New system for the great room...

[Sonnie]

Now that we have the new Samsung 61" LED DLP in the great room, it's time to get a small non-invasive system to accompany the new display. My wife has commented that the sound on the DLP is lacking tremendously compared to our former Toshiba big screen. Of course she has wanted larger speakers for a while now for when she listens to the digital music channels.

This great room system needs to be simple and inexpensive as possible. We are not looking for anything that will blow us away. I don't even really care for surround, just front LCR and a receiver. The center will be placed on the top shelf of the display stand and therefore is limited to a maximum height of 6".

The only source right now is a Dish Network ViP622 receiver. However, when the Samsung dual hi-def player comes in for the HT room, I'll move the Toshiba XA2 to the great room.

I prefer floorstanding mains so that I want have to worry with stands, but I'm not going to totally rule out the use of stands.

For the center I'm considering the Yamaha NS-C125PN 2-Way Bass Reflex Center Channel Speaker System (Piano Black) for $100 shipped.



This center will fit easily within the 6" shelf space since it's a little under 4" tall.

For the fronts I'm considering the matching Yamaha NS-125FPN 2-Way Bass Reflex Tower Speakers (Piano Black) at $150 shipped.



I like that these are small/slim and will not be intrusive, plus they are piano black which will match the piano black bezel around the DLP display. $250 for a LCR setup seems cheap enough. Obviously though, with these only sporting 3" woofers, the response is going to be extremely limited. I'll need a very small sub and Yamaha hasn't long released something that I think will work perfectly and will fit in with the equipment easily.

Yamaha YST-FSW150BL Advanced YST II Down-Firing Active Subwoofer and it appears Dell surprisingly has this for $160 shipped.



This sub should fit on my display shelving with my components and keep me from having a sub box on the front wall.

Of course all of the above are merely what I've found thus far that seems like a good fit. Total in the speakers is $410.

Receiver wise... the least expensive unit that will pass 1080p HDMI appears to be the Onkyo TX-SR505 7.1 Channel Home Theater Receiver (Black) for $263 shipped.



$673 for this system is really more than I want to spend so I may end up having to opt for a HTIB system. Or maybe consider better towers with 6.5" woofers and fore go a sub since we're not looking for thunder or boom.

Suggestions and recommendations are welcomed!

[MrPorterhouse]

For extreme value, the Onkyo HTIB's are about as good as they come.
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=...ss=Systems&p=s
The center is almost 7" in height, so this system may not work, but it should fit the bill for cost and performance.

[tonyvdb]

Sonnie, you of all people should know that spending just a bit more is a huge step up but I agree that the Onkyo HTIB systems cant be beat. and the best part is you dont have to upgrade the receiver even if you replace the speakers down the road.

[Captain Crunch]

tonyvdb wrote:

Sonnie, you of all people should know that spending just a bit more is a huge step up but I agree that the Onkyo HTIB systems cant be beat. and the best part is you dont have to upgrade the receiver even if you replace the speakers down the road.

[Captain Crunch]

AV123 x-sls Tower Loudspeaker
and no one has to tell you sonnie about SVS!

Used x-sls or a used svs set up ......cough cough hint hint!!

[Sonnie]

I would go with the SVS setup, but the center won't work and it's a little more than I want to spend. Not to mention I'd probably need a sub with those. I haven't checked out the x-sls speakers, but I'll look at them.

[Sonnie]

What a difference a few days makes... the Shack store drops the price on the Onkyo 505 to $239 shipped and Matt posts his review on the Yambeka Audio Speaker System.

I'm thinking about ordering up both, we may have something going on in our great room in a few days.

[Sonnie]

Things have changed drastically... just like that. The wife now wants a larger display... the 61" is not big enough, so we sold the 61" to my brother and we will be getting the 67" when it is released hopefully soon. In the meantime we are still using the 61" for a while until my brother gets his place.

I did go ahead and order the Onkyo receiver and the Yambeka speakers for him. They will work very nicely for him. However, I don't think we will want tower speakers with what we are about to do now. Most likely we will go with the same receiver as I ordered my brother. I have actually thought about stepping up to the 875 just for the Reon processor, but that's a lot of money for a receiver in our great room. I would only want the processor if it improves satellite pictures, otherwise there would be no need for the expense.

The wife now wants the full entertainment center that she has wanted for quite some time. I suppose we are going to move ahead and build it now, so things may change a little on what system we get.

Here's the plans for the entertainment center...



We may end up doing some cabinets down low... this is not final by any means, just tentative plans.

This attaches to the corner hutch that we use to use for our equipment rack several years ago before we built the dedicated HT room. The entire front wall will be filled with one big massive shelving system.

Here's an old picture of where the above will go...




The great room is big... huge... 20' x 22' or something like that... with lots of door openings and 10' ceilings. No place for acoustical treatments, not to mention the WAF. Keep in mind though, we are not looking for blasting the windows out sound. We simply want to improve on the TV sound, which is horrendous in these slim DLP displays. The wife listens to some music channels all along and the TV speakers just don't cut it for her.

