Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

[Harpmaker]

I took some photos of the test panels of the three C&S mixes plus a panel of RS-MaxxMudd-LL.

The panels are, from Left to Right:
1. Kilz2
2. RS-MaxxMudd-LL
3. C&S #1
4. C&S #2
5. C&S #3

I'll give a C&S formula summery at the end of the post.

I need to discuss RS-MaxxMudd-LL a bit. The formula I used was one MissippiMan posted on another forum after he posted a similar one in this thread. I used the newer version from his last post. It is as follows:

RS-MaxxMudd-LL (low lumen)
16 oz Delta pearl
8 oz Delta silver metallic
10 oz UPW #1050
2 oz Folk Art Champagne Gold metallic
14 oz Minwax Polycrylic Polyurethane Satin finish
14 oz distilled water

I divided all ingredients by 8 to make a smaller batch. As is my normal routine, everything was measured using medical syringes.

I made a sample chit of the mix before I added the gold to it and then one after adding the gold. It's ironic that while the gold was added to neutralize the blue push of the silver, it actually made the mix less neutral. There is enough "warmth" in the Pearl and UPW to more than balance the silver.

RS-MaxMudd=LL
L*a*b* 87.31, -0.81, 2.45
RGB 219, 219, 214

RS-MaxMudd-LL without the gold
L*a*b* 87.58, -0.73, 1.22
RGB 219, 220, 217

I made the panel using the "real" RS-MaxxMudd-LL formula with the gold.

One more thing needs to be said about this mix. With my PJ and the way it is setup (a little higer than table height) it does hot-spot. This will be visible in the photos.

I would have liked to make a panel of Tony's mix, but I just can't force myself to buy a quart of Behr metallic silver for $20 when I have no other use for it.

The first photo was taken with flash on the auto setting


The first panel is the lightest (Kilz2) and the second is the darkest (RS-MM-LL). This is what the spectro results show as well. The RS-MM-LL panel doesn't hot-spot under camera flash.

Panels at 90 degrees under white PJ light


The RS-MM-LL panel is clearly brighter at the bottom than the top. At the bottom it is even brighter than the Kilz2 panel. The fourth panel (C&S #2) appears to be slightly brighter than the lighter third panel (C&S #1). I believe this is because of the very small, but visible, amount of sheen added by using the Valspar latex enamel instead of just the regular Valspar latex in the C&S #2 mix.

Color bars at 90 degrees


Again, hot-spotting visible in the second panel. The fourth panel still appears to be just a tad brighter than the third panel. These differences are very subtle.

Gray bars at 90 degrees


This shot primarily shows the video clipping of my crappy PJ (this is a JPG image). I might have been able to play with the brightness and contrast settings to get a slightly better image, but it's questionable, and not worth the time to bring out a few more shades of gray in the image.

White image at 45 degrees


The second panel has dropped in brightness drastically because of it's viewing cone. The fourth panel has also dropped slightly in brightness, but the change isn't as radical; it still compares nicely to the Kilz2 panel.

Color bars at 45 degrees


I don't know if my eyes are playing tricks on me or if the third panel is really a smidgen brighter than the Kilz2 at this angle.

Gray bars at 45 degrees


White image at ~170 degrees


That third panel (C&S #1) still looks the brightest to me.

Color bars at ~170 degrees


Gray bars at ~170 degrees


It's getting hard to distinguish between the fourth and fifth panels at this angle, which shows the slight viewing cone of the fourth panel. Would anyone really watch a movie at this angle? I don't think so.

Summation
The best Cream&Sugar mix seems to be the original C&S #1. The main reason to use the other C&S mixes would be to save money by not having to buy a full gallon of the base paint.

Currently, C&S #1 and C&S #3 must be made with specific base paints. C&S #2 can be made with Behr UPW and Lowe's Valspar Ultra White paints, also it can be made with either the plain flat latex or flat latex enamels in those brands. I suspect most bright white interior house paints would work as well.

I can't recommend RS-MaxxMudd-LL for what I hope are obvious reasons. I do think that with a little tweaking to fix hot-spotting (and leaving out the gold ) this mix could be a contender.

