New video camera

[jwhite8086]

can someone recommend a good video camera for about $1000 maybe more

[Sonnie]

I don't know much about camcorders but these look like pretty good deals:

Sony HDR-SR7 AVCHD 6.1MP 60GB High Definition Hard Disk Drive Camcorder with 10x Optical Zoom at $999 shipped.

JVC Everio GZHD7 3CCD 60GB Hard Disk Drive High Definition Camcorder with 10x Optical Image Stabilized Zoom at $1008 shipped.

[tonyvdb]

Make sure that the camera has "optical" image stabelisation not digital the two Sonnie mentioned are nice cameras.
Personally the JVC is a nicer unit.

[mrstampe]

We're shopping around for an HD video camera as well. With a newborn at home, and Christmas deals all around, it's the best time to buy. In my short time on the Shack, I've rarely found cheaper deals outside of the HTS Electronics Store... But, if you're interested in the JVC mentioned above, it's on sale for $550 with free s/h from two stores:

http://www.shopcartusa.com/P_JVC_Eve.../?ic_campID=98


We might be picking up one of these ourselves! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!

[jwhite8086]

Thanks I may have to settle for that one too all the ones I really like are over $4000. anyone know whitch camera gets closest to profesional without the pro pricetag

[mrstampe]

After much research and contemplation, I went with the Canon HV20. I thought I wanted the convenience of HDD (hard disk drive), but it turns out the compression formats tend to lose precious detail and they are much more difficult to edit on the PC. Everyone I've talked to raves about the standardized HDV cassette format. Several reviews have put the HC20 at the top of the consumer line.

HV20 Review
HD Camcorder Shootout conclusions
Digital Trends HV20 review
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/digital.../vc_canon_hv20

MSRP is around $900. It's a little less in the brick-n-mortar stores. Most online store have it at $550-680, but two actually still have it on sale for $450 with free s/h! link

Maybe I'll post a review thread when it comes in.

[tweeksound]

I'd love a review.
Glad you found something that works for you.
Compression is never a good thing unless it's truly lossless or dynamic compression

And the HV20 has an optical Image Stabilizer as tonyvdb recommended.

If you want, you can make up a 50 - 300 MB sample movie, send it to me via SENDSPACE.COM and I'll host it so folks can DL it and see what the quality is like!. I've got a bunch of space just wasting away

Have fun!

[mrstampe]

tweeksound wrote:

If you want, you can make up a 50 - 300 MB sample movie, send it to me via SENDSPACE.COM and I'll host it so folks can DL it and see what the quality is like!.!

It's a deal!

[jwhite8086]

The canon looks like the one I need

[jlames]

The camera you need, if I may humbly interject, needs to be selected on the basis of your interest. Canon has the advantage in the consumer market of autofocus. The problem with that, amongst others, is the lag time and the fact that its a servo unit which means you'll never get the precise results you need for HD. Standard Definition is another matter because the image clarity doesn't approach HD and so you have alot of "slop"or room for error because you're never really in focus compared to the focus you can achieve with an HD camera. If you can tell me what the bulk of your shooting will be and how far you want to take your avocation, I would be happy to recommend the best consumer, pro-sumer or professional camera for your needs based on 23 years of experience and the reasons why the selection would be made. I'm new to the board so I offer my assistance with the utmost humility. Also, we began a free website for independent filmmakers that currently averages 60,000 downloads a week. The :30 minute, on-set interviews are with some of the most noted cinematographers, gaffers, DPs, grips and, well, you name it, in the industry from shows we work. Filmmaking, whether it's personal for your family or semi-professional as an independent producer, is an haunting pursuit and pretty soon you find yourself wanting to get exactly what's in your mind's eye down to tape or dick. Education is the only way to do this and if you'd like to improve your "eye", there are decisions you have top make before you buy your first camera. There are assets and drawbacks to every camera so before you plunk down your hard-earned money, my humble advice to you is to decide what you want to shoot and how far you want to take it.

