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#1 ·
A few weeks back I started working on a mix called Silver Fire. Silver Fire is a mixture of numerous mica based paints, polyurethane, and a white latex paint. This is my second time mixing up the formula - the first time was one of the original mixes and it had a bad blue/red push. This new mix uses Liquitex artist acrylics. The second time around produced different results from the first via the spectrophotometer. According to the color temp calculated by CalMAN, silver fire comes in 100 points away from D65. But as we've learned over time, this only paints part of the picture for some mixes. The more complicated the application, the more data needed to come to a conclusion. One needs only look at the dnp Supernova review to see what an application that does not have a good spectrophotometer reading can do with a projected image. The Supernova is ISF certified and rightly so. But we're talking about Silver fire. During the process I sampled the base components, the color components, Silver Fire lite (less color component added), and Silver Fire.

Here is the color component



Here is the base



Here is Silver Fire lite



Here is Silver Fire



Here is a reference spectro reading from an X-Rite N5 gray



To go along with this I also took calibration readings from my Silver Fire panel. These readings consist of 0-100IRE grayscale images in increments of 10. It also consists of gamut readings which are 75% white, red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, yellow, and 100% white. The software used for both these readings and the spectro readings above is CalMAN Enthusiast. My spectro is an X-Rite i1pro which has been factory calibrated each fall since I've owned it. For the calibration readings, I use a Colormunki Create colorimeter. Supposedly this colorimeter is much better on the lower end than my i1. But I haven't seen enough to be convinced. I do know that it is much faster at getting the readings.

So without further ado, here is the calibration reading from the silver fire panel



For comparison purposes, here is the reference reading directly from the projector (BenQ w5000)



The things that stick out are that it appears to have a red push to it and the CIE chart shows all of the colors pulling towards red. We also went from a spectro reading that was 100 points higher than D65 to an average color point reading of 70 points less.
 
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#53 ·
So I have a 2' x 2' of BW done. I had my wife look while I when through a few pictures thrown on the screen.

Her verdict: Really couldn't tell a difference. I would have to agree. If one was looking for a jaw dropping/night and day difference, in my experience, I would say it doesn't exist. Eh.... So I went the long way around.

Mech, I will mail you a sample of the BW I did.

BTW to any other people reading: My comparison was by no means scientific nor was it meant to be. You can either see/hear the difference or you can't. I didn't mess around with off axis viewing. To be honest I always will get the straight on seat:devil:
 
#54 ·
Eh.... So I went the long way around.
I think if you recalibrated you'd see the difference, but it if you like what you have now that's all that matters.

Just out of curiosity... how much did you end up spending not counting the boarder frame and velvet. If you bought a sprayer just for this project factor that in too please, along with everything like the syringes you bought, anything that was needed to mix it up.

My BW cost me $13, the typical price most people end up spending is $30 and that even includes the low nap high quality roller covers.

The reason I am asking is if you aren't seeing any difference in performance (however with proper calibration our testing did show a difference, especially with color reproduction and vividness/sharpness-all that poly and mica tends to soften the projected image) I think it is fair to point out the price difference with more than just an 'eh'. From what I have seen myself a person can spend upwards of $80 for everything for SF and that doesn't include the Sprayer or measuring devices. It's at least three times the cost, if a person has to buy the sprayer then it's at least five times the cost.

If it isn't three times the performance, then honestly the 'eh' seems a bit out of place. You literally could have bought two new Bluray movies with the low end price difference. Or a first gen WDTV! When you put things in that perspective, just saying 'eh' isn't enough for me to recommend SF to others just because it is exotic and more complex and 'slightly harder' to make. If it was hands down better, then yes, as much as some would not believe me, I really would recommend it to people. It isn't though and all the data and empirical data has shown that. Even your own comments basically said the same.

jinjuku please don't take any of that as anything negative towards you. As I keep saying as long as you are happy that's all that matters. It doesn't mean that SF is better though and I still maintain that it is harder and more complex just for the sake of being complex.

