration. Re-calibrated zone 1 and no luck. Factory reset the AVR, re-calibrated zone 1 and all is back to normal. This isnt over yet, I really liked what Trinnov did with the pair of Martin Logans in zone 2, Ill try a second calibration again in that zone and see what happens.
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post #379 of 944 Old 06-30-12, 10:06 PM
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Preface
Well its been long enough, and I think I have a good handle on this receivers' performance, that I can share my impressions. Obviously I cant help but to directly compare this Sherwood to my former Marantz AVR, so my impressions are more a matter of what I lost or gained rather just a quick review of the Sherwood. Prior to my Sherwood purchase I had read every pro and user review I could find. Ive always found that kind of reading very handy for getting base-line settings and adjustments, as well as advanced notice for possible issues with a units performance. Im very happy to report that some of the issues I had read, in some reviews, were either solved by subsequent firmware updates or were just seemingly blown out of proportion by the reviewer. At the same time I did manage to experience some issues that werent in any of the reviews, some of these were solved while still others are in the works to be solved. The following observations were made using a 5.1 surround sound system comprised of av123 Signature speakers: RS 1000 tower mains (powered woofers enabled), RS 250 MK2 bookshelf rears on stands, an RSC 200 center on a short floor stand, and finally a single Hsu VTF2 Mk3 (single-port-open mode) for a sub. Ive also done some critical listening with a 2.1 system comprised of wall-mounted Martin Logan LX-16 bookshelf speakers and a single Hsu VTF2 MK3 sub (also operating in single-port-open mode). I use external amplifiers to include an Emotiva XPA-5 for the av123 signatures and an Emotiva UPA-2 for the Martin Logans, sorry I wont be able to comment on the amp power of this AVR.


It's all about the sound
This is, if youll forgive the expression, an audiophile's receiver. Its Trinnov room calibration system will transform your existing surround sound system in ways you probably didnt think possible. Can you identify the location of each of your speakers when in operation? Do you have a center speaker that is installed either well above or well below your screen? Have you ever experienced a difference in fidelity between AVRs from different manufactures? The Sherwood seems to answer all of those questions, it did for me anyway. The sound stage is far more seamless, imaging is locked dead-center on the screen and the bass management seems very refined and controlled, all vast improvements in my system. I also noticed immediate improvements in details over my former AVR, the Marantz SR8002. While the Marantz was a fine AVR it was still clearly no match for the Sherwood, even in the details. The Marantz had always seemed the most detailed of any AVR I had ever owned, so this Sherwood took me by surprise when it brought the finer details to the front of the stage. Speaking of forward, whats most remarkable is how much the sound stage is shoved towards the listener, even the strike of a single piano key has a greater impact than I had ever previously experienced. Sadly, despite it being published to the contrary, I was not able to make use of the empty surround back preouts and have a second Trinnov calibration for my Martin Logan 2.1 system. However, again; details, imaging and dynamics were all vastly improved over my former Marantz, and thats just using the Sherwood's zone 2 non calibrated preouts.


Ummm, there's a catch
As good as the Sherwood's audio processing power is, its video processing prowess is absolutely dismal. The HDMI doesn't communicate well with my display, somewhat expected with all the reviews I had read. Ironically enough this is something that the Marantz always did perfectly. In fact, never once did I have any handshake issues of any kind, ever, with the Marantz SR8002. First verifying that I had the updated firmware (I had 1.47i installed) I had an HDMI amp laying around unused and decided to give that a shot. It did seem to improve the handshake speed and reliability with my HDMI projector but the initial handshake can still be bothersome and it will take me some time to figure out if there is a special sequence that will give me more consistent performance. On a good note I will say that once the HDMI handshake is completed, correctly, it is perfectly stable from there on out and Im certainly grateful for that. There is a slight delay between when the image is displayed and the sound begins, when using HDMI audio, but it doesnt seem as serious an issue as some reviewers would have you believe, at least not IMO.

That brings us to the Sherwood's component video output. Thats right, I still use an old two channel analog audio connection and an old 720p component video connection in my zone 2. I love component and I love what it does for my old 720p Mitsubishi projector in that zone, but sadly the Sherwood doesnt do component correctly either. I periodically get these weird squiggly lines or corrupted video, regardless if the source is my Oppo BDP-93 blu ray player or the Comcast DVR. I have also experienced a loss of the on-screen menu using the component output, this issue has been duplicated on both the Mitsubishi projector and a Vizio 19" LED I occasionally use for system settings. I have never lost the onscreen menu over the HDMI connection so this seems a strange issue. Again, the Marantz was always perfect with its component connection, I was very surprised to see that the Sherwood could not at least follow suit in this regard, even if perfect HDMI performance might have been too much to ask. Currently on-order is the $100 Cables to Go 6x2 Component Video Selector Switch which will essentially by-pass the Sherwood's component video processing. Wish me luck on that one...

Minor quibbles
I found that the included calibration mic cable was a little short for all but the smallest of rooms, however the Sherwood didnt like the 50' extension and I could only extend it with a 20' cable. I made do but I never had a problem extending Audussey mic cables an additional 50' and I was surprised the Trinnov mic couldn't do the same.

Obviously anyone who has had the displeasure of using the included remote will agree that its bad. But when the big square "enter" button is so poorly designed that pressing it will sometimes lock it down under the remote housing, and then youre wondering why the remote doesnt work at all, well thats brings the term "bad remote" to a whole new level in my book. That happened a couple of times, as I was attempting to program universal remotes, very unusual flaw and Im not likely to ever forget that one again.


In conclusion
Despite all the apparent bashing above, I adore this AVR. Its a remarkable audio processor that is capable of transforming your speakers and the way you listen to them. Perhaps Sherwood will continue to refine the firmware, and correct its major quirks, but when I consider that it's already a discontinued product I have my doubts that any fixes will ever be forthcoming. For me, I dont think I will ever care if Sherwood corrects anything further. Frankly I just consider myself lucky to have spent a mere $600 on a clearance audio processor with a sound quality like the Sherwood R-972.
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post #380 of 944 Old 06-30-12, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 Official Thread

Ty, great review. I am sorry that its given you so much grief with the Handshake. Its so hit and miss with receivers it seems as I have yet to have any issues with it locking on to my Sony LCD display. The component problems is interesting, Ive not tried that and maybe just for the fun of it I should.
Your 972 remote mist a a slight defect as Ive never had a button "lock" under the lip or get stuck, I would give Accessories4less a call and get a replacement. Just a side note my harmony 880 has worked flawlessly with the 972 so it is a great option. I have my original remote in a box tucked away now.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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