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post #61 of 85 Old 10-23-12, 04:48 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

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bluemax_1 wrote: View Post
The problem is that the typical audio mixing soundstage has quite a lot more volume than the average HT, and the amount of power needed for each octave lower than 30Hz, requires substantially more power to pressurize the room the greater the room volume, which is why commercial theaters rarely do much below 30Hz (low 20's even in the best ones).



Max
I had read a quote by Mark Seaton on why most movie theater's rarely go below 30hz and the reason is that anything below that would disrupt the adjoining theater. He said it was easier to block the higher frequencies but the lower was harder to control. After I read that it made a lot of sense.

I am always disappointed when I go to most theaters regarding the sound system and especially the bass, I have yet to hear one that can do bass better than at home.
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post #62 of 85 Old 10-23-12, 09:15 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

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I had read a quote by Mark Seaton on why most movie theater's rarely go below 30hz and the reason is that anything below that would disrupt the adjoining theater. He said it was easier to block the higher frequencies but the lower was harder to control. After I read that it made a lot of sense.

I am always disappointed when I go to most theaters regarding the sound system and especially the bass, I have yet to hear one that can do bass better than at home.
Mark has a valid point. The thing is, to attain the same SPL at 15Hz in a ~450,000 cubic foot room (150'x100'x30')vs hitting that SPL at 30 Hz requires WAY more power.

That much power is MUCH harder to insulate and dampen. The average theater that can hit 115db to about 30Hz has about 12,000 - 16,000 watts in the entire sound system. With a volume of about 450,000 cubic feet, it would take ~4-8 times the wattage to hit 115db at 15Hz. All that added energy is that much harder to dissipate.

From a certain perspective, you could say that it's harder to insulate the lower frequencies, but simply put, it's about power. Pump 40 watts through a 1.5" compression driver at 7kHz and you might get 126db @ 1m. Pump that same 40 watts through a sub, at 30Hz then 15Hz and you'll get far less output. All are fairly easily absorbed/insulated. Pump 50,000 watts through an array of subwoofers at 15Hz or an array of 1.5" compression drivers at 7kHz, and it's going to be a chore to insulate against (granted, anyone in a room with 50,000 watts at 7kHz is going to be permanently deaf).

Of course the higher frequencies can be absorbed by different materials that are ineffective against the lowest octaves, but the sheer power required for flat output to those octaves requires more power than the commercial theaters deem feasible to implement, both to reproduce the lowest octaves AND to insulate against.


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post #63 of 85 Old 10-23-12, 09:32 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

Color me easily amused, or a cheap date, whichever fits.

I went ahead and re-watched this disc tonight and I found the bottom end quite good and punishing on an elemental level. But, and everyone has a big BUT, I did not see this at the theater and had no pre existing notions as to how it should have sounded. Maybe that for once is a good thing eh ?
I can imagine where more low frequency information would have been expected in that forest scene based on the amount of carnage that went on, but...there goes that but again, but without anything to compare it to I guess I never really questioned it before it was mentioned here. It is kind of cool to see the movie through other folks eyes and ears though, makes for a much better discussion.

Good Listening

Jack

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post #64 of 85 Old 10-23-12, 11:41 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

I agree with you Jack, I found the bass to be a lot of fun and the room really shook and we were grinning from ear to ear.

What really surprises me is how many different people have such different reactions that I wonder if there are mastering problems with the audio on some discs and not on others? About half the bass heads I know loved the bass and the others thought it was a disappointment in the bass. I don't recall any other movies having such a wide range of comments that it makes me wonder if there were a bad batch of BD's that went out with a faulty LFE channel. Maybe half bad and the other half good?
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post #65 of 85 Old 10-24-12, 02:05 AM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

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I agree with you Jack, I found the bass to be a lot of fun and the room really shook and we were grinning from ear to ear.

What really surprises me is how many different people have such different reactions that I wonder if there are mastering problems with the audio on some discs and not on others? About half the bass heads I know loved the bass and the others thought it was a disappointment in the bass. I don't recall any other movies having such a wide range of comments that it makes me wonder if there were a bad batch of BD's that went out with a faulty LFE channel. Maybe half bad and the other half good?
One simple dividing line is ULF (Ultra Low Frequency) capability. The folks who HAVE ULF capability down to single digit Hz or even flat into the teens find it a disappointment in comparison to other bass standouts. The folks whose bass reproduction falls off a cliff below 30Hz anyway would find the bass in this movie great. Take a poll of the folks who thought the bass was great vs the folks who thought the bass was disappointing and you might find a fairly good division between folks who have smaller subs that roll off below 25-30 Hz and maybe a few hundred watts, and the ones who have a few thousand watts in subwoofers alone with a lot of square driver inches.

