Lexicon MC-12 and high end processors, you pay for the name.

People always assume that high end high priced audio will be superior in every aspect to your standard receiver, this can be true when dealing with analog 2CH setups but in home theater it is not. High end companies either do a direct rebadged and sell it for a huge profit or they design their own but as you will see there is nothing high end about it.

Lexicon MC-12.





Here we see the Digital I/O Board "top" and Analog I/O Board "bottom" obviously they are in no way superior to how a receiver is built/designed. Obviously there will be no sonic improvements using a DSP/DAC since the high end does not use anything special or better then what is used in today's receivers so the difference would be in the analog section of the product. As you can see there is nothing superior about the analog section of a very expensive Lexicon MC-12.

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexi...mr_images.html

Here is where I found the pictures.

Halcro SSP100/200.

The halcro uses the Vinci Labs Titan OEM SSP platform.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=973556

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....0&SQ=0&start=0

In these threads we found out that they do infact use the titan platform.





As you can see by the back layout the halcro "top" and parasound "bottom" have the same layout and most of it is exactly the same. The halcro also uses the following DSP/DAC, Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56367 Audio DAC: ASAHI KASEI AK4395 The HDMI also has an Audio DSP: Motorola DSP56371.

Mcintosh MX135/136.



The DSP system Mac uses.

http://www.mds.com/products/product.asp?prod=DAE%2D5



The analog section for one channel.



This shows the power supply section of the mac, the two things I did like about the make is the power section and the analog section when compaired to the lexicon.

[Sonnie]

Very interesting... I think I'm learning this the hard way.

So what would an MC-12 really be worth... in your or anyone else's estimation?

So what would an MC-12 really be worth... in your or anyone else's estimation?

As far as audio performance it would not be worth more then a middle of the line denon receiver but since these units are not mass produced (I have not seen the lexicon factory) it would cost more based on worker fee's. I do not care if people buy high end equipment but do not say that is sounds superior especially when it comes to home theater.

[brent_s]

This looks like a good place to introduce this research article. I don't think high end A/V gear would be immune to the same power of suggestion.

This is what I think separates an SVS type company from so called "high end" brands. They're founded on engineering principles, which to me, include pricing that covers their costs (R&D, mfg, real estate, house keeping, etc) plus a modest profit margin. As the referenced research shows, a company can increase the perception of quality by simply charging more with no material/accounting basis for it.

Anybody remember the dust up when the original Outlaw 950 was identified as having no identifiable differences with Atlantic Technology and Sherbourn Lab's prepro? The latter two had MSRPs nearly double the Outlaw's price. Sherbourn did try to make a weak argument that their model used some unidentified higher quality parts above the standard platform developed by EastTech for the 3 companies to share.

Manufacturers have probably gotten more sophiscticated now, but once upon a time, some hid features in a product line by simply supplying the various price points with different remote controls. The lower priced unit, say a CD player, wouldn't have a random play feature that the brand's $100 more model did. One day some enterprising person pointed the upline model's remote at the lower priced unit and pressed Random...oops. If you've ever worked in manufacturing to price points, this is just a common sense approach. Do the R&D more or less once and then plug and play components (DAC, DSP chip, etc) and turn on/off features that are going to be in the firmware regardless to stratify a product line. If you think about it, it works for most any type of consumer product. What makes Diesel jeans worth more than Levis?

-Brent

[lcaillo]

I am not a proponent of high end products, but I do have a brain and there are often significant differences in amplifiers and processors. For instance, the design of a D/A converter can be significantly different in two circuits implementing the same chips and result in very different performance. To assume that just because a product is expensive it is overpriced, or that the parts don't make a difference. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Evaluate the performance, feature content, and usability, then discuss the value of a unit. Making assumptions can just as easily make you wrong as it can make you right.

but the software written on them. And Lexicon has some really great room correction stuff. Sure, others have systems that do similar things, and some cost a whole lot less.

Yes but we are dealing with DD and DTS, they write the code. Don't start with logic7 because you can get that in a HK receiver.

For instance, the design of a D/A converter can be significantly different in two circuits implementing the same chips and result in very different performance.

