Prof.'s DIY screen

**Prof.** · **04-01-08, 08:04 PM**

mech..I think you and the guys have done a sterling job to bring BW to fruition, and it amazes me just how much time and effort you've put into this..

I certainly don't expect you to give any more time to this on my part..I think you deserve a well earned rest..

You have a working screen in BW which is ideal for ambient light situations..
It's becoming clear, that it isn't exactly what I'm looking for, whereas in the beginning I thought it might be suitable in my application..

It looks like I'll have to do some experimenting of my own if I want to have a screen that fills my requirements..
In no way will anything I might come up with, be in competition to BW..as it will be exclusively for the other side..totally light controlled theatres..
I'll be moving right away from BB and looking more at the whites and clears as a base..

It also seems that you can only do so much with paints, so I may also take another look at alternative materials..It's been awhile since I scoured the materials market..

Should I come up with anything that looks promising, I'll start a new thread so as not to interfere with your already excellent work..

**mechman** · **04-01-08, 08:27 PM**

Well Smokey gave me oodles of info not that long ago and plain old Dulux White had the best spectrum image I've ever seen - for a white. If you can get that....

**Prof.** · **04-02-08, 10:26 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Well Smokey gave me oodles of info not that long ago and plain old Dulux White had the best spectrum image I've ever seen - for a white. If you can get that....

Thanks mech...Dulux white is one of the whites I was going to look at..
Sounds like I don't have to look any further..

..and it looks like the Dulux Sealer/undercoat is what I'll be using as a sealing coat on the MDF..

I also want to incorporate the AAA somehow..since it cost an arm and a leg, but It will have to be used sparingly because I don't want to move too far away from white..

**mechman** · **04-03-08, 01:36 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

Thanks mech...Dulux white is one of the whites I was going to look at..
Sounds like I don't have to look any further..

..and it looks like the Dulux Sealer/undercoat is what I'll be using as a sealing coat on the MDF..

I also want to incorporate the AAA somehow..since it cost an arm and a leg, but It will have to be used sparingly because I don't want to move too far away from white..

Prof.,

I would not mix this with AAA! You'd ruin a very good white with a bad blue push more than likely. You can always ask around and see if someone will take the AAA off of your hands.

**Prof.** · **04-03-08, 06:23 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Prof.,

I would not mix this with AAA! You'd ruin a very good white with a bad blue push more than likely. You can always ask around and see if someone will take the AAA off of your hands.

mech,

Actually I'm not looking to add the AAA to the white, because it would require a very small amount added to the white to keep it light and then you have the problem of scattered dispersion through the mix..

My latest thought (and they are just thoughts at the moment} is to do a two coat application..
The first coat consisting of a concentrated mix (probably about 2:1) of clear matte acrylic and AAA..
This should give a good concentration of AAA across the screen..
Also,If there is any sheen from the base of the AAA, then the addition of the matte acrylic should also help to reduce this..
The top coat will be the white with clear matte acrylic added to it, in an attempt to reduce the opacity of the white and allow some of the AAA base coat to come through as a partial reflector..

With the addition of the clear matte acrylic to the mixes, I'm hoping that this might give some extra depth to the image as well..

I may be wrong, but I think this would give me something above an N9.5 screen, and with a gain above a normal grey screen..

I would be interested to hear from you or anyone else as to whether it's a stupid idea or whether it has some merit..

**cynical2** · **04-03-08, 08:19 PM**

Prof, I love the creativity. I say give it a try...

Personally, I'd consider making a few sample panels with different ratios of both the base and top coats. Then you can narrow it to the "best" sample, and from there decide if it's worth pursuing for a large screen. Since the ratios you mentioned for each coat have (I assume) somewhat arbitrary, this would allow you to see the performance of a variety of mix ratios.

Whatever you decide, keep us updated please!

**Prof.** · **04-03-08, 08:43 PM**

Thanks Jim for the vote of confidence..

Unfortunately I only have 240ml. of the AAA, which I'm going to need, to do a whole screen with..
So I'm not going to be able to do any test panels...which means I have to get it right first pop..

I'm hoping to call on you guys for your expertise to get it as close as possible to a viable screen at the first try..

It's a lot to ask I know..and I'm sure it wouldn't look good on the spectro. But with some careful planning beforehand, It might work..

I think the biggest concern will be the correct ratio for the white/ clear acrylic, to provide just enough translucency..

**cynical2** · **04-03-08, 10:42 PM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

Thanks Jim for the vote of confidence..

Unfortunately I only have 240ml. of the AAA, which I'm going to need, to do a whole screen with..
So I'm not going to be able to do any test panels...which means I have to get it right first pop..

