Prof.'s DIY screen

[Harpmaker]

Looking forward to your testing Prof.!

If you want to see the prismatic effect of mica in a metallic silver paint, get a small bottle of the Delta Ceramcoat metallic silver.

[Prof.]

Ok..will do..

I had another look at the silver sample I did yesterday, with a magnifying glass and I can see some small green sparkles..but oddly enough, no other colours, no matter what angle I look at it..
It looks like it might have some mica in it after all..I think it probably has a high percentage of Ali with some mica thrown in..

[MississippiMan]

Prof. wrote:

OK..It's time to get serious..

I will be going with a flat white base..probably the Dulux Vivid White..

I'm now looking at two different types of application..

1. The silver metallic added to the clear acrylic matte mix, and applied on top of the white base..
Estimated ratio will be about 10:1..10 parts clear matte acrylic to 1 part silver..

2. A mix of white, silver and clear acrylic, applied directly onto the undercoated panel..
The initial estimated mix ratio for this will be 1:1..silver and clear acrylic, added to 2 parts white..

Neither of these applications are new and I take no credit for them..The only difference will be the addition of the clear matte acrylic..

MMan has shown in his mix, that he has used a Faux Deep Base Glaze..I can't get hold of that here, so I'm hoping that the clear matte acrylic (that I already have) will work in a similar way..to add depth or "pop" to the image..

The chief difference between the Faux Glaze and a Clear Matte Acrylic is sheen. "Matte" notwithstanding, under projected light, every attempt at using a "Clear Matte" as the carrier for Silver has been essentially a disaster. The Clear Matte Acrylic will be much to "clear" and will make the surface hot spot and sparkle like crazy. Zat's a fact, Jack....er..., Prof.

...............and that was at 95% Glaze to 5%. Silver.

The Glaze drys just a bit "hazy", and ever so slightly mutes the Silver Metallic....just enough...whereas a Clear lets the Silver run wild.

Here's what you do. Add just 10% SM...5% Vivid White...85% Clear. Let the small amount of VW do the muting. Your using an additional 5% SM anyway.

For a Top Coat w/Silver, I myself would also more wisely suggest the most Translucent of Bases..."Tint Base" I believe, instead of the VW. After all, you just want to "mute" not "cover" or "coat".

85% Clear Acrylic Matte
5% Tint Base
10% Silver

That mix will be pretty milky looking (...but not opaque...) and should be close to a "Glaze".

Is this a Roller project?

If so, Rolling it out would be the biggest challenge of all.

If your spraying, you MUST thin the completed Mix (Top Coat) with 25% water, and "Dust" it on in successive, rapidly applied rows from 14" minimum...and that overlap 60%. Do that, and ye shall be enlightened,

I'll be making up 3 test panels initially..One will be painted with just the Dulux Vivid White, which will be my reference panel..and 1 panel of application 1. and a panel of application 2.
These two will be compared to the reference panel for any performance improvements..
I may have to make additional panels if the tests don't show what I'm after..

Yesterday I bought a sample of Silver Metallic Craft Acrylic, and initial tests showed it to be a good contender as a silver additive..
I will however get some other samples, just to get the very best that's available here..
I've found seven different brands of Silver craft paint, which I'll list here in case anyone recognizes them..

Decoart Americana
Mont Marte (sample I've just bought)

Delta Ceramcoat

Thats the one to try. It's the Silver I use in S-I-L-V-E-R

Mattisse
Jo-Sonya
Dazzling Metallics
Karl Craft

Fortunately I can get most of these online, so I won't have to make a special trip to the City..

At the moment, I've started to paint the test panels with Dulux sealer/undercoat..When that's finished I'll get the Dulux Vivid White..

I'll keep everyone informed as I progress..

Consider my suggestions if you can. Good Luck!

[Prof.]

Thanks MMan..

MississippiMan wrote:

The Glaze drys just a bit "hazy", and ever so slightly mutes the Silver Metallic....just enough...whereas a Clear lets the Silver run wild.

For some reason, I've always been under the impression that the Glaze was perfectly clear..