[jwhite8086]

jlames wrote:

The camera you need, if I may humbly interject, needs to be selected on the basis of your interest.

What camera do you recommend jlames

[jlames]

As I said, it really depends on what your ultimate plans are. Kiddie-cams are kiddie-cams HD or SD and take great "pictures" but fall into the "consumer", point-and-shoot market. The XL1 is a great example of a Standard Definition (SD) "pro-sumer" with the ability to change lenses and make internal modifications via a limited menu and the JVC HD 100 does the same thing in the HD arena as does the Canon in the "pro-sumer" (professional/consumer) arena but you have to separate consumer pictures from Pro-sumer photography from professional cinematography. We shot an entire western sports series for cable, Mounted Shooting, using six JVCs because in the right hands, a JVC or any 1/3" HD camera can get the jub done but you have to understand WHY it gets the job done. The eye sees only in two dimensions; width and height. You have to create the third dimension depth, using the functions of the camera and the two most important aspects to creating depth is light and color. Light is defined as "latitude or the number of "stops" between total black and total white. The more shades of gray you have to work with, the better you can define depth and that means realism and drama. Unfortunately, one of the factors in latitude is CCD chip size and the 1/3" CCDs found in the prosumer JVCs and Canons, if you know what you're doing, can provide 6 or so stops of latitude or change between black and white. The Sony XDCAM, a 1/2" chip can provide 9 and a 2/3" chip like the Panasonic or Sony pro series can produce 11 stops. Now, these can be stretched to more stops but you have to know how to do it through the menu settings. If you'[ve ever noticed the "flat" look of today's television offerings, that's latitude. It's a combination of light and the lens and camera that handle it that contributes to depth, that and color and how it affects the medium which goes to chip size and depth of field which is a function of lens/camera and chip size. Directors manipulate where your point of attention is at any given moment. An example is when the background and/or foreground is out of focus and the subject, perhaps a speaking charagter, is in focus. This draws the viewers' attention to where the Director wants it. You can't do that with video (without assistance from a Pro35 or the like). So you see, it's like being a doctor. There's so much knowledge from different sources you need to draw from to formulate a correct conclusion that "which camera do you recommend" is a difficult question to answer. Through the other boards, I get so many statements that amount to, "well, so-and-so has inter-changeable lenses so it must be best. And my question is, "How many times do you actually change lenses; how many lenses do you have and finally, what would prompt your change lenses not to mention that, unless you're using a 2/3" camera or a 1/2" with an adapter, there aren't that many lenses out there. Finish it off with the fact that most quality lenses cost more than the camera itself and the questions become even more silly. The principle lens we shot "El Papel", our recent pilot, with was a $65k Fujinon "George Lucas" lens. It's a very specific lens with medium depth of focus that requires exact measurements be taken between the subject and the focal plane not to mention the distance betwen the set dressing and focal plane. I don't say this to be arrogant but rather to articulate the importance of knowing what you're doing to achieve your ultimate expectations. If you're interested in creating lasting memories that replicate the then-current situation, don't have alot of experience and want to hide imperfections like facial blemishes and wrinkles on the subjects, stay with standard definitions and find a Canon XL1. They're cheap and easy to find and acquire. If on the other hand you want to get into HD and have the time to spend on learning the basics of cinematography, the new Sony EX1 or the JVC HD 100 (I know, the 250 is out but the 100 is enough right now and it's less expensive) might be for you. Just stay away from the kiddy-cams. The results will look like prom footage from a cell phone. Cinematography isn't rocket science. It's fun and it's logical and you'd be surprised at the results you'll see in your work product. We shoot educational productions through 2nd Unit where non-professionals get hands-on experience and education on all the things I've spoken of here and it might be beneficial for you. You're always invited to work the crew if you're in the area. Finally, I almost forgot; lighting is equally important as is a good CALIBRATED monitor. The eyepiece nor the flip-out LCD on the camera don't represent accurately what the camera is seeing. Get good, quality lighting or rent it; 5600 for daylight (white) and 3200k for indoor (yellow or incandescent). Nothing looks worse than over- or under-lit scenes and this is where latitude comes into play. Your camera, lens and lighting have to work in concert to have shots gradually fall off into black giving the impression of depth. Take a look at your favorite TV shows and see how many times the character is lit such that 1) half his face is lit and the other half subtly falls off into the dark background or 2) half his face is lit and the other half quickly turns into inky blackness. The background of a scene, any scene whether it's on film or in your home, rarely just becomes inky black. The eye perceives 16.7M shades of color but only 16 shades of gray. The eye compensates by "blending" colors to create other shades of gray. Thus, a common image enhancement technique is to assign specific digital number (DN) values (or ranges of DN values) to specific colors, thereby increasing the contrast of particular DN values with the surrounding pixels in an image. An entire image can be converted from a gray scale to a color image, or portions of an image that represent the DN values of interest can be colored so the camera can create thousands of gray colors to emulate what the eye-brain combination creates and we perceive which is exactly what photography is all about anyway. This is where things like "latitude" come in and a quality image block or prism come into play in the more expensive, larger CCD/CMOS chip cameras but that's a discussion for another day. For now, suffice to say 1) Stay away from $700 hand-held kiddy-cams, 2) decide where you want your photography to be a year from now and 3) decide if you want HD or can settle for SD imaging. An important note here is that analog vs. digital has nothing to do with HD vs. SD. It's all digital.

