Monster's University - Blu-ray Review - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 24 Old 10-21-13, 01:40 AM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

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depends on the brand. Onkyo is famous for smoothening the response of the bass and requires some re-calibration to get it near the bitstream settings. Yamaha is actually one of the best with the most natural sounding PCM vs. DDTHD sound. I've compared DOZENS of receivers on the old "pcm vs. bitstream" debate and even when level matched there is usually a DISTINCT difference between the two.
You're describing anecdotal differences in receivers, like equalization ("smoothening the response"), that aren't involved in decoding (unpacking) a lossless bitstream in the player. Same as your DAC example earlier; not part of the unpacking process.

Since we are discussing bitstream out from the player vs PCM out, let me ask you: do you believe that those two settings result in different data being transmitted to the receiver or do you think it is the same data just unpacked vs packed (to take up less space)?

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post #12 of 24 Old 10-21-13, 01:46 AM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

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Basically what Mike has already explained. There is more than just bit-for-bit transfer.
So you're saying that decoding in the player isn't lossless?
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The audio DACs in my pre/pro are more to my liking than the DAC in my Oppo.
Whether you transmit the signal as bitstream or PCM, the DACs in the player are bypassed. Why would the signal be converted to analogue before being transmitted digitally?
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You talk about digital being identical and lossless being the same, but if that truly were the case, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-Master Audio tracks of the same source should sound exactly the same, correct? They don't.
Do you believe that one of them isn't lossless (bit-for-bit identical to the source), as they claim to be? Which one?

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post #13 of 24 Old 10-21-13, 01:59 AM
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Let's get this back on track here. Thanks for the review Mike. This is a day one buy for me and I loved the original. Pixar always seems to put out quality stuff and rarely have I not enjoyed one of their movies. Your review was excellent as usual and has me excited to pick this up.
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post #14 of 24 Old 10-21-13, 02:30 AM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

As I said, it is very possible that the decoding of the lossless signal in the player itself is being handled differently than in another component. It's just a matter of where that process is taking place and what technologies and implementations are doing that processing. Do you know for a fact that the lossless signal is being untouched in PCM before being sent down the chain?

"In conventional PCM, the analog signal may be processed (e.g., by amplitude compression) before being digitized. Once the signal is digitized, the PCM signal is usually subjected to further processing (e.g., digital data compression)."

My understanding of what is happening with DD-THD and DTSHD MA is they are implementing a form of Meridian Lossless Packing. So the audio file is packed up "compressed." So for the case of sending the sound via conventional PCM, the sound is first unpacked and processed into analog and then RE-packed in order to be sent to the next source.

Also, we haven't even taken into consideration bandwidth. PCM signal generally takes considerably more bandwidth to send than DTS-HD MA or DD-THD. So even if the processing is equally the same in the player or in the receiver/prepro, it still has to be sent from one to another. Because PCM digital takes more bandwidth, do we know for sure that it isn't being bottlenecked further before going to the receiver/prepro?

This is all purely speculative speaking since I don't know exactly how every technology, hardware, and/or software system works. As I said before, All I know is what I experience. To me, listening to a soundtrack does not really consist of what is taking place between my components; I am trying to experience the soundtrack in the most pleasing way. If there is a difference in how I experience it, I am sure as going to go with what I feel gives me a better experience.

And honestly does any of this really matter, anyway? So many individuals have decided for themselves that they experience a difference between PCM and bitstream. You don't experience any difference (or maybe you do experience a difference and are simply just arguing for the sake of argument), therefore you can be completely content leaving your player in PCM and I can be content bit streaming. What an individual does within their system to enjoy a movie is their own prerogative.

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post #15 of 24 Old 10-21-13, 03:00 AM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

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Do you know for a fact that the lossless signal is being untouched in PCM before being sent down the chain?
Otherwise it wouldn't be lossless (i.e., if a particular chipmaker's decoder wasn't bit-for-bit identical to the original, neither Dolby nor DTS would certify them with a license).
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"In conventional PCM, the analog signal may be processed (e.g., by amplitude compression) before being digitized. Once the signal is digitized, the PCM signal is usually subjected to further processing (e.g., digital data compression)."
Decoding a lossless bitstream to PCM is like extracting a zipped document. Data that was packed to take up less space is simply unpacked. There is no conversion to analogue at any point in the process.
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My understanding of what is happening with DD-THD and DTSHD MA is they are implementing a form of Meridian Lossless Packing. So the audio file is packed up "compressed." So for the case of sending the sound via conventional PCM, the sound is first unpacked and processed into analog and then RE-packed in order to be sent to the next source.
Dolby TrueHD uses Meridian Lossless Packing as its compression algorithm. DTS uses their own data packing algorithm (unrelated to MLP). Again, unpacking a lossless soundtrack doesn't involve any analogue steps. Rather than taking my word for it, you can fire off a quick e-mail to Dolby or DTS to confirm what I said.
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Also, we haven't even taken into consideration bandwidth. PCM signal generally takes considerably more bandwidth to send than DTS-HD MA or DD-THD. So even if the processing is equally the same in the player or in the receiver/prepro, it still has to be sent from one to another. Because PCM digital takes more bandwidth, do we know for sure that it isn't being bottlenecked further before going to the receiver/prepro?
No bottleneck, since even the earliest versions of HDMI can transmit 8 channels of PCM. Also, taking up more space or more bandwidth doesn't change the data itself. If I fold up a newspaper so that it fits in my coat pocket, I haven't changed the contents of the newspaper compared to when it was spread out on my desk.
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And honestly does any of this really matter, anyway?
That was my original point: why keep switching from bitstream to PCM when it doesn't really matter anyway? Doesn't change anything to leave the player's output as PCM.

If I have to give you a letter, I can unfold it before handing it to you or you can unfold it when I hand it to you. Does it really matter who unfolds it? Either way, you get the exact same letter. That's how lossless audio works.

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post #16 of 24 Old 10-21-13, 03:00 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

I'm gonna bring the mod thingy into this conversation and steer it back to the review. Not because it's a bad conversation... on the contrary it's a great conversation and if someone wants to open it in the audio section I'm more than happy to participate. in an effort to keep the conversation on track to the actual review of the movie etc I say we've gone far enough in this particular thread regarding the differences between Bitstreaming and LPCM
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post #17 of 24 Old 10-21-13, 10:05 AM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

As I think back on this movie, I think they did a fantastic job with the Dean Hardscrabble. Her entrance was so creepy and her character just kind of gave me the chills.

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-22-13, 12:16 AM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

I'm going to grab this one on a rental. Monsters Inc. was excellent.
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post #19 of 24 Old 10-23-13, 02:37 AM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

Thanks Mike for an awesome review. Will buy it when get my pay.
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-25-13, 04:39 PM
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Re: Monster's University - Blu-ray Review

Thanks for the review Mike - Monsters Inc stills holds a special place in my wife's and my heart as this was the first movie we ever took my oldest to and we loved it as much as he did. We still pop it in from time to time just to watch it ourselves. Blind buy for us!
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