I suppose the most important feature we will be looking for is good dispersion since the seating is so spread out, therefore the most important decision will be for the speakers. I suppose we will most likely be looking at bookshelf speakers now. I just don't see towers fitting in the entertainment center. The shelves will be adjustable, but the wife is not going to want speakers taking up that much room. Bass is not in the picture because she does not like the rumbling type sound. Whatever the bookshelf speakers will do will most likely be fine. 40-50Hz shouldn't bother her too much and should keep us happy enough with bass for this room. No doubt that will be better than TV speakers anyway.

The center will no longer be as limited as it was before because we can place it on the adjustable shelf just above the TV. Height should not be nearly the issue it was before.

I'm going to be considering my bookshelf and center options for now. Budget is probably somewhere around $1000 or less for the front three speakers. I do have access to quite a few brands at cost... and I am not against buying used from Audiogon and similar.

I would like to have several options to choose from... if you have any, I'm listening.

[avaserfi]

Are you planning on having a subwoofer in this setup? If not what are you looking for in terms of LFE from a bookshelf?

Lastly, would your wife allow a Behringer processing unit (DCX2496) in your great room?

edit: One more thing - would you be opposed to modifying a speaker slightly? Some minor woodworking skill would be required for certain mods while others would require access to a heat gun.

[Sonnie]

No sub... wife doesn't care for the rumble and how the bass travels through the house. Probably 40-50Hz with the bookshelves will be ample.

The Behringer probably would not match too well... and would probably make things more complicated than I want to get in the great room. Same with woodworking on speakers. I don't want to go quite that far, but some simple modification I don't mind. It would be nice if we could find something that is plug 'n' play, if you know what I mean.

[avaserfi]

Sonnie wrote:

No sub... wife doesn't care for the rumble and how the bass travels through the house. Probably 40-50Hz with the bookshelves will be ample.

What if the sub was used in conjunction with the bookshelves and easily fit in the bottom area of the shelfing you are planning? This will substantially increase sound quality and would not be used for a deep LF, but rather for a more balanced sound.

Sonnie wrote:

The Behringer probably would not match too well... and would probably make things more complicated than I want to get in the great room. Same with woodworking on speakers. I don't want to go quite that far, but some simple modification I don't mind. It would be nice if we could find something that is plug 'n' play, if you know what I mean.

The modifications would not be mandatory, but would increase sound quality more specifically midrange clarity greatly. As far as the Behringer unit goes it would not necessarily be needed as well, but again would greatly increase sound quality due to its built in parametric EQ as well as its crossover functions. It would allow for complete integration of the proposed sub as well as treble roll off to user preference. Since I have already started on my recommendations I will post them anyways and let you think about it while I search for other alternatives.

My recommendations for this room will likely be vastly different than the typical, but will likely result in the highest fidelity possible within your price range. First the recommendations:

3x Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE - About $550 (Perhaps cheaper if they are still on sale)
1x (2x would be ideal) Dayton Sub-100s - About $125 each
1x Behringer DCX2496 - About $270

Total is $945 with one sub and $1070 with two.

Justifications:

The CBM-170s (Measurements can be found here) have an extremely linear response on the range played. This is due to the high quality crossovers and drivers used (I speculate even higher quality than found in the Sierra-1). You will also note the off-axis response of these speakers closely matches the on-axis this will give a wider sweet spot as well as superior imaging. Also, this speaker wouldn't be too hard to drive, thus a regular receiver such as the Onkyo 805 you mentioned would be more than sufficient.

The largest issue with this speaker would be cabinet resonance as it is with most all commercially made and DIY speakers. To combat this I would recommend some minor to drastic modification. Depending on your skill level you might want to choose a lower level modification which will have less substantial impact on sound quality. Please do note that once these modifications are performed you will likely have made your speakers "worthless" for resale. Since you are not entirely interested in modifying these speakers I will only go into this subject if asked as far as an extremely easy modification I would recommend removing the drivers and lining the insides with OC705 or 8lb Mineral board to reduce standing wave issues.

The Dayton Sub-100 is recommended for a few reasons. Firstly it is fairly compact and will fit within the cabinet you are planning quite easily and secondly proper integration (x-over around 100hz) of this subwoofer with the bookshelves would greatly increase perceived sound quality by allowing the bookshelves to 'focus' more on the higher frequencies. The reason two is recommended is due to stereo use as they would ideally be within a few feet of the bookshelves themselves. Due to the nature of the situation I would say you can get away with one.

While the recommended bookshelves are able to get down to 50Hz they will not be able to do it with great dynamic range due to their size. The subwoofer will allow for a greatly increase dynamic range of the low end as well as possible allowing for less distortion in the midrange.