[mrstampe]

jlames wrote:

As I said, it really depends on...

Wow! Your experience and advice will be a huge asset in this forum. You should definitely think about starting some focused threads to discuss some of the many topics mentioned in you last post. I think one thing is for certain: there are widely different levels of equipment and expectations when in comes to capturing video.

In addition to the camera, lenses, lighting and endless number of settings that must be made for a quality shot, I'm sure some other operator-specific factors play at least as big a role in quality. Perspective, framing, panning, stability, timing, transitions, and countless other skills undoubtedly contribute at least as much to the outcome as the equipment.

IMHO, your description of what is "necessary" to achieve an "acceptible" video seems intimidating and kind of skewed toward professional videography/cinematography applications. I'm sure that independent film makers need to heed all of your warning and go with the best equipment they can afford. And, everyone else can learn lessons from your professional experience to apply to their needs -- the other 95% of video camera owners.

I bet your "prom footage from a cell phone" comment was likely more for effect than an accurate description, but your points are well taken.

Personally, I'm not ready to carry a lighting kit and spend more time planning a scene and programming my camera than I'll spend enjoying the moment and recording decent images. After I review the Canon HV20 "kiddy-cam", I'll post some shots. It seems that auto/manual focus in HD will be my biggest concern. If it turns out that I need to upgrade, fine.

No intension to hijack the thread... just wanted to make a few points as an interested party.

[jlames]

Hijacking! Don't be ridiculous. You bring up some good points. Of course that has to be expected from a Mizzou Tiger. By the way, congrats on the Cotton Bowl romp! It just goes to prove what I and the rest of America thought; you should have been in the Orange or Fiesta Bowl. But who hasn't been screwed by the BCS lately?

Anyway, of course both the "kiddie-cam" and "prom footage" comments were certainly "for effect" but with merit. First, the HV20 is far from a kiddie-cam and second, with what's available out there, that percentage of "everyone else" is dropping every day. There's this mis-perception, granted, perpetuated by virtually every company that touches video in any way, that "this" camera or "that" lens are the key to "unlocking your true potential". Rubbish. They're all simply tools and I couldn't agree more with your, "Personally, I'm not ready to..." statement. That's what amateur, and I use that term respectfully, photography should be all about BUT the more you know about natural, available light as well as, yes, "perspective, framing, panning [and] stability" and the limitations of whatever camera you settle on, HV20 or Panavized F-900, the better your natural photography will turn out. Without an educated eye, the tools are nothing. Have you ever seen a Phillips screw head after someone tried to use the corner of a flat-head screwdriver to loosen it!? Like everything, it's all about education.

