BW and Sheen

**benven** · **03-29-08, 10:14 AM**

For those of you who don't believe that a lttle bit of a semi gloss material mixed in with a flat paint can make a difference, please see below.

Black/White Pattern
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100 IRE White Field
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These pictures were taken just this morning ie no ambient light control other than roller blinds down on the windows. Flash is on. I think the difference will be even greater at night.

Background is CGIV. On the left is a Bermuda Beige panel. On the right is a 4:1 ratio of Bermuda Beige:AA Transparent Base. This to simulate the addition of AAA to Bermuda Beige but eliminating the aluminum. Only the base of the AAA paint is added to the Bermuda Beige. Can you you the difference?

So is it the sheen or the aluminum that makes BW so magical? You be the judge.

**mechman** · **03-29-08, 12:28 PM**

You're comparing Auto Air Transparent Base to Auto Air Aluminum?

And you added it to Bermuda Beige and it came out white/light gray? A transparent base?

I'm not sure what you're comparing here Ben.

But I did have an interesting discussion with Smokey Joe about sheen a couple days ago!

mech

**benven** · **03-29-08, 12:44 PM**

I am comparing the effects of the aluminum in the mix of BW. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, AAA, is transparent base plus aluminum flakes. The base has a semi gloss sheen to it. This experiment is to determine what effect the base has on the mix without the effects of aluminum. As you can clearly see, the added sheen, from the transparent base, boosts white, and obviously black levels. The panels are the same shade of gray.

**mechman** · **03-29-08, 01:46 PM**

Again Ben, you stated one was Bermuda Beige with the aluminum and one was without. And the one without aluminum is the same shade of gray as the one with it. I find that hard to believe. What color is your Bermuda Beige before you added the transparent base?

I've posted what the MSDS states AAA is which is an "organic pigment" (aluminum) and an "acrylic polymer". Does it create sheen? If it does it's very little. There are many folks now who have this and have tested this. And I haven't heard of anyone but you and Todd say it's the sheen.

Everyone else sees the aluminum flakes...

mech

**Harpmaker** · **03-29-08, 02:17 PM**

I'm having a problem understanding how a "Bermuda Beige" tinted paint is gray.

Were the photos converted to gray-scale?

**wbassett** · **03-29-08, 05:01 PM**

One thing I think we are forgetting is the original reason why I was so interested in aluminum.

It is highly reflective and doesn't refract. I won't go into a long drawn out discourse on refraction, but in order to refract light, the material has to be translucent and allow light to pass through and bend the light as it enters and exits the material. Anytime light goes through an object where different densities occur, there is bending and to some extent refraction happening. Mostly though it's wasted energy. If refraction does occur, then we start to get a prism effect as well as energy loss. Most will say the loss is insignificant, but if we can easily avoid it, why not?

When Black Jack was added to plain Kilz2 white primer, I originally was expecting a light silvery white that was very reflective. In fact my original hypothesis was it would probably be too reflective. When it changed the shade to a very dark gray, I was a bit surprised. Black Jack alone isn't very dark and is a light, bright and shiny paint. The aluminum content is so high that you could almost use it for aluminum plating of objects. Kilz2 is also light white, technically if you really want to pick nits, it's a very very light gray because anything other than 255 255 255 isn't white, and anything other than 0 0 0 isn't black- they are all shades of gray. We just perceive and accept something as 'white' because that's what our brain interprets it as.

Adding two 'light shades' yielded a much darker shade. Honestly at that point I was just about ready to throw the mix out, but decided to shoot an image on the test panel anyway. We have played around with sheens and top coatings to increase the surface sheen so I am familiar with how those tests look and this didn't look like them. Also it didn't hot spot, which was very interesting in my opinion. In order to get a plain gray the same shade as the original 'PFG' test panels to be as bright as my reference screen, the sheen needed to boost the brightness increased the specular gain to the point it hot spotted beyond anything I'd ever use or recommend.

So originally the concept was to make a gray without the use of conventional pigments paint stores use, and one that also has reflective properties. Then came the problem of color balance. I noted right away there was a slight blue lean to the BJ/Kilz2 panels. In reality it isn't as bad as it sounds, and is actually better than some other options that were being used, and not much different from a couple of commercial screens. We do however strive to achieve a true D65 neutral screen because we really believe having a neutral palate to project on just makes sense. Yes I know and understand that projector's can compensate for pushes, but usually there becomes a trade off. Just like using Keystone correction to square up the image... trade offs are to be expected. A little isn't bad, but when Keystone correction is maxed out, same as if color compensation has to be pushed to the limits on the projector side... it does impact the overall image. So the concept of sticking with a D65 reference target helps remove that variable from projector setup and calibration.