Here's what you do. Add just 10% SM...5% Vivid White...85% Clear. Let the small amount of VW do the muting. Your using an additional 5% SM anyway.

Sounds like a good plan to me..

For a Top Coat w/Silver, I myself would also more wisely suggest the most Translucent of Bases..."Tint Base" I believe, instead of the VW. After all, you just want to "mute" not "cover" or "coat".

The second type of application will be just a one coat mix, similar to Harps Cream and Sugar method, where the main ingredient will be white with clear and silver added..It's not a translucent top coat..

Is this a Roller project?

You guessed it!.

[Prof.]

I finally have my 4 Litres of Dulux Vivid White..and test panels are underway..

Note to Aussie users...Dulux don't label it as "Vivid White" anymore..just "White"..
I checked with Dulux, and it's still the same mix as previously...They just can't use the name..Vivid White..

At the moment, the second coat has just been applied to three panels..

The first panel is just the Dulux White..This will be used as a reference panel..
The second panel is a 4:2:1 mix of White/Silver/Matt Acrylic..
The third panel is the same as the second, only 10% of Gold has been added..

Panel 2 has really surprised me..Even though it's a 2:1 mix, of white and silver, it looks to be just slightly darker than the reference panel...and still looks more a white panel than a grey one..
Harp, I think this would look very similar to yours..

Panel 3 is something else!!..I can't say that it looks white or grey..It almost has a pearlescent look to it, but with out any sheen..Should be interesting to see the results..

When the panels have cured, I'll take some pics. on the colour band pattern..

[Harpmaker]

Prof. wrote:

I finally have my 4 Litres of Dulux Vivid White..and test panels are underway..

Alllrighhtttt!

At the moment, the second coat has just been applied to three panels..

The first panel is just the Dulux White..This will be used as a reference panel..
The second panel is a 4:2:1 mix of White/Silver/Matt Acrylic..
The third panel is the same as the second, only 10% of Gold has been added..

I would guess that panel #2 would be kind of bluish looking since all silver metallic paints I have spectro'd have had a heavy blue push. Depending on the color of light it is examined, under this could make it look very white. The human eye tends to see blueish white as "whiter than white".

Panel 2 has really surprised me..Even though it's a 2:1 mix, of white and silver, it looks to be just slightly darker than the reference panel...and still looks more a white panel than a grey one..
Harp, I think this would look very similar to yours..

Sure sounds like it! If you're going for a darker screen, be aware that adding more of the silver paint may introduce some gloss to the mix. This is easily taken care of, in fact, your matte acrylic might do the job. Don't know, never used it.

Since you are using 33% silver and the paint is still very light my guess is that there is no aluminum in it. It sounds very much like the Craft Smart silver I use. In order to get a mix as dark as BW AAA 4:1 I had to reverse the ratio and use 80% silver! At that strength the gloss from the silver was a problem for me, but adding some Deep Base fixed it right up.

Do you see any metallic sparkles in this panel?

Panel 3 is something else!!..I can't say that it looks white or grey..It almost has a pearlescent look to it, but with out any sheen..Should be interesting to see the results..

Be careful adding other metallics to the mix; some gold paints I have tested have a very heavy prismatic effect to them. Only you can tell if the effect you're getting with panel #3 is pleasing or not. If you want to color-correct for the blue push of the silver you can just add some yellow to the mix.

When the panels have cured, I'll take some pics. on the colour band pattern..

Looking forward to them!
I would like to request some photos of the panels together in either bright daylight or perhaps using a flash.

I hope you are making some small samples to send mech for testing with the spectro. If he doesn't want 'em send 'em to me.

[Prof.]

Harpmaker wrote:

I would guess that panel #2 would be kind of bluish looking since all silver metallic paints I have spectro'd have had a heavy blue push. Depending on the color of light it is examined, under this could make it look very white. The human eye tends to see blueish white as "whiter than white".

Actually Harp, it doesn't look bluish white at all..It looks to be a VERY light shade of grey..
I compared it against some white poster board and that does look bluish white in comparison..

