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Lone 15" LLT or Dual 12" Sonotubes: chime-in!

16K views 77 replies 11 participants last post by  ironglen 
#1 ·
Need help with decision to build either lone 15" LLT box or dual 12" sonotubes. Looking at using a CSS SDx15/Acoustic Elegance AV15-x, or dual shiva 12"s. Primarily for deep content on HT as 'resonable' spl levels. Amp would be a Behringer 2500. Finances and space dictate no dual 15"s. The WAF is ok :kiss: (actually LIKES the cs12 I have now)

I bought an svs cs12 thinking it would be plenty of support as I use a 5.1 system with 80-150w rated in-ceiling/wall speakers with an onkyo 806, and it usually sounds good, but at 1/2 gain I don’t have any of the wall-shaking/window rattling experiences that other people at HTS have posted, not even close.

Can you help me given the space described below? :dumbcrazy:

To start, I have a living room HT upstairs ~16x16x8, that has 3 doorways to adjacent rooms, an open stairway in the front going down that has a landing near the left front of the room, and finally, one 12x8' right side (where a wall would be) that is open to downstairs with only a railing. Downstairs is ~14x35 and one end is open to this upstairs living room area with the HT(~25’ ceiling). After seeing what other posters have in the way of rooms, mine appears to very challenging in producing low reinforcement that they describe.
 
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#5 ·
Thanks for the feedback!

I was afraid that the 12" would not go low enough and maybe needed a 15", but I guess proper tuning will probably afford the low-end range, and the twin drivers will provide the needed headroom currently lacking. On the flip side, the twin drivers will have less distortion at an equal spl, correct?

I saw a post that stated a Behringer component could handle HPFing, but another stated contrary. If one of Behringer's or another will handle it, can someone tell me which one? I'd like to keep # of components to minimum, but a reckhorn or something else could be used- only I'd have to add an EQ component later:spend:d I guess a budget for a combo HPF/EQ of ~$250 would be equally cost effective vs buying two separately, any suggestions?

I'm reading that link on multiple drivers now- thanks Matt.

I guess the question will become which driver? The CSS and Exodus are the standouts in the sub $200/driver price range (my budget), and according to other threads I have read, but perhaps...there...is... another... (yea, I like starwars :yes:)
 
#7 ·
Uh, never considered it-should I? Haven't even looked at the needed box displacement. The space(s) I have available are probably not conducive to an 18" and we won't live in the current space for more than a year or two...unless...I could conceive an idea for a closet-based enclosure with a port into the living space:scratchhead: I'll have to think on that, and maybe take photos and see if perhaps someone can ingeniously incorporate one:devil:
 
#8 ·
If I am reading right, the HT is located in a bit of a loft that's open to the rest of the house? With the 16 x 16 x 8 dimentions you posted you might have one of a mode that will 'ring'. The dimentions are multiples of one another.

Can you modify the room size at all, and have you run REW to get a feel of what's going on in there?
 
#9 ·
Yeah, it's like a loft, but I'm not sure what you mean in the second statement. Other than closing the adjacent doors, no adjustment can be made to the room. I do not have a bfd yet. I was hoping to build subs and purchase amp, add some sort of hpf for protection and add eq a little later :spend: I can't incorporate a bfd without the other equipment first, correct? :ponder:
 
#10 ·
I would spend some time with room eq wizard to measure what you have at the moment, and see what you have for room gain before building subs. With about $ 150 in gear and a PC you already have and RoomEQ wizard you can take a bunch of measurements before you proceed with a subwoofer build. It will also help you identify the best placement for a subwoofer.

It can help you save money in the end, as you may find your sub needs are less than you anticipate. You can use a BFD and set filters manually, but it's easier if you use RoomEq wizard.
 
#11 ·
Sounds like that might be good advice:yes: What equipment would I need? A good mic?....

Looking at 18" builds, and even 15"'s, man that's a HEAVY piece of heaven. The weight is something I'd have trouble with, upstairs and moving in a year or two...I'm painting my 10" sonotube and it weighs a hefty, oh 45 lbs or so. Building is pretty easy, even with my weak/pathetic jig saw and busted router. Wife was surprised I created the endcaps as they looked nice, I guess. Looking like a couple Shiva's in 18" tubes may be about my only option, for now, but measurements sound like a good idea.
 
#14 ·
Two subs can potentially smoothen response for more than one seating position, but it seems to me that it is easier to achieve a flat response at one seat with one subwoofer. Also, you'd better hope that you would be getting the full 6db gain with the second sub, otherwise they wouldn't stand up to an 18" with equal displacement capability.

I'd go for the single 18".
 
#15 ·
Thanks for all of the input guys:T Sounds like I would have a great setup either way, with adv/disadv to each. After perusing the site, I've seen substantial discounts, at times in the last year on various drivers-should I wait and see if something comes up?:dunno: Budget would currently be surpassed after adding a bfd, hpf, and the gear to run room eq wizard to the original subs, amp, and materials:spend:
 
#16 ·
As far as equipment needed, you can use a variety of products, if you have Vista there are less options for outboard sound cards though. I bought the Behringer ECM8000 mic, UCA-202 soundcard and Xenyx 802 mixer. Other items you will need is a 1/4" mono to RCA adapter, and a standard XLR cable with male and female ends, at least 10-15 feet long.