Seeing that it was no longer just a white paint and aluminum being added to create a darker gray, it was no longer 'Pigment free', but it was necessary to balance the mix out and achieve our neutral.

If properly done, Black Widow really doesn't have a lot of surface sheen to it, at least none of my panels do. So that would tend to indicate that if we tested a gray the same shade and same sheen, they 'should' perform the same. They do not. The BW does look the same as far as blacks, but white levels between the two were dramatically different. As I mentioned, if we increased the sheen of the gray panel to up the 'gain' to the point whites start coming in line with the BW, then not only does hot spotting become an issue, but blacks actually start to take a hit.

Now the reverse testing, which mech has shown too... that being testing Black Widow against a lighter gray. It's been tested against Fashion Grey, Winter Mountain, Gray Screen, a HoloVega (which is around an N8 or slightly lighter shade) as well as an N8.5 shade of gray, and many other screen options. Now whites were comparable, but black levels were much better on the BW panel.

I understand what you are trying to demonstrate, but sheen is not going to accomplish the same results. Sheen is in a way a quick fix, a little can be helpful, but it can quickly go out of control and then we have hot spotting issues.

I'm now hitting BW with an even brighter projector, 2000 lumens from my AX200. Video optimized it's nowhere near 2000 lumens, but it is still brighter than my Sharp. I even went to max light output mode and I had no problem at all with hot spotting. I've used poly's and even paints with higher sheens, such as eggshell finishes and even played with Satin, and they all end up hot spotting and blooming with whites. I can crank down the brightness and contrast to reduce the blooming and hot spotting, but then shadow detail starts to get lost.

The approach I take is to look at what the pros do and use that as a guideline. I have not seen any commercial screens that use a lot of surface sheen. Based on that and personal experience, I personally do not think sheen is an answer as much as it can be a problem.

**benven** · **03-29-08, 08:23 PM**

Maybe I didn't communicate very effectively here. I did not use any aluminum in the tests.

I am trying to prove to myself, and maybe others, that the base, of the AAA paint, has more of an effect than the aluminum, in the AA paint, in BW mix. So, I bought some BB from Lowes. It is a pinkish gray color. Color doesn't matter here. It is what it is. The only reason I bought the stuff is because tiddler asked me to so he can complete the experiments he is doing. Otherwise, I never would have done this. Anyway, just an aside, for those inquiring minds, I am not in cahoots with tiddler. One e-mail asking me for paint. And that's it. Tiddler can vouch for that.

Anyway, I'll try and explain what I did here one more time. Two panels. One panel is painted with 2 coats of BB. The other panel is painted with 1 coat BB and 1 coat 4:1 BB:AA Transparent Base. This is the acrylic polymer that is the base for the AAA paint. I wanted to see the effects of the base on the mix, not the aluminum. This seems like the only way to do it. Knowing that the sheen of this product is not flat, but rather semi gloss (because I have tried this product many times so I know this for fact), I expected it to effect the sheen of the mix. I even stated that in another thread. Believe what you want about the sheen. Go get some yourself if you don't believe me and try it. You'll see what I mean. I think I'm a pretty credible person here. You've seen what I can do and what I am about. Again, only to learn and investigate. This is all I'm doing here.

Anyway, bottom line to me is the base is creating sheen, which helps boost performance. I believe in your own experimentation with pure aluminum powder, yes, I know it was spheres and not flakes, that you seen no improvement. Spheres are still reflective in their own right.

My conclusions:

1. Sheen, not the aluminum particles, is the biggest factor in the BW mix when it comes to boosting performance
2. Mixing aluminum particles in latex paint mutes the reflective properties of the aluminum particles. You need to really thin down the mix before we start seeing any boost from the metallics.
3. Coated mica flakes, at least the ones I have used, do not exhibit color shifting and prismatic effects and can also provide a nice boost in performance

**mechman** · **03-29-08, 11:27 PM**

Ok so you're not mixing the Transparent base in with the Bermuda Beige but applying it on top? And this relates to the Black Widow mix how?