But we obviously did not see that in the pictures.

http://www.lexicon.com/image_library/RV5_rear_lo.jpg

http://www.harmankardon.com/back.asp...me=AVR745B.jpg

As we can see in these pictures the lexicon receiver is a direct rebadge of the HK.

http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=461&PN=2

This is from a lexicon forum.

Speculation from the previous RV-5 thread seems correct. The specs appear to match the H/K AVR-745.

http://www.lexicon.com/products/specs.asp?ID=26

http://www.harmankardon.com/specific...;20745&sType=C

That should fix it.

These are lexicon owners talking about how the RV-5 is a rebadge of a HK.

[conchyjoe7]

The Lexicon is a poor choice to compare as a "high end" product, as most everyone knows that in the case of Lexicon, the only thing high end is the price. I have never seen that MC12 reviewed by anyone with credibility that didn't rate it as merely average. However, I do believe (actually, I know because I can hear it) that there are differences in some equipment. John Curl for example designs amps and preamps (for Parasound mainly) that are as good as that equipment gets and while they are not cheap, they are a fraction of the price of the uber high end companies who shall remain nameless from me...and I have tried many many times to hear a difference...what little difference there is comes down to a matter of "voicing" IMHO. That said, and again speakers of superior quality must be used, but, I can definitely hear the difference between a mid fi AVR and a stout pre/pro with a couple of super beefy amps...and no, not merely in the volume either (I'm really not interested in the volume)!

I think we all know that Porsche, BMW, Audi, and some of the other high end cars are well worth the difference in price over their lower priced competitors (although admittedly not in all cases). I think we all also realise that rebadging is evident in many cases with autos. I for one took out an Infiniti G35 and a top of the line Nissan Altima. The price for the Altima was a fraction of the Infiniti, but for all intents and purposes IMHO they were except for minor cosmetic differences; essentially the same automobile. I find much the same between Honda and Acura, and Toyota and Lexus. Don't get me wrong, there are some "foo foo" differences I perceived, but not a lot, and certainly not enough to justify the price difference. We all however must remember that for a lot of people, the badge alone justifies the price to them in their mind, and so...who are we to say different...it's all in the perception (mostly).

Cheers,
Konky.

I'm talking about room correction technology. Doesn't this Lexicon piece include their room calibration/correction software?

The MC-12 can have this option (for $3000).

I can definitely hear the difference between a mid fi AVR and a stout pre/pro with a couple of super beefy amps...and no, not merely in the volume either (I'm really not interested in the volume)!

Who said anything about amps? What processor would you say is one of the better to pick from?

[lcaillo]

Your sarcastic response does not enhance the discussion. Many people have very different levels of perception and value performance levels differently. Some people simply may not care about the differences between an Altima and a G35 and might never notice them while some people may not care about the difference between a cheap receiver or boom box with an IC for an output device an a more capable amplifier.

Lets stick to the topic and not get into criticism or sarcasm directed at individuals. If you want to point out a difference in the two models that he did not note, this is fine. It can be done in a manner that tells the facts but does not start a personal battle. We have seen this kind of thing go on in other forums and are not interested in it here. Stick to the facts and minimize the sarcasm directed at individuals.

[conchyjoe7]

DS21...Thankfully we absolutely do live in entirely different universes, and I'm at a loss for words to express how happy I am about that fact!

[Sonnie]

Okay guys... Leonard has already expressed that we don't need the sarcasm... as well as our rules prohibit the same. Let's stay on topic with the OP thread.

Thanks!

[rubbersoul]

Currently I have the Outlaw 990 processor. Very pleased. Outlaws 997 is coming out for the holidays. I have looked at the Integra 9.8 which is discontinued and I do not know if the Integra 9.9 is worth the added price. The Outlaw 997 will sell for $1400 and since I am an owener of the 990 there will be a $200 discount.
I also have the Outlaw 7700 amplifier but do not intend to sell.

Any opinion as to other processors that are of good quality and reasonably priced?

[jerome]

lcaillo wrote:

I am not a proponent of high end products, but I do have a brain and there are often significant differences in amplifiers and processors. For instance, the design of a D/A converter can be significantly different in two circuits implementing the same chips and result in very different performance. To assume that just because a product is expensive it is overpriced, or that the parts don't make a difference. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Evaluate the performance, feature content, and usability, then discuss the value of a unit. Making assumptions can just as easily make you wrong as it can make you right.