Don't sweat anything on these forums. Now go enjoy your HT setup and have fun with it. That's all that matters. If I was your contractor though I would have gone a different route but in the end the same result is all that would matter... that you like your setup. If you really don't see a difference, ask XFS if they will give you a rebate towards a free movie or something, it never hurts to ask! ;)
 
#57 ·
There were differences. Examples are greens lightened/brightened up a bit with the BW mix. Blues a little hotter with SF.

Just not an astounding difference. I think we spent a whole 10 minutes before the wife had to go pick up a colleague from the air port. I will have to carve out some time this weekend to play. Any advice is welcome...
 
#62 ·
I understand. It's no big deal for me is the best way to put it. For others: YMMV. Fair enough.

I calibrated the the screen last night with AVIA II. Guess what: There isn't enough correction on the Sanyo to totally get rid of the blue push. Everything else dialed in fine.

I ran through a total of three sessions with the wife in tow (waited 10 minutes between sessions).

I now have to do the same with the BW and save it as user preference two on the PJ. I will let you know...
 
#63 ·
I sprayed a small panel tonight with your SF lite mix j. Actually I sprayed two. The first one ended up getting smudged by accident. :hide: I also finished up several others for a couple of other projects. :T

Your sf lite looks surprisingly similar to my original sf. Have you noticed any graininess or screen artifacts? I could see the mica shimmering on the panels while they were drying. Gonna let them cure until Monday and then I'll get more readings for you.
 
#65 ·
Jinjuku's SF Lite panel measures 9x12". The background screen is an Elite EZFrame with Cinegrey material. Elite has the published gain of their Cinegrey material at 1.0. While I don't have it published anywhere, I have measured it previously at a .9 IIRC.

Projector is BenQ W5000. Camera is an Olympus E-500 set to auto.

This first shot has the SF Lite panel in the middle of the screen. You can make out it's blue push quite plainly. And you can also see that the gain would be about the same as the Cinegrey or slightly higher. The camera is set up in the on axis position at head height.



This is a cropped image of the above. I cropped it outside of photobucket to retain it's quality, and then re-uploaded it.



These next shots are with the panel moving to the left. The camera stayed in the spot on axis.





And cropped:



One with it on the right side of the screen:



You can clearly see that when there is a reference image (which produces a very uniform image), the SF Lite panel loses some of it's punch as you move to the perimeter of the screen. This is a classic example of hot spotting. Normally I would attempt to get the black and white levels adjusted properly for the sample in question, but this sample was pretty much identical to the Cinegrey on axis. So it wasn't necessary. And the sample was a bit small to attempt to do so (I only had 8oz of paint).

These next photos are from two seats over from on axis - ~5 feet over and about 18 degrees or so off axis.













If you look at the first picture in this set you can see that the panel seems to hot spot by itself in that shot. Here's a couple of cropped close ups:





And a cropped shot of the panel on the far side:



And another myth regarding the SF concoctions is that there is no viewing cone. There is usually a couple of off axis shots with no reference in the shot. With no reference, the camera can make anything look good. So here's a few at ~70 degrees off axis:







I don't know about you folks, but that would never fly at my Super Bowl party!

All of my shots were shot in RAW and then processed for white balance within Adobe Bridge utilizing the WhiBal card you see in every shot. They were then saved as jpg's for posting here at the forum.
 
#66 ·
I will be getting more shots of Silver Fire in some upcoming trials. I have three commercial paints that I'm in the process of writing up a review. And I'm doing some extensive work on sheen and the addition of polyurethane. I also mixed up a new Black Widow™ sample for comparison purposes. You can expect more in the coming weeks as always. :T
 
#70 ·
jinjuku's Black Widow

jinjuku also mixed up a Black Widow. Here's the spectro:



Pretty much dead on neutral yet again for the home team.

Another mix that's talked about by the XFS folks is RSMAXXMUD or something like that. Someone sent me a couple pictures of a recent build from this paint. It provides an excellent example of what a projection screen shouldn't look like. ;)



The casual observer would look at the above shot and think "that looks nice". But look closer. Look at the ice and how bright it is in the center of the image and how it grays out near the corners. Classic case of hot spotting and a non-uniform image.