Since you are using 33% silver and the paint is still very light my guess is that there is no aluminum in it. It sounds very much like the Craft Smart silver I use. In order to get a mix as dark as BW AAA 4:1 I had to reverse the ratio and use 80% silver! At that strength the gloss from the silver was a problem for me, but adding some Deep Base fixed it right up.

Yes, I certainly wouldn't want to have any less silver in the mix, infact I'm already thinking that I could have a 1:1 mix, without any problem..
As far as any additional gloss that might occur, I'm fairly sure that the matt acrylic would keep it under control..

Do you see any metallic sparkles in this panel?

In the bright sunlight and with a magnifying glass, I can see a few silver sparkles, but not as many as I had expected...and I don't see any coloured sparkles..
It would seem that the matt acrylic has a masking effect as well..
I may have to increase the silver content even further..

One of the benefits of the matt acrylic is that it makes the mix thinner and very easy to roll..with no roller marks showing..

Be careful adding other metallics to the mix; some gold paints I have tested have a very heavy prismatic effect to them. Only you can tell if the effect you're getting with panel #3 is pleasing or not. If you want to color-correct for the blue push of the silver you can just add some yellow to the mix.

From the looks of it at the moment, blue push isn't going to be a problem, so I may just drop the gold out.

I would like to request some photos of the panels together in either bright daylight or perhaps using a flash.

Will do..

I hope you are making some small samples to send mech for testing with the spectro. If he doesn't want 'em send 'em to me.

I haven't done so yet, but the mixes are in individually marked tins..so I can do test samples anytime..

[Prof.]

Here are the test panel shots..

In all these pics., the panels are arranged from left to right as..

Panel 1. Dulux White

Panel 2. White/Silver

Panel 3. White/Silver/Gold

Outside in direct sunlight..
In daylight, there doesn't appear to be much difference between panel 2 &3..


White projector light straight on..
Under this lighting, panel 3 looks darker..


Taken at 45 degrees..
One thing that surprised me in this shot is that my own screen appears to have a viewing cone..


Taken at about 150 degrees..
My screen has reached it's limits and panels 2 & 3 have virtually merged together..Panel 1 is still unaffected by the extreme viewing angle..


Colour bars straight on..
My screen and panel 1 are identical straight on, and 2 & 3 look almost identical..with a very slight darkening of panel 3..


45 degrees..


160 degrees..
Panels 2 & 3 are identical at this angle..


Best panel for whites..My screen followed by panel 1..
Best panel for blacks.. Panel 2!..which surprised me, considering that panel 3 looks a little darker with general colours..
Best panel for colours...This is the tough one..The darker the panel, the darker the colours..

At the moment I'm tending to lean towards panel 2 overall..Excellent blacks, but with a small amount of white crush..
I may need some additional additive or a slightly different mix, to try and elevate the whites up to my current level..

[Harpmaker]

Good stuff Prof.!

You might try cutting back on the matte acrylic to let more of any natural gloss the silver might have show, or perhaps the MA is muting the silver a bit.

You've probably mentioned it before, but what is your current screen? It seems to be almost as dark as panel 2 in the 160 degree color bar shot (please forgive the missing "u" in "color", they cost a lot to use here in the States, so we conserve them whenever possible ).

[Prof.]

Harpmaker wrote:

You might try cutting back on the matte acrylic to let more of any natural gloss the silver might have show, or perhaps the MA is muting the silver a bit.

I have another panel underway..This one will be the plain white as a base coat and a mix of silver and the matt acrylic as a top coat..
This should show if the acrylic is muting the silver, and if it's the white that's the problem, then seperating them might help..

You've probably mentioned it before, but what is your current screen? It seems to be almost as dark as panel 2 in the 160 degree color bar shot

I'm currently using Melamine board..
As you may know, it has a sheen which I've top coated with the matt acrylic..
I think this why my whites are so good..The light from the projector, penetrates the matt acrylic top coat and reflects back from the white sheen underneath..without hotspotting..

(please forgive the missing "u" in "color", they cost a lot to use here in the States, so we conserve them whenever possible ).

..I love it!!...Good one Harp..