I'm hoping to call on you guys for your expertise to get it as close as possible to a viable screen at the first try..

It's a lot to ask I know..and I'm sure it wouldn't look good on the spectro. But with some careful planning beforehand, It might work..

I think the biggest concern will be the correct ratio for the white/ clear acrylic, to provide just enough translucency..

Hey, worst case is it doesn't work as you hoped...a little bit of $$ and effort, but the gain of some knowledge that others will find useful (or, at a minimum, interesting).

Here's hoping you're right the 1st time!

**Harpmaker** · **04-04-08, 04:03 AM**

Prof.,

Using the AAA as a base coat might work, but it kind of overrides the reason for using AAA instead of a "regular" silver paint. May I suggest testing your idea first by using another, cheaper/more available silver paint (probably mica based

) in place of the AAA.

I forget, are you rolling or spraying your screen? If rolling, others have had problems using such high concentrations of metallic paint - they get roller marks.

And definitely keep us up to date on your project, we're rootin' for ya!

**MississippiMan** · **04-04-08, 07:03 AM**

If white screen performance combined with CR enhancement is desired, the use of a pure "painted on" reflective undercoating topped with a reflective/translucent coat is a well established and well documented application.

Dating back to 2003, (Behr) Silver Metallic / MississippiMud showed a quantum leap in performance in improving Contrast while maintaining "the original levels" of Whites and Colors.

Setting aside adverse comments and cutesy smileys

about Mica Based mixes, the 1:1:1 Top Coat of MMud (Behr UPW - Behr White Opal Pearlescence - Behr Deep Base ) created a translucent "off White" that both reflected original light without undue attenuation, and allowed both the absorption and thereby the enhancement of the projected light by the muted effect that the SM under layment could provide.

In effect, such screens were very light gray...and perfectly flat hued. SM/MM was a specific answer to the rather anemic performance GOO Digital Gray attempted to pass off as being the "Reference" at the time. GOO's base contained no reflective element at all, but even so, and as it remains so today, tt was no easy "do" to roll on such a Top Coat over such a dark Gray base, never mind one that had reflective elements within it.. As just pointed out previously, an even bigger issue was trying to get a non-streaky, roller mark-free surface laid down of the pure Silver Metallic.

So translucent was the 1:1:1 MMud mix, if it was applied to the correct "thinness", any underlying defect in surface consistency would be quite apparent. SM/MM was always a "Do it right and "WOW" kinda screen. But considering how much less adept and dedicated DIY'ers were 5 years ago, adding difficulty to a level of complexity was a quick route to frustration. Try showing such a increase in performance but make it "the unreachable goal" and you accomplish little but fostering frustration.

But............at the time I absolutely refrained from supporting the use of spray equipment, because I bought into the idea that DIY meant one had to be able to just pick up a Roller, swath on some paint, and he'd have a "Mfg Screen Killer" application. Or it wouldn't float.

But the continual lament over poor DIY performance, and the resistance to expensive Mfg.Screens and Mfg Paint-on Solutions within the DIY Community drove many to such extremes anyway. many were sated. About as many tried and died.

History's lessons may recede but they never really vanish. Technology, reduced costs, and experience/acceptance all combine to make previously implausible things plausible.

The acceptance of thinning Latex based paints beyond Paint Mfg suggestions:

The advent/acceptance of inexpensive Electric Turbine Spray Guns as painting
alternatives:

The effort toward determining the best possible Hues and Base mixes:

The increased desire to go to a place and to be able to do things previously unheard of:

..........all the above combine to make today's DIY'er more willing to accept the necessity of doing something as it "should be done", not how they would like to see it be done for pure convenience. In the past, those who railed against expecting too much from DIY'ers were a majority. Today, obviously, quite a few of you are willing to take things far beyond normal expectations...at least as far as verifying the development of ideal paint combinations.

The choice of the Application method of such is the only sticking point, and as more move toward accepting the use of reflective mixes and/or bases, it becomes obvious that Rolling just ceases to be an option if one is seeking the pinnacle of performance available from such applications.

Over yonder in AVS Country, I just recently stated how I was going to revisit the SM/Mm concept. Only this time taking the 4:1:1 mix into 4:2:1:1 territory (BB-UPW-AAA-Matte-Poly) as a Top Coat over pure Behr SM and Delta Sm, as well as over pure AAA, and comparing it to the original SM/MM.

