New system for the great room...

[Sonnie]

I would still like an option B and C. I've got some time before the entertainment center will be ready... and I would hate to know I missed out on something else.

[avaserfi]

Sonnie wrote:

Yes, I could do the mod with no problems... the Peel N Seal looks like Dynamat, which I have some of that already. I also have some Rubberoid that would have to be glued.

Peal N Seal and Dynamat are essentially the same thing with the former being the cheaper version. Let me know what you think of the speaker before and after the mod.

Ohh yeah, because I haven't done it in the last five minutes how about that Sub-100

*nudge nudge*

[avaserfi]

Sonnie wrote:

I would still like an option B and C. I've got some time before the entertainment center will be ready... and I would hate to know I missed out on something else.

Honestly, at that price point I am not aware of anything that meets much less exceeds the performance of the CBM-170 for this specific application. The drivers and crossovers are higher quality than found in most speakers at and below its price point and even some of higher quality loudspeakers.

Normally I would be willing to make multiple recommendations for a situation, but as of now I just can't in good conscience .

[Sonnie]

Unfortunately the sub ain't gonna happen. She has plans for the only area it could go and there isn't enough room for it in the center rack.

I'm not asking for necessarily something to meet or exceed this setup... just something else to consider that would be second and third best. If Ascend didn't exist or if they go out of business before I buy... ... what would you (or anyone else) choose. If that company didn't exist, what would the third choice be?

I like options.

[avaserfi]

Sonnie wrote:

Unfortunately the sub ain't gonna happen. She has plans for the only area it could go and there isn't enough room for it in the center rack.

Well then you could try the Yamaha thing and see if you/your wife likes it, but I think you will want to put a high pass filter on the thing at around 40-50Hz as I have a feeling distortion will be very audible below and possibly above this cut off. With minor woodworking skill you could probably build a custom enclosure designed for this specific purposes, but that would probably call for a Behringer.

Sonnie wrote:

I'm not asking for necessarily something to meet or exceed this setup... just something else to consider that would be second and third best. If Ascend didn't exist or if they go out of business before I buy... ... what would you (or anyone else) choose. If that company didn't exist, what would the third choice be?

I like options.

The next best option would be a 3-channel Sierra-1 set up, but this would exceed your budget. While the Sierra-1s seem to have a lower quality crossover/driver network implemented than the CBM 170 their cabinet seems to have significantly less resonance compared pre-CBM modification. This lowered resonance floor will likely make for a more enjoyable listening experience. So...lets hope Ascend doesn't go out of business .

If you are looking for another alternative that would from a different brand I am at a small loss, but would make this following recommendation as a very distant third to both the Ascend options. Find an older pair of Primus 150 or 160 speakers (not xx2). Modify these in the same method as recommended with the CBM. This will result in a speaker of reasonable quality, but its off axis response will not match that of either Ascend options. Also, even after the modification I have a hunch that the resonant modes within the Infinity cabinet will be more pronounced than that of the either Ascend.

Part of the issue at this price point is there just aren't a lot of high quality options due to the large amounts of sacrifices that must be made in the production process so a company can make any sort of profit. This is why I have been recommending the CBM 170 so strongly it simply has the best crossover and drivers I have seen in this price range with its only limitation being the cabinet. This limitation is easy to overcome while the others are more or less set.

I really wish I could recommend more, but it just isn't fair the Ascend is the clear winner here...

[Sonnie]

What about at a higher budget? After the Sierra's, if you could spend more, what would you go to?

[WmAx]

Sonnie wrote:

What about at a higher budget? After the Sierra's, if you could spend more, what would you go to?

Well, you can go higher in quality, but at what reason for this application? If this is going to be installed in such a limited installation, certainly ideal position and use will not be possible.

But, as to answer.... the two additional significant steps in 2 way bookshelf monopoles, relative to measurable/verifiable characteristics in relation to likely enhance perception based qualities are:

Better: B&W 705: This speaker has excellent linearity, excellent drivers, very good off axis response and somewhat lower resonances as compared to a standard cabinet.

Best: Focal Mini Utopia: This speaker has excellent linearity, excellent driver and very good off axis response, and a nearly inert cabinet system, using a high thickness wall system with lead layers and extensive bracing.

-Chris

[Sonnie]

WmAx wrote:

Well, you can go higher in quality, but at what reason for this application?

As far as the more expensive options, I was mainly curious.

I am having a hard time believing that out of the hundreds of speakers available in this price range that there are not options that are fairly close to the Ascends. But then again, I do realize these have been recommended based on supposedly credible off-axis response measurements and therefore a host of speakers that may be good or even better are quite possibly being left out.

[WmAx]

Sonnie wrote:

As far as the more expensive options, I was mainly curious.

I am having a hard time believing that out of the hundreds of speakers available in this price range that there are not options that are fairly close to the Ascends. But then again, I do realize these have been recommended based on supposedly credible off-axis response measurements and therefore a host of speakers that may be good or even better are quite possibly being left out.

Yes, all recommendations I have made are based on quantified characteristics.