Cream&Sugar formulae

C&S #1
2 parts Sherwin-Williams Luminous White flat latex (Sherwin-Williams stores)
1 part Craft Smart Metallic Silver (Michael's craft stores)

C&S #2
8 parts bright white interior flat latex house paint. Behr UPW and Lowe's Valspar Ultra White have been tested.
2 parts Craft Smart Metallic Silver
1 part Craft Smart Metallic Gold
1 part Craft Smart Metallic Bronze

I know this seems like a complicated formula, but it really is just a quart of white paint plus one 8 oz bottle of silver, a 4 oz bottle of gold and a 4 oz bottle of bronze.

C&S #3
2 parts True Value Trucolor "Refinement" int. flat latex (True Value hardware stores)
1 part Craft Smart Metallic Silver

[mechman]

Don,



Nice job! It turned out as I suspected it would. I promise I'm gonna get this up in the stickies today!

The RS mix hot spots and appears to have an awful viewing cone. We've always said it was because of the cheap mica but I think you've proven us wrong with C&S!

[Prof.]

Very interesting and very comprehensive Harp..

I'm very surprised that the RS mix hotspots like that..
Obviously the mix produces some reasonable gain and hence the limited viewing cone..

It looks like you hit the right mix first off, with C&S 1..Which makes it a very simple and effective DIY screen paint..::

Well done..

[Harpmaker]

, one and all.

After pondering a bit, I think the reason C&S #1 works the best is because it has the most visible sparkles in it.

My sample chit of the Valspar enamel tinted to match TV "Refinement" has dried enough so I can take a valid spectro reading. The spectral curve isn't exactly the same as "Refinement", but it is close enough for further testing. In fact, very early tests using it as a base for C&S #3 are good enough that a full test panel will be done.

[tweakophyte]

My monitor is old... but to me it looks like Kilz is at a similar grey-level as the C&S mixes. What am I missing? I thought C&S was considered N9 and Kilz was whiter.

How are the black levels by your eyes? Again my monitor is too old for me to tell.

Thanks,

[Harpmaker]

tweakophyte wrote:

My monitor is old... but to me it looks like Kilz is at a similar grey-level as the C&S mixes. What am I missing? I thought C&S was considered N9 and Kilz was whiter.

Kilz2 is not the whitest white, but it is a paint that most DIY screen painters have, and is usually what a screen is primed with.

Some "brightness" numbers for white paint (at least my cans of them):
Kilz2 92.29
Ace Hardware Ultra White flat latex 96.47
Sherwin-Williams Luminous White 96.81
Behr UPW #1050 flat latex 97.19
Valspar int. flat Ultra White enamel 97.32

These are the L* values from the L*a*b* measurements. 100 would be 100% white and 0 100% black. In the real world those top and bottom values are never achieved. The L* value is also very close to what the Munsell N value for the color would be, so close as to be interchangeable for most purposes.

The same value from the C&S mixes are:
C&S #1 90.31
C&S #2 88.38
C&S #3 89.04

It's interesting that I didn't notice this before, but C&S #3 should be visibly brighter than C&S #2, but yet the opposite is shown under PJ light. I attribute this to the sheen from the enamel used to make C&S #2 and/or perhaps the base paint of C&S #3 was muting the reflective qualities of the metallic silver more.

As for laminates recommended for white screens:
Wilsonart Designer White 93.3
Parkland Plastics Polywall 93.4

I don't know what your Do-Able is.

To answer your question , while Kilz2 is brighter than the C&S mixes, it's not a lot brighter. The C&S mixes are also quite a bit more neutral than Kilz2.

My general understanding of screens is that the brighter white the screen is, the more any ambient light, or even PJ light reflected back onto the screen from ceiling and walls, causes problems.

How are the black levels by your eyes? Again my monitor is too old for me to tell.

Thanks,

Funny you should ask. I was watching some movies on the composite white screen I used for my post and played scenes from a number of different movies. My general thought was "Wow, this white screen stuff isn't so bad.", but then I played a movie I've taken screenies of before ("The Fifth Element") and I didn't watch it long before I was saying to myself "Where the heck did the colors go?". I tried adjusting the PJ and nothing I could do made the picture look like I remembered it under a gray screen.

I would say that the contrast level (range between white and black) was about the same for the white screens. I didn't find myself going "Where are the blacks?", but instead, the whole image lacked "snap" for want of a better word.

