getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000 - Page 7 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Old 05-24-14, 04:48 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

Quote:
gazoink wrote: View Post
Vector sum, simply put, is the result when summing two signals considering their relative amplitudes and phase angles. Assuming identical amplitudes within .1dB (a huge assumption, actually), the result is based on the relative phase angles in the splice. Assuming basic in-phase condition of the mains and subs, at 80Hz, 1' is 26.2 degrees, and that creates a vector sum result of -0.5dB re perfectly in phase. If the splice were at 40Hz, the difference would be even less, as the phase difference for 1ft would be 13.1 degrees. If the distance between the sub and mains were more like 3.5' (that's 90 degrees at 80Hz), the vector sum would be about -3dB, again assuming perfect level match.
Which is a high tech way of saying...bass waves don't play and get along well with each other.

...
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Old 05-24-14, 04:51 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

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Architect7 wrote: View Post
You are misreading the graph. It is not 6db down at 80hz. ARC2 would be a joke if it was and no on would buy it. Please look at the graph again.
Before I posted, I did take the time to look at the graph again.

I'll give you 50Hz. Maybe you can point out where I'm going wrong as what I was seeing makes no sense unless there's graphs not being shown but I only have the graph in front of me to go by.
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Old 05-24-14, 05:07 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

I drew a line at the approximate center between 50hz and 100hz, ~75hz. If anything, the response is UP at that point, likely ARC 2 doing something for the transition to the subwoofer. Again, the -6db at 80hz is not present.

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Old 05-24-14, 05:13 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

I don't have the graph so I can measure the top vs -6dB down so I'm approximating.

I'm responding to the hump and from the top to -6dB down is where the +/-3dB mark is which is what speakers and subwoofer manufactures consider an acceptable performance standard.

I don't like showing graphs as it smacks of if I show you mine, will you show me yours; ego. We have the same subs so I'll post our in room graphs for our subwoofer system, using XT32/SubEQ HT, all speakers playing. My concern with the graph you're posting is the left side that rolls off sharply which tells me the owner of the graph is loosing much of what they are paying for and not getting full benefit of the subwoofer's capability. What am I not understanding?

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Old 05-24-14, 05:30 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

Please note that those graphs are for Front Right and Surround Right. There is no subwoofer shown on those graphs.

Vizio XVT-553SV - Anthem MRX-500 - Vincent SAV-P200 - Xbox One - Xbox 360 - WD Live TV - Sony DVP-S7700 - RAW Acoustics Lambda Plus line arrays - RAW Acoustics HT4 towers (rear) - RAW Acoustics Apex C II center - Rythmik FV15HP
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Old 05-24-14, 05:40 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

Quote:
Architect7 wrote: View Post
Please note that those graphs are for Front Right and Surround Right. There is no subwoofer shown on those graphs.
Thanks! That helps as I didn't see anything on the graph indicating it was restricted to the above two speakers.

If you set your crossovers to 80Hz, the graph makes perfect sense.
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Old 05-24-14, 08:14 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

Quote:
BeeMan458 wrote: View Post
I don't have the graph so I can measure the top vs -6dB down so I'm approximating.
I'm responding to the hump and from the top to -6dB down is where the +/-3dB mark is which is what speakers and subwoofer manufactures consider an acceptable performance standard.
I don't like showing graphs as it smacks of if I show you mine, will you show me yours; ego. We have the same subs so I'll post our in room graphs for our subwoofer system, using XT32/SubEQ HT, all speakers playing. My concern with the graph you're posting is the left side that rolls off sharply which tells me the owner of the graph is loosing much of what they are paying for and not getting full benefit of the subwoofer's capability. What am I not understanding?
This is a good looking graph but there is a lot of EQ being applied below the sub's tuning to achieve it.
You have a couple of great subwoofers but they are >20dB down at 10Hz.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP_specs.html
Looking at the XT graphs you have in your gallery your room does not add low end gain.
So all of this below 20Hz is being achieved by the electronics feeding the sub, actually I am surprised >20dB below the sub's tuning can be added.
If any meaningful SPL level of content below 20Hz comes through it could easily bottom out the subs because they are not actually capable of producing it.
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Old 05-24-14, 08:50 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

Just saying, based on conversations, the sub's tuning is 12Hz. This is an absolutely "amazing" subwoofer.

Quote:
chashint wrote: View Post
You have a couple of great subwoofers but they are >20dB down at 10Hz.
Because of the ported design, they're literally engineered to fall like a stone below 12Hz. I knew this going in as I spoke with Rythmik on this point, before making the purchase.

Quote:
Looking at the XT graphs you have in your gallery your room does not add low end gain.
That's because of the filters on the Anti-Mode 8033S II. Anti-Mode is the limit switch, not the subwoofers or lack of room gain. I didn't know this point until getting a receiver with XT32 w/SubEQ HT. The problem was the Anti-Mode appliance, not the lack of room gain as the FV15HPs were chosen for their unique ability. When I got Anti-Mode out of the way, room gain was allowed to show itself.

(kudos to basshead81 for his recommendation as we had many conversations on this point)

Quote:
If any meaningful SPL level of content below 20Hz comes through it could easily bottom out the subs because they are not actually capable of producing it.
Based on your above, I can see you're not familiar with the capabilities of the FV15HPs.... There's absolutely zero chance of us bottoming out the subwoofer system. With one port closed, there's the singular off chance of chuffing but zero worry about bottoming out at reference level play. You have no idea how good these subwoofers are. These subwoofers recline in the world of better than ideal.

At this price point, there ain't nothing better than the FV15HP. To get better, at almost twice the price, one has to go to a pair of JTR S2s and unless one wants to literally blow their roof off or dig deeper than humanity can hear, there's no need to purchase a pair of S2s. And besides, we can't afford twice the price or we'd have a pair of S2s.

(disclosure: we don't use the full capability/use out of our pair of FV15HPs, so we surely wouldn't get the best out of a pair of S2s)

Last edited by BeeMan458; 05-25-14 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 07-05-14, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

ok...now back onto the topic. I pulled the trigger and purchased the X4000 hopefully I will get it wednesday
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Old 07-05-14, 06:08 PM
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Re: getting ready to pull trigger on Denon x4000

I thought all of the upper end Denon's were 3.2 ohm stable? My Denon drove my 4 ohm speakers just fine, as others have said, do not put to much stock in that spec.

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