I totally agree with you. It becomes even more important when manufacturers uses DSP, FPGA, processors to perform the most complex tasks. And in this case, the complexity is hidden and it can cost 10times more for a company to implement a better solution than a simple one. Component cost is not easy to see either: a 1% (or 0.5%) resistor can cost 10, 100, 500 times more than a standard 5% or 10% part, just because the required value is special, the ordered quantity is low or the specs are much better.

Looking at the product package is also an incorrect way to judge a product IMO. It's not because two products have the same packaging (front and back panels) that they are the same inside. Yamaha receivers for instance are often very similar on the outside but can be VERY different on the inside. It's simply used to improve reuse of parts and save costs.

[lcaillo]

Well, the Yamaha analogy is a poor one. In fact, most of the rebadging that they have done for multiple lines has been he same product with slighly different feature sets, if even that difference. My point is that one should not assume that some of the same parts or chassis means complete similarity. You would think, however, that manufacturers would point out the differences and be proud of them if they are there.

[tonyvdb]

rubbersoul wrote:

Currently I have the Outlaw 990 processor. Very pleased. Outlaws 997 is coming out for the holidays. I have looked at the Integra 9.8 which is discontinued and I do not know if the Integra 9.9 is worth the added price. The Outlaw 997 will sell for $1400 and since I am an owener of the 990 there will be a $200 discount.
I also have the Outlaw 7700 amplifier but do not intend to sell.

Any opinion as to other processors that are of good quality and reasonably priced?

I sometimes wonder about the differences between Onkyo and Integra they are the same company and in my opinion the Integra line is over priced. They say that they use better components with less tolerance but dont know if that truly makes for an audible difference in the end. For example you can get an Onkyo 876 for around $1100 a comparable Integra dtr 9.8 is well over $2000 whats even more intresting is the Integra dhc 9.9 is about $1600 and has no amplifier section. I question this logically it should be less money not more dont you think. The Outlaw line seems to have a much better price and in my opinion is just as good.

[lcaillo]

As has been pointed out, small changes in precision in parts can represent dramatic price increases. Consider also that the Integra line represents a very small part of overall sales. The volume of each item sold is likely several orders of magnitude smaller, which makes for much higher cost. When you intend to sell a few thousand of something, compared to tens or hundreds of thousands, the production costs are very different.

[rubbersoul]

Thanks Tony,
You are right about the Integra 9.8 being discontinued and the 9.9 is picking up the flag and carrying on with Integras' legacy. The price for the Integra 9.9 is $1600.00. That's and additional $400.00 more than the 997 will cost me. ($1200.00) plus shipping and handling.
I want a deal and I do believe the 997 is it. I am very pleased with the 990 and Outlaws customer support.
I had been noseing around for a processor and was impressed with the Integra but I am cautious about pulling the trigger especially before the 997 comes out.
The salesperson claims the Integra will really update the picture quality of my Infocus 7205 quite a bit.
Personelly I do not think that I have a bad picture now with the 990 and the 997 video processing is suppose to be superior.
I guess I had to be patient and wait.
Thanks for your input.
Frank

[daniel]

the same subject have been posted all over the web, with differnet name, but always the same writing style. Someone is on a crusade.





Similarly, one mona lisa over the other are getting rip-off because it's the same thing as the former. Same colors, same smile, same...the first one is only a poster

[Lordoftherings]

Lexicon MC-12 HD review:

@ http://hometheaterreview.com/lexicon...nema-reviewed/
-> Just write your e-mail address and subscribe FREE to it.

* By the way, this Pre/Pro list for $14,000 USA.

But the street price is about $10,895 (one is for sale right now, at Ultimate Audio Video).
Also, one was sold at Audiogon for only $6,500 (and Yes, it was the MC-12 HD version).

[resqguy]

I think the OP's premise is flawed. Instead of the car analogy a better example would be to compare Ruth's Chris to Outback by showing a picture of a cow.

Showing a picture of the end result is not any kind of representation of the cost it takes to build it. The manufacturer's goal for product life cycle is also a consideration. Lexicon doesn't flip models at the same rate as even HK.