Dark room performance always was the accepted standard. Only after SM/MM showed that enhanced CR could lead to real gains in Ambient Light performance without any resulting crush did the emphasis start to change. But that did not happen that fast either. First the Behr SM got axed in favor of the Light Fusion (mirror) concept to eliminate dealing with the Goopy SM. The MMud Top coat stayed the same, but spraying it on to the right "thinness" then became the issue at hand. Then people started clamoring for the Contrast performance SM/Mm had, and that the gain on the LF application had reduced. So the addition of Behr SM into MMud brought forth MMud-SE. at the ratio of 1:1:1 + 2-3 Oz SM (2004-5)

That advance helped tremendously, but as is so often the case, if you get "close', people expect you/it to go further....as well as backwards...or go away. Get rid of the need for a Mirror! Make the Mix more affordable and simple! Make it a "Roll-able' option! But it better be better than before!

A tall order.

I'll spare mentioning the next two alternative steps up the ladder toward the Lofty perch where Ambient Light performance reached, but that levels reached did spur some to try to accomplish exactly what I just stated above. And the results were as close to that Goal as they could get using those principles. But by trying to distance themselves from proven methods for whatever reasons, many effectively went down roads previously traveled and found the same potholes awaiting then others had busted their Rims on.

All that being said, and proverbially "Water under the Bridge", harking back to the use of a Silver (Aluminum IS Silver Metallic colored BTW) Metallic Base Coat topped by a Translucent White/Reflective Top Coat makes tremendous good sense.

I wish I'd though of that.

We can profit from past experiences, or be condemned by ignoring them. It seems that now, a few are getting the same ideas again. Well, it can't hurt.....too much.

So what will shake out? The use of AAA for a base? I think not. The far less expensive Behr SM, cut with Delta SM and water makes more sense. Top Coat? THAT is where all the expertise and time that has gone into finding neutral colors should be applied.

The creation of a Translucent White with a subtle, restrained amount of AAA would seem to be the best answer. Find that White that won't shift to blue when AAA is added, and I believe we all will find that "magic Screen" at the end of the DIY. Rainbow.

...............if you spray it, that is.

**mechman** · **04-04-08, 07:36 AM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

mech,

Actually I'm not looking to add the AAA to the white, because it would require a very small amount added to the white to keep it light and then you have the problem of scattered dispersion through the mix..

My latest thought (and they are just thoughts at the moment} is to do a two coat application..
The first coat consisting of a concentrated mix (probably about 2:1) of clear matte acrylic and AAA..
This should give a good concentration of AAA across the screen..
Also,If there is any sheen from the base of the AAA, then the addition of the matte acrylic should also help to reduce this..
The top coat will be the white with clear matte acrylic added to it, in an attempt to reduce the opacity of the white and allow some of the AAA base coat to come through as a partial reflector..

With the addition of the clear matte acrylic to the mixes, I'm hoping that this might give some extra depth to the image as well..

I may be wrong, but I think this would give me something above an N9.5 screen, and with a gain above a normal grey screen..

I would be interested to hear from you or anyone else as to whether it's a stupid idea or whether it has some merit..

Prof.,

Floating somewhere around here are the experiments I did with a clear matte poly/protectorant/acrylic. When used as a topcoat it nullified the aluminum. I'm not sure of the effects it would have on it when mixed with it, but I'd love to know how it turns out!

The CGiv is around a N9.5 screen, however I had trouble finding the outdoor matte poly here, so I'm sure it'd be virtually impossible there...

**mechman** · **04-04-08, 07:40 AM**

Quote:

Prof. wrote:

I may be wrong, but I think this would give me something above an N9.5 screen, and with a gain above a normal grey screen..

One other thing, the spectrum of the dulux white *appears* to be >N9.5, did you want to darken it up? Sorry I haven't been around much the past couple days but I've been busy.

When it rains it pours...

**MississippiMan** · **04-04-08, 08:15 AM**

Mech,

What is your opinion, and / or your thoughts on the Pure Silver Metallic underlayment / AAA/White Top Coat concept?

I didn't want to clutter up your thread with uninvited or unwelcome 5 year old representations, but I do think it would be a error to dismiss previous work that has accomplished essentially what is being sought after here...at least in the realm of "lighter hued" Gray screens that still offer significant CR improvement without crushing whites.

I think my post deserves at least that much of a response. Please?

**mechman** · **04-04-08, 11:39 AM**

Quote:

MississippiMan wrote:

Mech,

What is your opinion, and / or your thoughts on the Pure Silver Metallic underlayment / AAA/White Top Coat concept?

I didn't want to clutter up your thread with uninvited or unwelcome 5 year old representations, but I do think it would be a error to dismiss previous work that has accomplished essentially what is being sought after here...at least in the realm of "lighter hued" Gray screens that still offer significant CR improvement without crushing whites.

I think my post deserves at least that much of a response. Please?