The DCX2496 is recommended because it is simply the swiss army knife of the audio world. It will allow for perfect integration of the subwoofer(s) with the bookshelves as well as equalization for ideal response. Another issue is I only recommend speakers with a linear frequency response. Perceptual research has shown that preference of treble response lays with a gradual roll off. Rather than having a passive approach to this I recommend the Behringer unit so the ideal response can be attained. I recommend a high-shelving filter at 4kHz 6db/oct slope so it is -2dB at 10KHz, but this can change depending on preference as well as hearing loss due to various factors. In any case having a linear speaker allows for equalization towards virtually any frequency response desired. Since you say this might increase complexity too much I would offer to help program the DCX for you. Also, the unit does not need much airflow so it could be possible to hide it in a cabinet. As far as cables go if needed I can make them for you as well. Also, since your wife doesn't care for reaching too low the DCX could be used as a filter to stop frequencies that go below her tastes on the sub while still maintaining the wanted frequencies and full dynamics.


Let me know how much I have stepped out of the bounds of the WAF as well as your comfort zone. I am confident full implementation of this recommendation would yield the highest quality sound for the money you want to spend. Loudspeaker modification would be the next step along with room treatments, but I can fully understand not wanting to take those steps.

[WmAx]

While avaserfi's recommendations of the CBM170 speakers, stereo subs and a DCX2496 are of value, one thing that must be additionally considered is that the average surround receiver will not allow proper use of the DCX processing unit. This is because the DCX must be inserted between both the sub amplification stage and main speaker amplification stage. Doing with with separate power amplifiers is easy. The problem, of course, is cost. You would have to buy a separate power amp in addition to the surround receiver, and use the surround receiver as only a pre-amp unit(assuming it has pre-amp outs). If you only wanted stereo, then stereo receivers are fare more likely to have a bypass loop(pre amp output with direct amp input that can be used simultaneously).

-Chris

[avaserfi]

WmAx wrote:

While avaserfi's recommendations of the CBM170 speakers, stereo subs and a DCX2496 are of value, one thing that must be additionally considered is that the average surround receiver will not allow proper use of the DCX processing unit. This is because the DCX must be inserted between both the sub amplification stage and main speaker amplification stage. Doing with with separate power amplifiers is easy. The problem, of course, is cost. You would have to buy a separate power amp in addition to the surround receiver, and use the surround receiver as only a pre-amp unit(assuming it has pre-amp outs). If you only wanted stereo, then stereo receivers are fare more likely to have a bypass loop(pre amp output with direct amp input that can be used simultaneously).

-Chris

Very true. I didn't think of that although with the current cost of capable HDMI 1.2 receivers it is likely that a sufficient 2 channel amp could be purchased along side a receiver that is last years model for a price similar to the Onkyo 805. Eventually a small and inexpensive mono block could be purchased for the last unamplified (powered via receiver alone) center channel if it is felt that tonality during movie playback is not equal enough between the stereo speakers and center allowing for even equalization.

Edit: For what its worth with your budget this is exactly how I would spend my own money...

[Sonnie]

Unfortunately I don't think the wife if gonna go for a sub and give up her space. I was lucky to get the the center rack. I told her we pretty much had to have that to put the audio and satellite receivers. I definitely don't want to get into having to have a separate amp. I would rather try to keep this as simple as possible.... and do the best we can with a simple setup.

[avaserfi]

Sonnie wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think the wife if gonna go for a sub and give up her space. I was lucky to get the the center rack. I told her we pretty much had to have that to put the audio and satellite receivers. I definitely don't want to get into having to have a separate amp. I would rather try to keep this as simple as possible.... and do the best we can with a simple setup.

Understood. Any idea the maximum size (HxWxD) the bookshelves can be? If the ability to dynamically reproduce 40-50Hz is required a larger than average bookshelf will likely be wanted.

[Sonnie]

I think we are flexible there... probably no more than 18" tall... probably 10-12" wide and depth doesn't really matter I don't think. The shelf will be about 20-22" deep.

[avaserfi]

Well, upon further review it seems the best option would still be three CBM170s with a slight modification. This would be well under your budget (especially if you went with the refurbished units).

As previously said the cabinets resonance will be the biggest issue. Since you would not want to do complicated wood work I would recommend using Peal N Seal to line the entirety of the inside of the cabinet sans the baffle. If you use this at 1/3 the thickness of cabinet so about 1/4" thick it will reduce the cabinets resonance substantially and will require no wood work as you will just have to take the driver off apply the Peal N Seal and you are golden. Before putting the driver back in I would also strongly recommend placing some OC705 or 8lb mineral board (the cheaper of the two) inside the cabinet while removing all absorptive material previously placed within the cabinet. You might have to play with this dampening slightly as too much can ruin low frequency response. Starting off with 3-4" on the rear wall as well as 2-3" on the bottom of the cabinet would probably be sufficient.

There will be a slightly decreased low frequency response due to these modifications caused by the slightly smaller cabinet volume along side the dampening, but this trade off will be more than worth. This is because these modifications would make the speaker have less coloration due to resonance as well as more detailed, again due to the lowered resonance floor. Also, any standing wave issues should be near complete if not completely removed with the high grade acoustic material.

[Rodny Alvarez]

How about PSB GB1 Monitor,
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/...gn-GB1-Monitor

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