I don't want to take up alot of space but this forum is so full of wonderful information that I think it's important for anyone who cares enough to buy the best home theatre assets to also understand how what they're hearing or seeing is created. If the forum wasn't comprised of decidedly educated people, I wouldn't bother I think understanding is important and here's a great example of just how important education is.

Someone who, for obvious reasons will remain nameless, wrote, relative to the exact camera you're using, the following:

"I received the camera at night and couldn't wait to experiment with it... Let me just say I was totally disappointed with it that night.. The video I was getting was VERY grainy while taking video in my living room... I knew it wasn't the best in dark areas, but this was bad... The room has one lamp with a 75 watt bulb. After playing with the features to make sure I wasn't doing anything wrong, I told myself I either had a defective camera or my TV was doing some kind of digital correction to the camera's output.

The next day I had a totally different opinion of the camera. I brought it outside took some video and back in the house... It was a total different experience. The video was the best I've seen... Unbelievable detail and clarity.... I went back in the room I was having trouble with the night before and the video was also very good. The small amount of light coming through the windows made a HUGE difference... It was not grainy at all....

Anyway, I've gone from just about bring it back to keeping it.... The biggest

thing to remember with this camera is that it doesn't like darkness.

There's just so much I could say about this account. But, to be nice, let's just say 1) no camera likes darkness but if you understand what darkness is, you can get unbelievable results with your camera and 2) like everyone knows, when all else fails, RTFM! It's not about merely understanding that things have limitations but rather what makes those limitations and then getting the most out of your equipment given those limitations. Or I guess you could just walk into the dark and then say your pictures suck.

[jwhite8086]

Maan, Preach on brother, I realy knew I wanted $4,000 camera, now I know I want a $10,000 camera .

I bought A Nikon D-80 for the same reasons, but even thats not great if you dont use the lense and light properly.

I really do want one of the cameras like you have or have played with, I also want a Bugatti Veyron a 4 story mansion 3 wives, but what I "need" what I "want" and what I can afford are completely different things... I need to win the Lottery

Is the Canon the best "kiddie-cam" for the money, and is there any way to make one of the "kiddie-cams" not look grainy in a low light shot

[jlames]

Not really. What you need is experience and a chance. Let's take the JVC 100HD for example. If you go to dvxuser.com or dvinfo.net, you'll find a number of people who are selling their 100s so they can afford 250s for pennies on the dollar. Why I don't know but they are but more importantly, there are a great number of people there who can help you including me. I'm sure you'll find one in your price range. Or I'll loan you one to use for a while and then you make the decision. I started 2nd Unit to make a difference in people's lives; a difference that begins with education and never ends as long as I have the 2 hands God gave me. One holds on and the other reaches out to help others. If you can make it, we're shooting portions of a commercial in the DFW area later this month. We'll make room for you on the crew and teach you about the JVC and a few other aspects of filmmaking that, given your experience, I'm certain you'll pick up on quickly. We'll be shooting with Sony XDCAM 350s as usual using the JVCs as "B" cameras so I'll leave it with you to work with. Use it. Learn it. Get good at it. Understand lighting and optics in motion and you'll see your work improve immeasurably. Then you'll be able to use it to make back the money you'll invest in purchasing one. If you do head over to dvinfo.net, you'll find a story where I once sent a camera to a guy I didn't know in Uraguay because he was in the jungle and his JVC went inop. JVC couldn't help him and he was running out of time so I sent him one to use. People on the board thought I was nuts until I explained that there was really no downside for me. If he didn't return it, everyone would know what the price of his integrity was. But if he did return it, he'd have a group of friends behind him forever. The filmmaking community is like that; we all help each other out and so we're all one big, close family. In the end, he sent it back and today he's a part of a very large family. So you see, it's really not about winning the lottery; it's about meeting the right people like all the great people here on this board who take the time to lend their knowledge to whomever needs it asking nothing in return except to be there for them when they need a hand. I see you're a Senior Shackmaster. I don't know what that is but it sounds important and like you've been on the board for awhile. So do the right thing if it feels right. Accept the offer and work with a great camera for a while. It'll pay wonderful dividends in the end. If you think shooting stills is rewarding, wait until a shoot you've written, blocked, lit and shot all comes together. It's a truly indescribable feeling. And besides, if you don't like it, you can always send it back. I have close friend who flies for Delta and he can always toss it on one of his flights and have it back to me in a jiffy.