A better way to look at it would be to look at it inverted or the negative image:



:yikes:
 
#73 ·
I'll ask a different way. For the DIY'er, I have an option to purchase a grey screen or a white sheet of black out material. So I am trying to figure out what is being discussed... painting a sheet, or the wall. But I guess it's a panel of some sort.
 
#75 ·
mechman,

I have been reading over lots of DIY screen materials and paints from here and from over at avs. I feel like from what i have read so far your approach to testing and evaluating the screens has been far more profesional and informative than anyone elses.

With that said in your opinion whats the best all rounder DIY screen paint. I know there are a lot of factors to consider but just wondering if you had a favorite.

Thanks
John
 
#76 ·
mechman,

I have been reading over lots of DIY screen materials and paints from here and from over at avs. I feel like from what i have read so far your approach to testing and evaluating the screens has been far more profesional and informative than anyone elses.
Thanks for noticing! Keep in mind that it is not me, it's us - Bill (wbassett), myself, & Don (harpmaker). There were many others along the way as well (too many to name and I'd hate to forget someone), some of which have moved on to bigger and better things.

With that said in your opinion whats the best all rounder DIY screen paint. I know there are a lot of factors to consider but just wondering if you had a favorite.

Thanks
John
A simple off the shelf neutral gray. :T If you need something further, than you can get it with either BW™ or C&S Ultra™.
 
#77 ·
I like my Silverfire screen. don't have much to compare it to however the whole project (screen and Epson 8700) turned out fantastic for me and my family. All who see it are pretty much awed by it. Its way better then the $2000 HD flat screen we bought at Costco a few years ago. i also mixed my Formula to perform better in ambient light which I believe it does.

Just my 2 cents from a newb.
 
#78 ·
Silver fire, when done properly, can perform in varying ways. Color-wise, it's like a box of chocolates - you never know what you're gonna get. Hot spotting is guaranteed. :T

As a newb, I wouldn't expect you to know any of this. When you are only exposed to one way, the wrong way, you have no idea how the right way should look. Some folks do like the bluish push with a brighter center image though. :dontknow: Of course if your screen has been up for a while it could be pushing something other than blue by now. That yellowing polyurethane changes so quickly! :D
 
#79 ·
I'm not sure what hot spotting is but i see nothing that looks funky. Like I said it out performs my 2k plasma from Costco and that is a side by side test and its not even close. I think maybe a good part of the quality of it is the process of using a HVLP and applying several light coats its just a beautiful application of paint and its beautiful and impressive to look at even just hanging there. The other part is I live in Alaska and we get 24 hour sunlight and I can watch this projector at anytime, I have no shades on several of my windows, Bear in mind I have set up right next to it very nice Panasonic Plasma that is a 2k machine so its not like I don't have something to compare it to.

Its the same with audio, I know what sounds good at least to me. I bought some speakers and have upgraded some and in the process of upgrading others. I know what looks good to my eye and the PQ of this set up is not something I"m even considering upgrading on at this time. I actually am still going WOW each time I turn it on and this is one year in.

Is it that ugly looks good to me? or that I can't perceive a clean crisp picture correctly. or that I can watch a washed out projector in a high degree of ambient light while choosing not to watch the alternate 1080p plasma panansonic hooked up to the same system. I just really don't know how much better then WOW I can get. Even the cable tech who was over to fix my box the other day was in awe.

Maybe one day it will turn blue or yellow or which ever color you predict and hot spots will appear all over the screen but now I feel like one happy SOB with my silverfire
 
#80 ·
There are several photos in this thread and the other silver fire threads depicting what hot spotting is - you can see it several posts up. Chances are it already has changed color. The polyurethane yellows fairly quickly.