What all this means to me is the improvement in quality of low end to mid receivers and pre/pros. By integrating more functionality in fewer parts manufacturers have increased the value in lower end products. This is a good thing for the consumer but a bad thing for the high end brands as they struggle to find ways to differentiate themselves.

[Jarrod]

I don't understand the logic of the OP at all. How do you look at a photo of two PCBs and make any judgement as to how similarly they perform? How many layers are in the PCB? What is the quality of the components soldered onto the board? What tolerances are used for matching components to each other in a mass-marketed product vs. a "high-end" product? None of these issues are addressed even peripherally in this topic.

By my way of thinking you cannot judge such things by simply looking at photos of the products. You have to actually listen for yourself and make a judgment. I'm not arguing that the law of diminishing returns doesn't play a role. It certainly DOES play a role. But that is up to the individual to decide if paying more for an MC12-HD is "worth it" or not vs. purchasing a mid-grade HK receiver. Of course they are going to share technology and features. But to say they sound "the same" based on a few photographs is just silly.

Do you get more for your money with a mid-line recieiver vs. a $10k pre/pro? I'd say without a doubt. But does the $10k pre/pro offer additions that are "worth it" to those who can afford it? The answer here is also, without a doubt. Otherwise the product would not exist.

[sub_crazy]

resqguy wrote:

I think the OP's premise is flawed. Instead of the car analogy a better example would be to compare Ruth's Chris to Outback by showing a picture of a cow.

Great analogy

[sub_crazy]

I have had high end pre-pro's, lower end receivers and a LOT in between and can say without a doubt that to ME there is a difference. I wouldn't venture to guess what some other component sounds like just based on pictures, I am fortunate enough to be able to try these products in my own system and judge for my-self.

I will admit that Lexicon products are not my cup of tea but have never owned a MC-12, I have only owned the DC-2 and MC-1 a long time ago and there music presentation was below par.

I have also owned both the Parasound Halo C2 and Halcro SSP-100 which was later upgraded to a SSP-200 and even though they were based on the same basic design the sound difference was phenomenal. Even people who had problems with faulty Halcro's and converted to the Denon pre-pro still admitted the halcro had better SQ and these are people who were not happy with Halcro.

I will freely admit that an excellent receiver like the Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH which I bought to tide me over until the Halcro returned from it's upgrade is about 85 to 90% as good for movies. That last 10 to 15% is what you pay for in High End. With the SSP-200 compared to the Pio Elite the difference was basically from getting startled from an explosion to jumping out of the seat. The Halcro also took time to get used to as we would stop movies as we thought we heard a noise coming from somewhere else in the house. It wasn't until after I played back the same clip that we realized it was from the movie and wondered how it could sound so clear coming from a point were no speaker was around.
The best way I can describe the difference in sound between the Halcro SSP-200 and the Pioneer Elite VSX-94 (which I really like by the way) is that with the Elite you hear your speakers performing great. With the SSP-200 you no longer hear your speakers on an individual level, they tend to disappear and with all the lights off it would be hard to point out were the speakers are. The SSP-200 produces the best soundscape of any device I have ever used and my speakers and subs have never blended together so well.

I have since sold my SSP-200 to try other pre-pro's but to be honest I haven't bested it yet, only come close.

[Jarrod]

sub-crazy I agree with your take on how good high-end pieces create a seamless soundfield where your speakers seem to disappear. That's a great description of how it works when you get it right.

To defend Lexicon a little, I currently use one of their amps (the CX7) in my main system and to me it sounds so sweet - it was worth every penny I paid and then some. I also own an old HK amp (PA5800) and have always loved its warm sound as well. I haven't heard their pre/pros or receivers but Harman (HK and Lexicon) amps sound fabulous to me and I don't plan on parting with them anytime soon.

I've owned one other THX-certified amp (Marantz) and while it sounded good and produced lots of clean SPLs, it did not have the dynamics, "fullness", or sound stage of the Lexicon. It was not a subtle difference when I switched to the Lex!

I admit I'd like to try Rotel sometime but I've been so happy with the Lex that I'm just not curious enough anymore unless someone decides to give me one