MMan,

I didn't realize you were asking a question.

Do you have measurements of this? I have very little exposure to any silver metallics and I'm not one to recommend mica's yet as I've yet to find one that doesn't refract instead of reflect. But it would probably be interesting to try if you could find a decent silver metallic. May need to talk to harp about that.

I thought you were gonna try this (BW) on a mirror? At least that's what I thought Bill had mentioned to me...

**benven** · **04-04-08, 02:03 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

The CGiv is around a N9.5 screen, however I had trouble finding the outdoor matte poly here, so I'm sure it'd be virtually impossible there...

Clarification, it's not outdoor matte poly, it is outdoor satin poly in CGIV.

**Harpmaker** · **04-04-08, 03:56 PM**

MMan,

I used the cutesy smiley when suggesting a mica-based silver paint be used as a base coat because most on this forum have abandoned such because of the prismatic effect these paints exhibit. This attribute of mica paints may not be a problem when used as a reflective base.

I'm new to the DIY Screen world (about 6 months) and I have never heard of SM/MM. Thanks for bringing it up (although a new thread should probably be started if this avenue is followed).

A cheaper metallic silver paint to try is "Craft Smart Metallic Silver" sold exclusively at Michael's. In my testing, this paint has NOT shown any prismatic effect. When mixed with other paints, it takes much more of it to equal the darkness of AAA in the same mix so it can't be used as a direct AAA replacement.

**MississippiMan** · **04-05-08, 12:00 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

MMan,

I didn't realize you were asking a question.

Do you have measurements of this? I have very little exposure to any silver metallics and I'm not one to recommend mica's yet as I've yet to find one that doesn't refract instead of reflect. But it would probably be interesting to try if you could find a decent silver metallic. May need to talk to harp about that.

I thought you were gonna try this (BW) on a mirror? At least that's what I thought Bill had mentioned to me...

The only "measurements" taken were the significant number of favorable reviews SM/MM received,application issues not withstanding. As I stated, there were some who "Died". In any event now that some are seeing the potential significance of a Darker Silver Metallic as a Base, SM/MM in some incarnation should be revisited.

Yes....the marriage of BW (dark) and a Acrylic Mirror is eminent.

...and a good deal more.

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

MMan,

I used the cutesy smiley when suggesting a mica-based silver paint be used as a base coat because most on this forum have abandoned such because of the prismatic effect these paints exhibit. This attribute of mica paints may not be a problem when used as a reflective base.

Harp....,

If the Micas were so inferior, the Mixes and their representative applications would not return the results they do. Let me say this, AAA vs SM-Mica is more complex an issue, and it has not been predetermined as to Mica having lost the War. Most of the desirable properties and the caveats of Mica are "Mirrored" in Aluminum, with the latter having it's own obvious and particular "Good and Bad" issues as well.

Whichever wins out (if one does) will be because more attributes than issues can be utilized to the desired effect.

**Prof.** · **04-05-08, 06:02 PM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Prof.,

Using the AAA as a base coat might work, but it kind of overrides the reason for using AAA instead of a "regular" silver paint. May I suggest testing your idea first by using another, cheaper/more available silver paint (probably mica based

) in place of the AAA.

I forget, are you rolling or spraying your screen? If rolling, others have had problems using such high concentrations of metallic paint - they get roller marks.

And definitely keep us up to date on your project, we're rootin' for ya!

Thanks Harp,

Using an alternative silver for the base coat presents a bit of a problem..
All of the commercial water based silvers that I've looked at down here previously, were more grey than silver and the only real silver finish I ever found was an oil based paint..

There are evidently better silvers available in Craft paint acrylics..so I'll have to take a further look at that..

I will be rolling the paint (no equipment or suitable space for spraying) so I'll probably have to use a watered down mix to prevent roller marks..
I'll be rolling the screen laying flat on trestles, as I did with my current screen, and I didn't get any roller marks on that..

**Prof.** · **04-05-08, 06:30 PM**

Quote:

MississippiMan wrote:

We can profit from past experiences, or be condemned by ignoring them. It seems that now, a few are getting the same ideas again. Well, it can't hurt.....too much.

So what will shake out? The use of AAA for a base? I think not. The far less expensive Behr SM, cut with Delta SM and water makes more sense. Top Coat? THAT is where all the expertise and time that has gone into finding neutral colors should be applied.

The creation of a Translucent White with a subtle, restrained amount of AAA would seem to be the best answer. Find that White that won't shift to blue when AAA is added, and I believe we all will find that "magic Screen" at the end of the DIY. Rainbow.

...............if you spray it, that is.

MMan,

As I've just mentioned in the previous post, I only have the capability of rolli

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