As for people going and getting it and trying it, I've had Harp do independent tests concurrently. And his conclusions are the same as everyone else's. Sheen has very little, if anything to do with BW. It's the aluminum. It has even been shown by a separate third party at avs. And I believe Todd has macros at LL which clearly show the aluminum flakes prevalent on the surface. I don't know what else to do to convince you. It appears to me that your mind is made up though. Maybe we should all agree to disagree?

As for the mica, is that what this is all about? Or is it because I stated my opinion - sometimes albeit a bit forceful as I had to reach our main detractor(s)? You know I really apologize if you think this is grandstanding in anyway. But I think I've given credit to everyone involved in this, including yourself, many times over.

It's become known now what Todd's motive's are. I hope yours are not the same. I have always given you the benefit of the doubt and I was saddened when you said you were leaving because of something I said. I'm glad you're back but I hope it's not for the wrong reasons.

mech

**Harpmaker** · **03-29-08, 11:48 PM**

Hi Ben. Thanks for clearing up the color question. I know the color of the BB tinted paint is not an issue in this thread, but it may very well be an issue if you send this paint to Tiddler. Unless your camera is trying to auto white-balance on the panels, the color seems to be off. Please check the color of your BB against that given for BB in the Black Widow thread using EasyRGB to make sure it's accurate.

May I ask what viewing cone the right-hand panel has? About how many degrees must you move away from 90 degrees before the right-panel is the same shade as the left panel?

**Harpmaker** · **03-29-08, 11:59 PM**

Hi mech!

I misread Ben's last post just as you did and thought he was using the Transparent Base as a top-coat. I re-read his post and discovered my error.

From Ben's post (emphasis mine):

"Two panels. One panel is painted with 2 coats of BB. The other panel is painted with 1 coat BB and 1 coat 4:1 BB:AA Transparent Base."

The Transparent Base does indeed appear to add sheen via gloss when mixed 4:1 with BB.

**mechman** · **03-30-08, 12:18 AM**

Ahhh, thanks Don! I hate when I do that! It still leaves a a big question. How does a Auto Air Base mixed 4:1 with Bermuda Beige relate to Auto Air aluminum mixed with Bermuda Beige? You're raising the amount of acrylic polymers quite a bit. At a minimum I'd guess 100%.

So what's the ratio of aluminum to acrylic polymer in an Auto Air Aluminum base? By the looks of it, it seems more than 50/50 - more aluminum than acrylic polymer. I doubt Auto Air would tell us. But I'll shoot my contact another email and see what they tell me.

So all this shows me is that adding an acrylic polymer to a paint creates sheen. And from my discussions with smoke, sheen isn't what we're looking for. Sheen in paint means less TiO2 which equals less reflectance. Unless of course you're going with a base coat and a topcoat. So maybe I'm finally getting that question answered that I've always asked and no ones answered, why the need for a topcoat. The answer I guess is to add sheen?

mech

**drf** · **03-30-08, 03:43 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Ahhh, thanks Don! I hate when I do that! It still leaves a a big question. How does a Auto Air Base mixed 4:1 with Bermuda Beige relate to Auto Air aluminum mixed with Bermuda Beige? You're raising the amount of acrylic polymers quite a bit. At a minimum I'd guess 100%.

mech

I would say he is questioning that if you remove the aluminium from the mix and use just auto air base instead of the Auto air aluminium, it shows that the aluminium doesn't play as bigger role as everyone has first observed. The suggestion is that the amount of sheen in the base could make for better whites than the aluminium content. And if his photos can be verified that there is no auto white balance in his camera and they haven't been doctored etc, then this is some evidance that requires more attention.

**mechman** · **03-30-08, 05:47 AM**

Quote:

drf wrote:

I would say he is questioning that if you remove the aluminium from the mix and use just auto air base instead of the Auto air aluminium, it shows that the aluminium doesn't play as bigger role as everyone has first observed. The suggestion is that the amount of sheen in the base could make for better whites than the aluminium content. And if his photos can be verified that there is no auto white balance in his camera and they haven't been doctored etc, then this is some evidance that requires more attention.

But then we create the problem of having poor blacks. It's easy to create whiter whites. The trick is trying to do so without sacrificing blacks. It's all moot though as the only real way to test this versus Black Widow would be to get a base of the same tint and add the proper proportion of Auto Air Base to it and then compare it to BW. I'd guess the Auto Air Transparent Base to paint ratio would have to be around 12 parts paint to 1 part AA Transparent Base. Then maybe you could see what effect, if any, sheen has on it. But then again, maybe I'm just rambling!