I still consider myself to be new at this PJ stuff, so I hesitate to make a recommendation of screen type for others, but as for me; I'm a gray screen man!

BTW, I'm going to be doing another thread called "Why "screenies" don't matter" soon using photos I took from the above white screen.

[tweakophyte]

Thanks for the reply. By being a grey-screen man are you saying you are going darker than your C&S mix?

[Harpmaker]

tweakophyte wrote:

Thanks for the reply. By being a grey-screen man are you saying you are going darker than your C&S mix?

WAY darker!

C&S was an off-shoot from my main area of research, which is making a darker screen than even Black Widow was giving me. I think the C&S mixes are pretty good and easy light-screen solutions, especially C&S #1, but I developed them for use by others. As soon as I make this last panel using the Valspar "Refinement" clone I'll publish the data at Lumen Labs where light-colored screens are almost a must because of their home-made PJ's lack of lumens.

I have an odd situation in that I want to make my screen smaller not bigger. My PJ has lots of lumens and I have it turned down almost as low as it can go with my current 75" screen and I want to go down to a 60 incher soon (long story). My PJ has no threads for a ND filter so I have to "adjust" my brightness by going to a darker screen than most people would want.

[mechman]

Harpmaker wrote:

BTW, I'm going to be doing another thread called "Why "screenies" don't matter" soon using photos I took from the above white screen.

Oooooooooo! I'm really looking forward to this!! Screenshots are nice and everything, but the hard data is the real thing of importance.

Harpmaker wrote:

C&S was an off-shoot from my main area of research, which is making a darker screen than even Black Widow was giving me. I think the C&S mixes are pretty good and easy light-screen solutions, especially C&S #1, but I developed them for use by others. As soon as I make this last panel using the Valspar "Refinement" clone I'll publish the data at Lumen Labs where light-colored screens are almost a must because of their home-made PJ's lack of lumens.

From what little I gathered there before tiddler ran us all off, those guys have as many lumens as I have - 450 or so video optimized. You do realize you may be opening up a can of worms there as well right? Honestly Don, if I were you, I'd just leave it here. They'll find it if they really want to. If you do head over there though, bump the chat thread!

[wbassett]

Harpmaker wrote:

BTW, I'm going to be doing another thread called "Why "screenies" don't matter" soon using photos I took from the above white screen.

mechman wrote:

Oooooooooo! I'm really looking forward to this!! Screenshots are nice and everything, but the hard data is the real thing of importance.

I agree and disagree.

I think they both go hand in hand. The data shows why it works and although screenies really are mainly eye candy, they can show how well it works. Kinda like reading all the specs and technical details of a high performance car but you really don't appreciate all those specs and R&D until you take it for a drive.

Empirical alone can be highly subjective though, but when you combine the two it's a pretty powerful statement. We can discuss and debate this more in your new thread. Should be a fun and interesting topic!

[Prof.]

wbassett wrote:

I agree and disagree.

I think they both go hand in hand. The data shows why it works and although screenies really are mainly eye candy, they can show how well it works. Kinda like reading all the specs and technical details of a high performance car but you really don't appreciate all those specs and R&D until you take it for a drive.

Totally agree...
You can have all the specs and graphs and colour spectrum analysis's in the world,..but until you can actually see the results in the medium that we work in, ie the actual screen image, it doesn't account for a lot..
"The proof's in the pudding", as they say..

[kbgl]

Harpmaker wrote:

WAY darker!

I have an odd situation in that I want to make my screen smaller not bigger. My PJ has lots of lumens and I have it turned down almost as low as it can go with my current 75" screen and I want to go down to a 60 incher soon (long story). My PJ has no threads for a ND filter so I have to "adjust" my brightness by going to a darker screen than most people would want.

I'm just coming back from the dark side myself! I made a screen with about 12/32 ounces of black pigment in a quart. I used a mix of flat and semigloss to add some sheen. You likely will want to go even darker, but that shade worked OK on a 90" screen with my IN72. I recently tried a lighter gray, and also a white screen. I prefer the light gray over the white, and also over the dark gray with most shows.

[mechman]

kbgl wrote:

I made a screen with about 12/32 ounces of black pigment in a quart.

Tree,

Now why would you go and do that when there are numerous matches for just about every Munsell known to mankind already out there? You could have just walked in and said "I'd like a quart of Winter Mist (or Winter Mountain or whatever) in a flat enamel"?