A long set of RCA cables can come in handy, I use a 20 ft set to connect to my AV receiver. You can read all about connecting the equipment and measuring in the REW forum on this site. You do need a calibration file for the mic or SPL meter, again available at this site.
 
#18 ·
Budget would currently be surpassed after adding a bfd, hpf, and the gear to run room eq wizard to the original subs, amp, and materials
Don't assume you need a BFD. Flat in room FR can be achieved a lot of the time by moving the sub and moving your seat around a bit. EQ should be the very last option, not the first option.

If you go with an 18" driver and a low tune, you won't need a highpass filter.


All you really need to get going is an amp and an spl meter.
 
#20 ·
Steve, you're a true enthusiast (and pretty convincing too) :yes:

Has anyone posted on the forum a two-piece enclosure? :dumbcrazy: One that can be disassembled without destroying it and would be roughly half the weight each? A five hundred pounder is not moving into this house, closet or no, but a two-piece might!
 
#22 ·
If I go 18" it'll have to be in an adjacent closet ported to the room- no tube that big in the room by space OR waf. If ported into the room a bandpass box would be the trick, correct? I had one of those in my truck years ago with only (2) 6.5" drivers and it was surprising how well it performed without direct cone area.
 
#24 ·
I gotcha. But can a 15" LLT negate the need for a hpf? I'm guessing yes, if it is tuned really low, at the expense of spl a bit higher up. If indeed a 15", which driver(s) would be the best fit for this application?

btw: picking up an ep2500 from a member:yes:
 
#25 ·
With a single 15", I would tend to shy away from a LLT enclosure, you simply give up too much spl up higher. That coupled with main loudpseakers that don't reach very low, is asking for a dismal experience in my opinion.

IMO, when you get to dual 15's or at least a single 18, a LLT can make more sense. With a single 15, I would tune it a bit higher, and use a proper high pass filter.
 
#26 ·
I feel I should chime in here..... :) I am currently using a Mal-X in an LLT enclosure tuned to 16hz. It is crossed over at 120hz with very good results. It is the BEST sounding subwoofer I have EVER heard! This might be the best route to go, as the need to upgrade down the road will be less likely. :yes:

Matt
 
#29 ·
Ah Ha! Justification for WAF by saving money long term! But...just how big (and heavy) is your LLT=any build pics/pics? I'm on the second floor, just so you know. I figure it would have to be a coffin, I mean coffee table type if an 18" has any chance of becoming reality-otherwise, an 18" is moot.

Plus, if mine is to be visible, it has to look good- which usually lots of time/:spend:

Wait! Update as I preview this! :flex: :boxer: Wife says a huge sonotube would be preferable to a coffin! Says she likes columns :coocoo: Alrighty then!:jump: Now to look up member's 18" sonotube builds!
 
#27 ·
Posted this in another area, but it applies here
brucek was responding about the usual bfd's
Quote:brucek wrote:
Not really possible, since the lowest programmable filter is 20Hz. To affect below 20Hz, you'd require a bandwidth that would affect an equal amount above 20Hz, which wouldn't be desireable...
The BFD can approximate an LPF, but not an HPF......

brucek


Does this Behringer DEQ 1024 allow a user to perform hpf duty? Is it very much like the other BFD's other's use? On pg 7 of the manual describes a hpf function.
 

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#42 ·
The cost of two 15"s is prohibitive as 1 18" ~$420 while 2 15" ~$580 shipped. Some drivers are less costly, but usually they have foam surrounds. I've never had good longevity with foam surrounds so I won't purchase them anymore.

I have a buddy that could definitely use a better sub as it is a high ceiling open layout- I may be able to build two enclosures and give him one (I owe him), but let him 'fill it in'.

I'm playing with winisd and sonosub.exe to find a compromise (efficient use of materials) using two 6' long (23" id) tubes...I've got a 12ft3 (340L) @14.6Hz with an 8" port 48" long. xmax of 33mm reached at 12.48Hz with port vel of 33ms. Is that port vel too high, or at the limit? The output is also not nearly as flat as the 10" I modeled, but playing around with it, nothing was truly flat.

I could make different lengths, uh, say giving one (mine) a slight 'edge' as long it the other one didn't have any issues such as needing a hpf:devil: I don't know what to look for in winisd to identify such a problem, perhaps one of you guys can help in this regard (MikeP?, SteveC?)
 
#31 ·
This is not a LLT, but a decent sized enclosure tuned a bit higher, I recently built two of these, just waiting on the construction adhesive to cure on the second one. 10 cu ft gross, 18" ID sonotube, with an 8" flared and flanged port tuned to around 19hz.

I have done some preliminary testing with music and no filters, and I need to add some foam or insulation. These will be used in a music only set up, driven off a QSC PLXII 3102, crossed over around 50hz. High pass will consist of one channel of a Behringer Ultragain MIC PRO 2200.
 

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#32 ·
The 8" port actually measures out at 7 3/8" ID, and no where NEAR 8" OD.... not sure who was smoking up when the tubes were printed, I should have measured them at the store. ( 75+ miles away ) DOH!

Ended up recalculating the volume occupied by the port, and the net volume before preceeding with the build. The sono for the enclosures was spot on, they were from a different supplier though.

Especially with the smaller sizes, they have usually 3 for each size, IE a 6-, 6" and a 6+, they all ship nested to save on shipping costs.

I don't have a wiring connector, just wire ran through the port, they are getting a 4 pole speakon in the bottom when I end up with legs and or a base.
 
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