Being happy is good. Knowing what it should look like is good as well. We've helped a ton of people (numbering somewhere in the hundreds I would guess) fix the problems that silver fire creates. The problem with it is that they preach what cannot be done. :rolleyesno:


If your happy, leave it alone! :T No one's asking you to change it. If you want image fidelity though, that is another story. :huh:
 
#81 ·
When my screen stops making me say WOW. I'll look you up for advice. I made no claim other then I very much like the results of my Silverfire build, that in itself should speak for something. What your saying is its junk and proving it wrong through some tests ect and the ultimate test is how clear and crisp the picture is and how vibrant the colors are and I say again that it beat the pants off my tv that I plunked down several thousand dollars for and that my particular mix also helped me get good results in a room with 6 windows and only 2 shades.

You speak in terms of image fidelity, I speak in terms of man that is a nice crisp clear picture with vibrant colors that is a pleasure to watch. If this was not the case, I'd be searching for something else. At first I had it on a white wall and it was not quite WOW although it was decent in itself

If I felt my picture was not excellent I'd be looking for an alternative that is for certain!
 
#82 ·
When my screen stops making me say WOW. I'll look you up for advice. I made no claim other then I very much like the results of my Silverfire build, that in itself should speak for something.
It says that you like the appearance of your screen and that is all it says. I'm glad your screen works for you. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

What your saying is its junk and proving it wrong through some tests ect...
What we are saying is that through objective testing using instruments and protocols standard to the projection screen industry SF does not measure up to the claims made for it by it's developers. Due to the difficulty of making SF the same each time (many components are used and each one has to be measured, some within less than a milliliter tolerance) there is a wide variance in the appearance of SF screens even of the same version and gray level. Some SF screens ARE junk while others make a passable screen if the viewer likes what they see.

...and the ultimate test is how clear and crisp the picture is and how vibrant the colors are and I say again that it beat the pants off my tv that I plunked down several thousand dollars for and that my particular mix also helped me get good results in a room with 6 windows and only 2 shades.
Clear and crisp pictures and vibrant colors are more an attribute of the projector than the screen, but again, I'm glad your SF screen is performing to your liking.

You speak in terms of image fidelity, I speak in terms of man that is a nice crisp clear picture with vibrant colors that is a pleasure to watch. If this was not the case, I'd be searching for something else. At first I had it on a white wall and it was not quite WOW although it was decent in itself

If I felt my picture was not excellent I'd be looking for an alternative that is for certain!
Image fidelity can actually be measured and means the image reflected off of the screen has the same visual attributes as the image striking the screen. That is what the D65 standard is all about.

SF is a gray screen mix that can be made anywhere from almost white to quite a dark gray. With any appreciable amount of ambient light in the HT during viewing ANY screen darker than white would produce a better image than a white screen.
 
#83 ·
OK,
Send me your recommended mix recipe I will make another screen identical except for the paint. I'll ask people who are consumers just like me some simple questions:

What one do you like better? Which one has the better picture? I'll give you my opinion too seperately

I have an Epson 8700 @13 feet and I have a fairly well lit tv watching area with a 122" screen if that makes a difference in your recommendation.
 
#84 ·
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to do with this experiment. :scratch: You have already made it clear that you like your SF screen and see no reason to change until the "WOW" factor fades for you. All the above test would do is produce subjective opinions on what screen your friends liked best. What would be more telling is to have your specific SF mix color matched at a Sherwin-Williams store and then get some of their ProClassic Series B20 paint in satin finish tinted to match that sample and then make a screen using that paint. You would have a new screen that was the same (or close) color and shade as your SF screen, but without the mica and polyurethane. One problem with that scenario is that folks have told us that that paint and finish will hot spot if it is made any darker than N8 (the shade of SW 'Unique Gray') and I have no idea what the actual Munsell N shade the various SF formulae create since that data is not given by the developers.

My SF version 1.0 screen (my first DIY screen) hot spotted badly, and I made the mix twice to make sure I didn't mess up mixing it. SF version 2.0 had a definite viewing cone which Mech documented by comparing it with his Elite Cinegrey screen. The SF versions using Liquitex BASICS 'Titanium White' instead of Behr #1850 Ultra White had complaints about hot spotting and/or graininess (IIRC). The newest SF version has now gone back to using Behr #1850 Ultra White so I'm sure hot spotting with it has been reduced if not eliminated.