[kbgl]

mechman wrote:

Tree,

Now why would you go and do that when there are numerous matches for just about every Munsell known to mankind already out there? You could have just walked in and said "I'd like a quart of Winter Mist (or Winter Mountain or whatever) in a flat enamel"?

The grays I mixed are much darker than the two you mention, and I like to do things the hard way sometimes too. But mostly, the locals that mix my paint have messed my paint up several times. I was able to use some tinted wall paint that was left over from painting my HT room, so I saved a few bucks as well. I was also experimenting with sheen by adding semi-gloss. I used over 60% semi-gloss with no hotspotting that I could see.

[shaolin95]

Ok, I want to give this a try so just need some clarifications.
All I need is the following?
Smart Metallic Silver
Luminous White (or Bermuda Beige?)
No primer (whatever that is).
Roller (which type?)
Thanks

[Harpmaker]

shaolin95 wrote:

Ok, I want to give this a try so just need some clarifications.
All I need is the following?
Smart Metallic Silver

Craft Smart Metallic Silver. This is only available at Michael's craft stores.

Luminous White (or Bermuda Beige?)

This would be the mix called C&S #1 (Cream&Sugar #1).
NO Bermuda Beige! You want Sherwin-Williams Luminous White. This must be Sherwin-Williams brand paint.

No primer (whatever that is).

I would always recommend using a primer as a base coat. A primer is designed to do several things that regular house paints don't do as well; things like being a sealer so that anything that was on the object being painted before will not stain the new paint that goes over top of the primer. Primer also is designed to allow most other paints to stick to it very well.

In the case of DIY screen paints, primer also gives us a known whitish color to paint over. If you would paint over an exiting paint job, that color paint might influence the color of the screen paint by showing through just the slightest bit.

Many people, including me, use Kilz2 primer.

Roller (which type?)

I don't roll so someone else will have to answer this question. All I know is that a 1/4 inch nap roller is preferred over the longer nap rollers.

Thanks

Your Welcome!

Just as a reminder, C&S #2 and C&S #3 mixes will give good screens as well and their base paints can be purchased in quarts at Lowe's.

I'll be posting some more info on the Lowe's Valspar latex enamel clone of True Value "Refinement" soon. It works as good as, or better than, the True Value paint for making C&S #3.

[shaolin95]

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer.
I was looking at your tests and I thought mix 1 was the preferred one but it seems the other two are good choices as well....decisions decisions...are they all pretty much as dark...or is the C&S3 similar to BW?

[Harpmaker]

shaolin95 wrote:

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer.
I was looking at your tests and I thought mix 1 was the preferred one but it seems the other two are good choices as well....decisions decisions...are they all pretty much as dark...or is the C&S3 similar to BW?

C&S #1 is the lightest of the three mixes, but only by the smallest amount; unless they are held side-by-side it is very hard to tell the difference. Look at the first photo in post #51 of this thread to see what the various test panels look like using a camera flash.

C&S does not compare with Black Widow at all. The BW mixes are much more reflective and much darker than the C&S mixes. The dark gray panels in the first post of this thread are BW mixes.

The C&S mixes are just dark enough to help give slightly better colors and blacks compared to a white screen.

I came up with C&S #2 and C&S #3 simply to give a formula that can use a base paint that is available in quarts. At least in my area, Luminous White is only sold in gallons.

C&S #2 can be mixed with about any bright white paint. I would recommend using either Valspar Ultra White flat latex enamel or Behr #1850 Ultra Pure White flat latex enamel. The only "problem" with this mix is that it is a bit more complicated to make since you have to add 3 different paints to the white base; I think that is off-set by being able to use most bright white paints as a base.

C&S #3 was developed to get away from the complexity of C&S #2 and yet be able to buy just a quart of base paint. The base for it is True Value "Refinement". Many people don't have a True Value store near them so I have come up with a clone of that color (which is a VERY VERY light orange-pink) using Valspar flat enamel from Lowe's. If you wanted to use the Behr paints from Home Depot, I think they also could match "Refinement", but not via computer since it is too close to white; I would take in the written formula and have them do a manual mix. More on that when I post my latest findings.

[shaolin95]

I will keep an eye to your follow up information although I may go out and buy some stuff just to have some on the weekend.