Regardless I have a similar tint in a matte base for my tests this week and should have those results shortly.

And yeah drf, pictures are relative to the camera and the shooter. I trust benven to not doctor images but it's weird to see the Bermuda Beige being gray like that. Personally I trust spectrum images and data over pictures any day. But ya gotta try and appease the masses.

mech

**drf** · **03-30-08, 06:36 AM**

I trust Benven too (I didn't mean to impune his character), I just reallise that with something as technical as this, it would be easy to dismiss an idea based on something as simple as that be it intentional or otherwise.

**muzz** · **03-30-08, 08:01 PM**

I find it very difficult to believe that the ALU does nada here, and, and that it's all the base... this means that the "Bases" of the Henry558 and Blackjack do all the work, and the ALU does nothing?

**benven** · **03-30-08, 09:34 PM**

Let's take a step back...this forum, I thought is for learning and developing. However, when one lays the smackdown that BW is the best DIY ambient paint mix out there, you're just asking for this to be challenged. I say, pardon. What's wrong with questioning and discovery and some facts? And like I keep saying, if you don't believe me, go out and prove it to yourself.

Onward we go.

No, the photos were not doctored. I am just plain horrible with a camera. The photos with a flash, that I presented, are gray. The photos without a flash are blue? I don't know. Anyway, the point is, as drf has figured out what I am trying to do, that sheen is playing a part here. You can see that whether the photos are red, blue green, fuscia, magenta, lavendar, dusty rose, etc.

Did I say sheen was a bad thing? Did I say it was the only thing helping boost performance in BW?

This is how I see it, after many experiments and empirical observations:
1. The aluminum, or any metallic, imparts the colour to the mix. That is if there is a large portion of the mix as paint. If there is a little bit of paint in the mix, and in my empirical ways that means about less than 5%, then the metallics can impart some reflective properties.
2. The base paint does affect how much the aluminum particles can reflect back. Different bases are reacting differently with the metallic particles.
3. Sheen, IMO and I think I proved it, does play a rather large part in BW
4. mech's own experiments with aluminum powder, albeit spherical and not flakes, were a dud. Aluminum spheres should be reflective. Try it again in a satin or semi gloss base and see what we get.
5. The AA Transparent Base has a semi gloss sheen to it. Period. End of discussion. Don't like what I just said, buy some yourself and test it.
6. Transparent Base is the base for AAA. See where I'm going with this.

Actually, if I must say the panel on the right in all the photos, the one with the transparent base mixed in, is not a bad looking screen. A little hotspotting, but watchable.

So, 1 thing I did mess up on, see I'm willing to say I'm not perfect, is the fact that AAA is probably 50% aluminum and 50% base. So in the interest of doing things correctly, I wil mix up a new batch of BB and transparent base. The ratio I will use will be 8:1 BB to transparent base.

I want to understand why BW is the best. Don't you?

**wbassett** · **03-30-08, 11:13 PM**

Ben I have an honest question. I am not sure if I misunderstood, and if not I kinda need something explained.

Are you saying you used just the transparent base added to Bermuda Beige and it made it gray?

Also nobody is debating that you are saying that the AA Transparent Base has a semi gloss sheen to it, but everyone that's made a BW is reporting back that it has a matte finish and not an abundance of surface sheen.

If you were to mix 50/50 semi gloss poly with flat poly, you'd get something between an eggshell and satin finish. Considering the AAA Black Widow is 20% AA Aluminum mixed with a flat base, we're now looking at a sheen between flat and eggshell, ideally matte, but depending on the base used I can see it possibly going up to an eggshell, maybe between that and satin. I personally would say that would be a bad base to use.

Nobody is ripping on you, but I can also say from all my testing and empirical testing that the aluminum content does make a difference. Here in lay a quandary. You state your opinion and empirical testing proves it's nothing but the sheen, and mine says different.

This is one reason why I'm not a total fan of empirical... it's open to supposition and conjecture on the part of the individual. That's why I like to have hard data to go along with things.

Aluminum isn't new. You have used it, albeit in small amounts and in conjunction with a higher grade of mica than most DIY developers have used. In that sense I applaud you for breaking the mold and mind set of using low grade craft paints. I can tell you multiple commercial screens that also employ aluminum or other non-interference methods. Those screens also do not have a lot of sheen to them, they don't need it.