It's not something that can be easily explained until a person experiences powerful ULF firsthand. Take one of the classic ULF demo scenes from the remake of War Of The Worlds starring Tom Cruise. The scene where the pod first emerges has content down to ~3Hz! The reaction from folks playing it back on systems that roll off below 30Hz is typically, "Meh... I prefer XXX for bass demos".

The reaction from those same folks hearing it for the first time on single digit Hz capable systems is, "Holy ! So THAT'S what all the fuss is about with that scene!".



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post #66 of 85 Old 10-24-12, 08:11 AM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

Max

I think the answer lies in another area honestly, and that is the listener. As with everything else in this hobby, its the participant that formulates the opinion based on their hearing, vision etc. That seems to be why there are such wide variations in how folks react to most everything. I know very well what low frequencies are and being an old dude, maybe have experienced too many
Second, my room and equipment can reproduce most everything and makes me smile, I think that is a success.

Good Listening

Jack

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post #67 of 85 Old 10-24-12, 01:42 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

Max,

My username is Sub_crazy for a reason I have a total of 16 sealed subs in my system with response down to about 10hz so I am not missing anything. I use the War of the Worlds pod scene, FOTP, Black Hawk Down, Cloverfield and all the ULF bass torture tests when building subs so I know pretty well what my system is capable of. All these scenes make the whole room bounce like a trampoline and while the Avengers doesn't dig as deep it was still a thrill ride for bass and the room felt like an amusement park ride.

I have heard a pair of Seaton Submersives so I know my system digs down just as deep and owned a pair of LMS Ultra's before which are known for getting low. I guarantee you if you first heard WOW Pod scene on my system then listened to the Avengers you would not be disappointed. You could even listen to my friends system that has 4 LMS Ultra 18's and not be disappointed in the least. That is why I say that something must be wrong as all these bass heads varying opinions are all over the place.
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post #68 of 85 Old 10-24-12, 02:41 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

Mike, Avengers has a lot of bass and it's a fun movie to watch but what some have been pointing out is that it just doesn't go very low and if it did it would've been even more enjoyable.

If someone with a capable system were to play the WOTW pod scene and then throw in a scene from Avengers they will notice a difference. In fact I did pretty much just that, after I watched The Avengers with some friends I put on The Haunting (DTS) scene where the ghost is banging on the doors. Unquestionably a night and day difference experienced by all.

The Avengers bass is frequent but all sounds the same, like the guy thumping his one note rap song in the car next to you.

As a side note for the first time I was truly impressed with a commercial theater sound system at my local Arclight where they now have a Dolby Atmos system in one of the theaters. I saw Taken 2 (bad movie) and they have an Atmos intro in the beginning that sounded so good I was left slackjawed when it was over. If only the actual movie sounded that good.

Last edited by Infrasonic; 10-24-12 at 02:47 PM.
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post #69 of 85 Old 10-24-12, 03:19 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

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l.

The Avengers bass is frequent but all sounds the same, like the guy thumping his one note rap song in the car next to you.
This. This is exactly how I felt about... I had used the word "dynamic." Not to beat a dead horse, here, but there are a lot of presentations out there with bass that is more uniquely tied to it's visual source.

Maybe... its the fact that the movie has a roll off at 30hz. Maybe that's what I was picking up on. Not sure...?
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post #70 of 85 Old 10-24-12, 04:00 PM
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Re: The Avengers - Blu-ray Review

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Mike, Avengers has a lot of bass and it's a fun movie to watch but what some have been pointing out is that it just doesn't go very low and if it did it would've been even more enjoyable.

If someone with a capable system were to play the WOTW pod scene and then throw in a scene from Avengers they will notice a difference. In fact I did pretty much just that, after I watched The Avengers with some friends I put on The Haunting (DTS) scene where the ghost is banging on the doors. Unquestionably a night and day difference experienced by all.

The Avengers bass is frequent but all sounds the same, like the guy thumping his one note rap song in the car next to you.

As a side note for the first time I was truly impressed with a commercial theater sound system at my local Arclight where they now have a Dolby Atmos system in one of the theaters. I saw Taken 2 (bad movie) and they have an Atmos intro in the beginning that sounded so good I was left slackjawed when it was over. If only the actual movie sounded that good.
I will admit that it is more one note bass than other great bass movies but it was still fun.

We are both neither right or wrong, it is just an opinion. The only point I was trying to bring up is that in the past there were BD's and DVD's made at different facilities in which one pressing was perfect the other pressing had an error. I am saying it might be a possibility that this happened, probably not but who knows I just found it odd at how many people's reactions were different, all with extremely capable bass systems.

I am just going to drop it now, we may say tomato and potato differently, no need to argue who is right.
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