[jwhite8086]

Wow I love you maan.. really you seem like a great guy. I too like to spread knowledge to whomever asks for it even though to most of them i might as well be speaking an alien language. "them', are coworkers and freinds".

The offer is tempting I work at Hobby Airport

Now that I think of it , what am i going to record ........ohhh...hmm...my kids..and.............

[jlames]

You'd be surprised. Have you ever just looked through the lens of your camera; I mean just pulled over to the side of the road and taken out your camera and just looked through it. (No, not on the freeway!) It limits your view but broadens your perspectives. You see things you've never noticed before. You start thinking about framing and that limits your scope and sharpens you mind and senses. You see things in a whole new way; a cinematographers way and that my friend is a whole new world. Through the lens, be it still or motion picture, there's a whole new world that you discover and when you do, you want to replicate what your mind sees and share it with the world; a world that isn't as fortunate as you are. That;'s when learn that limitations exist only in your mind and you begin to figure ways around them. And that's when you discover that that you've reached the limits of your camera and need to move up. As for the speaking alien language, welcome to the world of cinematography. But there's an indescribable reward waiting for you in giving the gift of expanded horizons to those of whom you speak, co-workers and friends in your work. Be it a movie or television premiere or still photography art show; be it in at a major Hollywood release or in front of friends screening your independent short; be it in a Rodeo Drive gallery or before you sit down for dinner with friends at your home after showing them the pictures you took of your children and proudly display on your hallway walls, I've found little that beats just sitting back and watching the expressions of viewers as they take in your work. So to answer your question, "What would I shoot?" take it from someone who's been seeing things others don't until I shoot it for 23-years now. Carry your camera with you all the time and when you feel the urge, pull over to the side of the road and just look at the world outside thorough the lens. You'll see things you've never seen before and before you know it, you'll be opening others' eyes to that world as well. Believe me, there's no feeling like it in the world...and yes, that includes sex! It's why I still teach and why I still work.

I have a close friend, Kok, who gave up his job to pursue a career in still photography. He's finally starting to be recognized but he too does it for the joy it brings to himself and others. He's at www.dogzenArt.com. Enjoy.
Jonathan

[mrstampe]

Your mission of speading your passion on to others is remarkable. I'm glad you found your way to HTS!

Well, I've had a lot of difficulties with the webstore I used to purchase the Canon HV20. I have canceled that order and am faced with the possibility of repurchasing the HV20 through another store for around $500 or to buy a Canon XH A1 prosumer camera for $1000. This thread, specifically Jonathan's posts, have me thinking more about my goals and camera choice. Just as it was with my beginnings in home theater, my entry into videography will likely leave me looking for the highest quality reasonably obtainable.

This may be of interest to jwhite as a possible good deal... maybe Jonathan can comment on this particular camera, and why certain stores are offering it new for so little compared to others?

Canon XH A1 review
Canon XH A1 purchase link

BTW, even if we deserved better, I'll take the Cotton Bowl for Mizzou anytime. I was there during the sub .500 seasons, when the team only played in the Toilet Bowl! ...hopefully many more good bowls to come.


Thanks.

[jlames]

You've got a great coach and a team that's remarkable. next year should be a revelation and I wish Mizzou all the luck and good fortune hard w