[cynical2]

Nice work, Prof!

[Prof.]

Thanks Jim..I'm hoping to have some more results soon..

[Prof.]

I finished test panel No.4 yesterday, and WOW!!..what a surprise that turned out to be.. and in more ways than one..

In shading, it's between the Dulux White panel and the White/silver panel..but it looks more "Off White" than Grey..
Also , the surface feels totally different than the other panels..
With the paint mix panels, they feel "chalky" like most latex paints and have some resistance when you run your finger along them..
This panel feels "Glassy", with no resistance when you run your finger across it..

Last night I couldn't resist seeing how it looked, so I put it up on my screen while watching a movie and some DTV..
Well, the first thing that blew me away was the WHITES!...Absolutely BRILLIANT!!..even better than my screen..and that's always been very good at reproducing whites..

I checked the blacks, and they also looked very good..possibly slightly darker than my current blacks...and I think if I re-calibrated the projector, they would be even better..

Generally the colours were almost identical to my screen, some being slightly lighter and some slightly darker..but there were times when I couldn't pick where the test panel was on the screen..

I had a look from the 150 degree angle and there doesn't seem to be any viewing cone problems..but I'll have to do the colour bar test to determine if that's true..

Just for laughs, I thought I'd see how it performed in some ambient light conditions, so I turned up the downlights a bit, but couldn't tell if there was much difference..So I then turned them all the way up (total of 350W.) and noticed that the new panel was showing better contrast than my screen!..
So it looks like this paint application would give some benefit in an ambient light situation as well..

There is a bit of a down side however..It looks like this paint application may have produced an angular-reflective panel..I'll need to do some more testing..

Today I'm going to do some test shots, same as the first series, so it should be interesting..

[Prof.]

Well I've just had a look at the new panel under white light from the projector and unfortunately it's hot-spotting...
I took a close look at the surface in sunlight and I can see sparkles everywhere..

I think the matt acrylic is suspending the alumimium particles and a proportion of them are probably very close to the surface..
It seems that the matt acrylic is not the culprit that's doing the majority of masking in the other panels..but is probably doing some of it..

There's one more thing I'm going to try..I'm going to apply a coat of pure matt acrylic over the top coat mix, and hope that it will give just enough masking effect to tame the hot-spotting..

Here's what the new panel looks like in daylight..

From left to right...
Dulux white reference panel..
Base coat: white.. Top coat: matt acrylic and silver..
White/Silver/matt acrylic..


The camera doesn't show that the centre panel is more of an off white..

[thxgoon]

Wow Prof, I'm excited to hear your developements on panel number 4! It sound like just what I've been looking for

[Harpmaker]

Prof., welcome to the world of DIY Screen Paint Developers. It's not an easy road to travel, but still rewarding in many ways.

I would just remind you to not judge darker gray panels directly against white or very light gray panels. Doing so can make you think that the gray panels are crushing whites when they're really not. What we see while watching our projectors is a perceived image, and unless you have a very low-lumen PJ, the screen can be quite dark and still appear to give very white whites as long as the screen is one color. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Looking forward to your next test!

[mechman]

Looking good Prof.!

Are you certain it's the aluminum that is causing the hot spotting? I'd think it would be the acrylic more than anything else even though it's matte. I've got some extremely high concentration aluminum mixes and they don't hot spot at all.
refresh my memory why you wanted to add the acrylic. Was it to mask the aluminum? Or was it to bring out more? Did you try this sans the acrylic?

As for the viewing cone, that is sure to be the acrylic causing that!

[Harpmaker]

mech,

I'm guessing that Prof. is using something more like my Craft Smart silver (no AL in it); and I know that if the percentage of CSMS gets too high I start getting sheen from gloss because of the base of the CSMS; which I have controlled by adding a smidgen of Deep Base in the few mixes I tested before I got wrapped up in C&S.

[Prof.]

thxgoon wrote:

Wow Prof, I'm excited to hear your developements on panel number 4! It sound like just what I've been looking for

thxgoon...There is a problem with hot-spotting at the moment, which I'm working on..so I hope I can come through for you..