Now that the formulae of SF posted by PB and MM finally agree with each other we will probably do further testing of SF.

I'm not sure if I was misunderstood or not, but when I said that I was glad you liked your SF screen I was quite sincere. People have been known to spend money having their PJ's and TV's ISF calibrated to industry image standards and then not like the image! They readjusted the settings to get the image they like best and were then happy. To each his own.
 
#85 ·
If you want to see what is meant by hot spotting, take a look at this post. You can clearly see that the silver fire sample, mixed by Roland himself, hot spots - darker at the edges of the screen and much brighter at the center.
 
#87 ·
The main problem you will have painting over a SF screen is the polyurethane in the mix. Poly doesn't even like to stick to itself after it has dried let alone other types of regular paint. I would recommend sanding the SF screen with 220 grit sandpaper/sponge to give the surface some "tooth" and then use a good latex primer (Kilz 2 is OK, Kilz Premium is better). Paint over the primer as usual.
 
#88 ·
Excellent, thanks. Long story short, I'm another potential dissatisfied customer with SF. Initial test had intense hotspotting. I'm going to wait the three week period that some have talked about, then see if I need to use something else like BW. Don't worry, I'm not going to raise any drama; I just want a nice, flat gray, DIY screen, regardless of source. :) Just figured I'd get a head start here in case the hotspotting fails to go away. :praying: I've read the second-hand drama of all the SF stuff between forums, and I won't take part in all that. "Just the facts ma'am."

In case it doesn't go away, do you think Behr 1850 UPW would be decent enough for priming? I still have some left from mixing the SF. I also have some Behr Premium Plus Eggshell finish that I used for the walls in the house, which is a combo paint/primer. If you don't think so, then I'd do the Kilz. I've seen it in my local Lowe's (or was it Home Depot?).
 
#89 ·
Excellent, thanks. Long story short, I'm another potential dissatisfied customer with SF. Initial test had intense hotspotting. I'm going to wait the three week period that some have talked about, then see if I need to use something else like BW. Don't worry, I'm not going to raise any drama; I just want a nice, flat gray, DIY screen, regardless of source. :) Just figured I'd get a head start here in case the hotspotting fails to go away. :praying:
A slightly belated Welcome to HTS! :wave:

The administrators here have made it very clear that HTS is to be a "drama free" zone, that is part of the reason for the strict rules here. Unlike what you might have read elsewhere recently, the moderators here are not free to castigate and berate members here or elsewhere as the feeling strikes.

SF has always had a history of hot spotting, or at least having a very discernible viewing cone. The mix designers downplay this by showing photos of a screen from head-on and then from an angle and say "See, it still looks great! If there was any viewing cone problems it would show up in the photos.", the problem with that is that the camera is set on Auto Exposure so it will correct for any color push the screen may have and also compensate for any lose of image brightness in the off-axis photos. :doh:

Good luck with your SF screen losing it's hot spot by curing. That hasn't worked for anyone that I know of yet.

In case it doesn't go away, do you think Behr 1850 UPW would be decent enough for priming? I still have some left from mixing the SF. I also have some Behr Premium Plus Eggshell finish that I used for the walls in the house, which is a combo paint/primer. If you don't think so, then I'd do the Kilz. I've seen it in my local Lowe's (or was it Home Depot?).
You might get away with using regular Behr paint, but you might not. The choice is up to you. I personally would use a true primer like Kilz.

As for the combo paint/primer thing... it's all smoke and mirrors and simply isn't true. I know about every paint manufacturer has jumped on that bandwagon, but it doesn't alter the fact that primers and finish paints are chemically different and have different jobs to do. A primer is designed to seal over a surface so it won't act like a sponge and suck up a lot of expensive finish paint. It also has a high pigment load so it covers over existing colors (or is supposed to) and lastly it is designed to provide a "sticky" surface for the finish paint to grab on to. A finish paint is designed to flow to an even finish while drying and provide a relatively colorfast color coat with a specific finish gloss.
 
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