DVD's that no longer work

[rcarlton]

I have been going through my collection of DVD's and found two that no longer work:
Apollo 13
Boogie Nights

They worked when new, cannot get them to run on my old DVD player, new player or on the computer. They were among the first releases of these movies. I recall that another version came out shortly after these. Could it have been a bad pressing? Or is there such a thing as DVD rot?

[Josuah]

Yes, DVDs will not last forever (I'm assuming they're not scratched up). To keep longer, you should keep them stored vertically (I've heard), closed in their cases, and in a cool, dry environment. Don't expose them to quick changes in environment.

You can read more in the CD and DVD Care and Handling Guide from NIST.

[rcarlton]

My DVD's are always stored in their cases, vertically in a temperature controlled environment. These DVD's had no scratches or fingerprints. They seemed to have a "gold" color when looked at from the side.

[Phil M]

Ron, I've seen reports on DVD degradation in the past - related to raw materials or production problems. As DVD's cost a few pennies to stamp I always thought it would be a positive gesture for the publishers to do an exchange - send your old disc back as proof of ownership and we'll replace it, no need to send the case to keep costs down. Too simple and customer focused to work

[rcarlton]

Agreed. Now I am waiting for the aftermath of the Blu-ray HD-DVD war to step in and replace the discs that no longer work.

[lcaillo]

The gold colored discs are the dual layer type and are normally the ones that players have more trouble reading. I have not experienced the problem that you have, but I would guess it to be morelikely to occur in the DL discs first.

[Rezon_8]

I have a DVD that refuses to play, it has been stored vertically since new, there are no scratches or fingerprints and it has only been played once. Guess which one: Apollo 13, I wonder if this is a coincidence or if there was a problem with this particular DVD.

I have many DVDs older than this title, and they all work fine. I tried Apollo 13 in 3 players, 4 computer dvd drives. Still no joy!!!!

Seems strange to me that a DVD that was stored correctly, played only once, should suddenly stop working.

[rcarlton]

Makes you wonder how many more are like that? Seems odd to me that they came out with a special edition shortly after the copy I have. Ditto for Boogie Nights.

[Vader]

Ron,

I cannot speak to the experiances of others, but here is my take on the whole "DVD/CD Rot" thing (originally posted on HTF):

DVD/CD Rot? The Sky is not Falling
============================
Disclaimer: The following is only a rant provoked by the media coverage of "rot", and is based entirely on my experience. I am in no way contesting the experiences of others (indeed, all of us are stricken by the same love of HT), and I welcome any input or correction.

After reading all of the threads concerning this subject, and then the terribly uninformative and misleading mass media story, I felt the need to inject my $0.02. As you are reading this, there are many, many newbies to our favorite hobby that have invested a great deal of $ into their HT and software libraries, and are going through clean underwear at an unprecedented rate. I know; I also did my share of undergarment soiling in the early 90's when "Laser Rot" came to light. However, combining my own experience with the patterns of "infection" (for lack of a better term), I have reached the following conclusions:

1) After 10+ years of living in LD world, I have only had 2 confirmed cases of "Laser Rot". I believe this to have been a much more widespread problem with LD for several reasons. First, most of my friends would not treat their LDs very well. I remember one instance where we had gathered to watch an LD at a friend's house. He loved eating popcorn covered with tons of butter-flavored grease while watching his movies, and at the side change would grab the disc WITHOUT SO MUCH AS WIPING HIS HANDS OFF, much less washing them. In rental stores I have seen the clerks use WINDEX to shine returned discs (shudder), and most rental discs were returned warped because people leave them in hot cars. Others would stack their discs in a corner (near a heating vent to boot). Warner Bros old LD paper sleeves even had the "safety tip: do not stack discs more than twelve high" (always got a kick out of that one). With LDs, vertical storage was/is crucial due to the size, and more importantly, mass. So, much of the problem stemmed from treatment and storage, but not all...

As with any product produced by man, there are manufacturing and QA issues. AFAIK the acrylic selected for LDs was 10x more hydroscopic than the polycarbonate used for CDs, and thus humidity was a huge factor. The acrylic would absorb water from the atmosphere, which would migrate down to the aluminum, oxidizing it. And improper sealing of the two sides just added to the problem. Even if stored correctly (vertically) in a low humidity environment, if some air was trapped between the sides, or if the edges were not completely sealed, it was only a matter of time before "rot" settled in. But to the LD faithful, take comfort. If the disc was properly manufactured, and if it has not rotted yet, it probably won't (Star Wars Definitive Collection LD owners, I'm looking at you).

2) After 25+ years of collecting CDs, I have never had one go bad. I store all of them in a rotating carousel stored horizontally. Each CD is kept in its jewel case, and is in its own slot (so they are not touching each other, nor stacked. With CDs, there is insufficient mass (putting on theoretical physicist hat) to allow for any warpage under NORMAL TEMPERATURES (taking off theoretical physicist hat). Then there was the AP article that was written to the general populace by the mass media. We all know how clueless the mass media can be where AV is concerned (Consumer Reports, anyone?). Look at the examples they chose as "proof":

Dude#1 claims that the sudden appearance of pinholes in the CD is evidence of rot, and yet most, if not all, of my CDs exhibit the same thing, and have EVER SINCE THEY WERE NEW. And yet all of my CDs still play flawlessly. If it were a rot issue due to a compromised seal, wouldn't the rot start at the edge and move inwards? Mine were randomly distributed across the aluminum layer.