This is however quite different than your previous CG applications. I know I have pointed out some of the pitfalls of mica, mainly as I said low grade mica products... but I have also referred many people to take a look at CGIV. BW employs a very high amount of aluminum compared to other previous methods. It is apparent that not all paint bases are ideal, and we have tried to test out the most common paints people use.

Sheen does work to an extent, but goes out of control very fast. I'd rather have a screen that is matte, but reflective and more effective at sending the projected light back to the viewer than having a glossy screen that has a high probability of hot spotting.

I have something coming soon that hopefully will shed a lot of light on a few statements. If it works the way I think it will, then we will have a lot of things answered. If it doesn't work as I expect, I'll be the first to say the test proved other's theories. However if it does work, I honestly don't expect it to quell any debates some may have, and probably will open a Pandora's box of other questions they want answered. All in good time though.

As far as ambient light performance, GS is by far one of the best (and also by far the easiest) gray screen I have used that works exceptionally well with ambient lighting, and lots of it too.. and BW smoked it. With lights out viewing, and with the right projector lumens, it is a very good multi-purpose screen. Like I said above... for those that don't like a gray screen in the N8-N8.5 range, I have recommended your application as well as some other advanced mixes.

**Harpmaker** · **03-30-08, 11:31 PM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

So in the interest of doing things correctly, I wil mix up a new batch of BB and transparent base. The ratio I will use will be 8:1 BB to transparent base.

Looking forward to it Ben!

Just a word about the spherical aluminum being reflective - maybe; but since this product was designed to be used in fireworks I highly doubt it. I'm not saying it didn't have some shine to it, but I doubt it looked like really really small ball bearings.

Pure aluminum is not a naturally reflective (as in mirror-like) metal. If it is polished to make it shiny and is not coated with a clear finish to protect it from the air it will begin to oxidize rapidly and soon look like a gray paint with a little shine to it. The mirror-like aluminum flakes that are used in most aluminum paints are specially made (usually clear coated) to retain that appearance.

**Harpmaker** · **03-30-08, 11:42 PM**

Hi Bill,

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but in post #7 Ben said "So, I bought some BB from Lowes. It is a pinkish gray colour."

It sounds (and looks) to me like it might be a bad color match, that's why I recommended he check the color against the EasyRGB sample in the BW thread.

**wbassett** · **03-30-08, 11:49 PM**

Quote:

benven wrote:

This is how I see it, after many experiments and empirical observations:

The aluminum, or any metallic, imparts the colour to the mix. That is if there is a large portion of the mix as paint. If there is a little bit of paint in the mix, and in my empirical ways that means about less than 5%, then the metallics can impart some reflective properties.

Again my empirical testing shows that 20% aluminum does make a significant difference.
The base paint does affect how much the aluminum particles can reflect back. Different bases are reacting differently with the metallic particles.

This is obviously true. Not all brands of paint are the same and I stated this a very long time ago when someone was trying to create a 'universal tint' that they were recommending to people for any brand or base. It just doesn't work like that, and the same applies here. We can't test every single brand of paint out there, but I do think we tested the most common ones people use.
Sheen, IMO and I think I proved it, does play a rather large part in BW

On this part I disagree. I think you showed that sheen can boost brightness, but not in the same way that we are doing it. Plus as you stated yourself, it looks nice but there is a hot spotting issue, which is classic of too much sheen.
mech's own experiments with aluminum powder, albeit spherical and not flakes, were a dud. Aluminum spheres should be reflective. Try it again in a satin or semi gloss base and see what we get.

Nobody is denying that. I have around 5 pounds of TI02 sitting here, as well as aluminum, and even 'white' aluminum. Mixing powders is not the same as mixing a paint that is comprised of aluminum, or anything for that matter. The key would be to turn the powder into a paint form and then mix that.
The AA Transparent Base has a semi gloss sheen to it. Period. End of discussion. Don't like what I just said, buy some yourself and test it.

Again nobody is arguing with you there, but it isn't the same as AAA. If it were, then what would be the sense of Createx even selling aluminum?
Transparent Base is the base for AAA. See where I'm going with this.

I think we understand that is the base used for AAA, but AAA also has aluminum added. In that I am not sure how you are saying they are the same or act the same.

.

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