For anywhere near the price, the Ascend model referenced is the best of which I know that has been verified by credible 3rd party(NRC Lab in this case). However, in your particular installation, even this speaker would not be able to be used to it's potential. You could consider something a step down, such as the Infinity Primus series speakers, and save money, if you are happy with the vinyl covered cabinets.The Primus speakers can be had for extremely low prices, and are among the best performers in their respective price ranges of which I am aware. If you do use speakers mounted/set in a cabinet system, use some sort of material to mechanically decouple vibration. I recommend a high ILD high density latex foam, at about 1/2" thickness, covering the entire bottom of the speaker(s). This particular foam will not easily flatten or lose it's compresion properties, even after 10 years. You can find such foam at custom foam places such as foamonline.com. Also, I know for certain the Primus speakers use an acoustic absorption material inside that is useless for the primary bandwidth in which the midbass driver operates. Replace this with a high performance product such as 2" thick OC705 or no. 8 mineral wool board on all walls, perhaps doubling this on the rear wall. Most acoustic foam are worthless, so I don't generally recommend them, unless you get a verified high grade foam such as Auralex. If you used Auralex, I would suggest using 2 layers of 2" wedge foam and gluing them face to face to create a solid thicker piece for maximum effective use. It also would do some good to apply a 1/3" thick in layers of Peel N' Seal or similar material(Dynamat) to the interior walls to reduce delayed energy amplitude by some degree.

-Chris

[Sonnie]

Most likely I will go with the Ascends, but it's not chiseled in stone yet. The cabinet guy came by last night and we are pretty excited about the addition and he says he can have it done in a few days. The verdict is still out until he calls with a price today.

As far as the Dynamat... this that I have is the Extreme Dynamat and it has a foil backing. Is that a problem?

[avaserfi]

Sonnie wrote:

Most likely I will go with the Ascends, but it's not chiseled in stone yet. The cabinet guy came by last night and we are pretty excited about the addition and he says he can have it done in a few days. The verdict is still out until he calls with a price today.

As far as the Dynamat... this that I have is the Extreme Dynamat and it has a foil backing. Is that a problem?

Good to hear. I have only handled Peal N Seal before, but from what I can see the Dynamat you mentioned should work well too.

[WmAx]

Sonnie wrote:

As far as the Dynamat... this that I have is the Extreme Dynamat and it has a foil backing. Is that a problem?

Dynamat will work fine. It is very similar to Peel N' Seal in effectiveness. The main difference is that Dynamat has an adhesive designed to bond in higher temperatures, for example, when attached to the trunk lid of a black car in the middle of summer. This probably equates to 140 degree or higher temperatures. In this case, the Peel N' Seal may release; it's glue is not designed to hold upside down in such high temperatures.

Realize that you will have to use several layers of Dynamat in order to get a sufficiently thick application to have substantial resonance decay action(s). In the range of 5 layers can be expected. The general rule for applying materials similar to Dynamat to wood based paneling for maximum effects is to apply the dampening in at leat 1/3 the thickness of the wood. 1/2 thickness is the maximum. Exceeding this amount, and you will gain very little increase in dampening performance. To have greater performance requires a constrained layer damping system, which is not easily done in a modification to an existing speaker. But it can be done.

Do you have the appropriate acoustic dampening materials(OC705 or #8 Mineral Wool Board)? Do you plan to use these?

-Chris

[Sonnie]

WmAx wrote:

Do you have the appropriate acoustic dampening materials(OC705 or #8 Mineral Wool Board)? Do you plan to use these?

No I don't have either of these, but I'm thinking I can get some at our building supply down the road.

[WmAx]

Sonnie wrote:

No I don't have either of these, but I'm thinking I can get some at our building supply down the road.

One last detail: When you install the first layer of Dynamat or similar, heat the adhesive side that bonds to the wood/MDF surface in the cabinet with a heat gun. This will insure a high quality bond that will endure. I have found that the adhesive can sometimes let loose after a time period if used cold, when bonding to the wood/MDF surface.

-Chris

[Sonnie]

Okay... the entertainment center is in and I did some painting tonight. Still a while away from using it since I have to finish painting it and the let it set for a few days to completely dry.

I think I have pretty much decided on the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 Reference Monitors. They are a stretch past my budget, but they come in piano black and extend much lower than their smaller sibling. Hopefully with the LCR set up, we won't need a sub. Off-axis measurements look pretty good as well.



I need to decide on the receiver now, but it's looking like one of the Onkyo's may do it for me. I'm wondering if the upconversion in one of the higher end models would do anything for my Dish Network SD 480i image? Those models do get quite expensive though.

[avaserfi]

Congrats on the purchase. The Sierra 1's perform very well for their price point.

As far as getting an upscaling receiver versus a non-upscaling one (Onkyo 805 versus 875). I am a proponent of not spending a considerable amount of money on buying an upscaling chip. When my dad was in the market for a new receiver he was dead set on upscaling unit (the 875 in fact). I took him to a dealer and we compared the 805 and 875 on regular SD TV signal and there ended up being a slight difference which isn't surprising, but he decided it wasn't worth at least spending another $600.

I think this is a decision you can only make yourself, but it is important to remember SD is on its way out right now and upscaling will become less and less important.

[Sonnie]

That is a good point... most of our favorite channels on Dish are already HD on DirecTV and it's my understanding Dish will be adding those channels in HD soon. If they don't, we'll be swapping to DirecTV. Either way I suppose I can survive for a few months to a year with what we've had.

In that case, I'm not sure I even need the 805... but then again, those Sierra's are a tough load, although I want be pushing them hard at all. Still the 805 looks like it has some nice features over the 705 and 605... plus it specs better.

[tonyvdb]

Sonnie, The 805 is a big step up from the 705 and in my humble opinion is the best receiver out there bang for buck. I have not had one issue with mine and is worth every penny. The THX ultra certification is something that I highly recommend as its stable to 3.2ohms. The 805 also has Burr Brown DAs
It also makes a great pre/pro if you decide to go that route in the future.