Dude#2 stores his entire collection in an environment where the temperature has wild swings (40F to 70F in a few hours). 'Nuff said about that one.

I cannot look in my rearview mirror without seeing one of those "visor CD caddy" things. For these people, I would estimate a 110% chance of their libraries going bad: it WILL happen. In general, CD rot among J6P is the rule, due to treatment and storage issues on top of manufacturing and QA. And they are the ones who go whining to the mass media. For those of us who are well learned in the care & feeding of optical media, we only have the risk of improper manufacturing and poor QA to contend with.

3) Finally, in DVD land, the only bad discs I have encountered were either bad from the start, or were "floaters" that were scratched in shipping. I have never had one rot, and there are those in here whose collections dwarf mine who can say the same thing. Needless to say, the oldest of my DVDs is from 1999, so really no conclusions as to longevity can be drawn (yet) based on age. Remember that the general populace is the same as for CDs, so the same observations apply. One of my friends discards the cases and stacks them next to his player (he also runs his RPTV in torch mode and refuses to listen to me... but what do I know?). Another friend breaks DVDs regularly when removing them from the hubs, and handles them by the surface with greasy hands (MOTOR grease, no less). In another thread, it was stated that "rot WILL happen" because it is somehow inherent to the format (some such nonsense that the adhesive WILL chemically break down). My DVDs are stored in the same manner as my CDs, with each being in its case, isolated from the others, in plastic, and away from any heat (as with CDs, horizontal storage is not a problem under normal temperatures). I do not loan them, nor do I borrow or rent. I have not had any rot problems. Am I the only one who sees a pattern here?

At this point, let me state that there are manufacturing and QA issues that even those who treat there collections like children have been stricken with. I know I will encounter rot, eventually, but it will be due to manufacturing and poor QA, not boneheaded storage and treatment. I fully expect most of my library (CD, LD, and DVD) to outlive me for my son; of course, they will be coasters by then because they will be obsolete media, but they will be NICE coasters. I am sure they will have some "super hi-def holographic" format or something like that by then. IMHO, rot is the exception, NOT THE RULE, for those who are conscientious about handling and storage. Again, I want to stress that there ARE exceptions, and I am not refuting the experiences of others. Thanx for reading, and I hope I have lessened the laundry duties of some of the new people.

The scary thing is, unless the QA issues are addressed, they will carry over to HD-DVD, and since it will be much more sensitive to errors, could be much, much worse. Just some food for thought.

On the brighter side of things, maybe the media's misrepresentation of the issue will cause enough unrest among J6P to get the attention of the DVD industry. There may even be some class-action lawsuits ("Honest, your honor; The DVD case never said explicitly that I cannot use disc 2 of the Alien set as a coaster while I watch disc 1"). Maybe that kind of wake up call would improve QA before the next format arrives...

[Josuah]

So, if you purchased a license to the movie, it should be legal for you to make a copy of someone else's movie onto your own DVD to replace your damaged DVD discs.

On the other hand, if you purchased the physical medium and all its bits, then it should be legal for you to do whatever you want with the disc and bits within the confines of copyright.

But then that stupid DMCA got passed. So now you can't do either. I can't wait to see how this affects schools when books fall under the DMCA. "No, you can't photocopy that page because your friend lost her book." "No, you can't read the science textbook on the Apple reader, only on the Microsoft reader. But the English textbook can only be read on the Apple reader, and you have to buy a different copy if you also want it available on your Sony handheld reader."

[Vader]

if you purchased the physical medium and all its bits, then it should be legal for you to do whatever you want with the disc and bits within the confines of copyright.

Exactly. Bill Gates started this "you are not buying the software, but only licensing it" nonsense. Now the movie studios are picking up on it. Lemme get this straight: If we are simply purchasing a license to view a movie, then technically the copyright holder can revoke that license, right? And that they could show up on my doorstep and demand the DVD I paid for back? I would pay real money to see them try. If I believe that Val Kilmer looks better as Bruce Wayne with a Doc Holiday mustache, then I have every right to burn the legally bought "Batman Forever" DVD to my HD, put a CGI mustache on Kilmer, and back to DVD-R. After I hand over my credit card, the studios are out of the loop, totally. I am constrained by copyright only in that I can do nothing that would in any way deprive the studio of any potential profit, monetary or otherwise.

[FlashJim]

I'm all for making backup copies of DVDs. I have kids that love movies just as much as I do. When I get a movie I make a copy and we watch that instead of the original. For everything but showing off the HT setup, this is perfect. I don't worry about scratched or broken discs.

[bobgpsr]

Josuah wrote:

...But then that stupid DMCA got passed. So now you can't do either...

In my opinion the DMCA is one of those "bad" laws that make a lot of people scofflaws. It seems more reasonable to be able to make a personal backup copy than to drive 5 mph over the speed limit. At least Microsoft did listen to these complaints and is working hard to create Mandatory Managed Copy in the new AACS standard.

Bob

[Josuah]

Of course, Managed Copy still allows the publisher to control everything about that copy. It's a placating move that doesn't make me feel any better, and only further allows the new paradigm to become the status quo.