Further Investigations Part III

[mechman]

I thought they both looked almost identical to tell the truth. But as I said, they were still wet.

As for the Ben Moore, just another base to try. I can get it as well but I'm knee deep in stuff and the wife is leaving for Australia in a little over a week. It's up to you. I can do it. But it would have to wait a bit. And I just figured why bother mimicking each other when we can expand. Get a flat and a matte/flat enamel maybe?

[Harpmaker]

mechman wrote:

It's up to you. I can do it. But it would have to wait a bit. And I just figured why bother mimicking each other when we can expand. Get a flat and a matte/flat enamel maybe?

I'll see what I can find.

[mechman]

Since the two small samples of coarse and medium AAA have dried you can really tell the difference between the two! The coarse appears a bit coarser.







Spectro readings

Coarse

148 151 151
0.309 0.328 30.5
62.1 -0.80 -0.76
6669.1

Medium

144 146 149
0.307 0.325 28.7
60.5 -0.45 -1.76
6825.1

And because I bought it...

Pearlizing White

211 200 190
0.328 0.341 59.0
81.3 1.78 6.73
5660.6

The spectrum graph.



Now I'm off to mow the lawn!

[custard]

mech - it will be interesting to see if bermuda beige/s0907 still keep the mix neutral when using coarse and medium AAA

by the way i have ordered my bottles of the different AAA

[Prof.]

mechman wrote:

I can get it as well but I'm knee deep in stuff and the wife is leaving for Australia in a little over a week.

Once she's seen Australia, she may not want to come back!!

[mechman]

After the amount of time it takes to get there, I don't think I'd want to come back either! Twenty something hours in planes and airports. And another 5 or six on buses trains once she gets to Sydney. That's way too long in a tube if you ask me!

[mechman]

The panels that I'm using for the PPG Grand Distinction were primed yesterday and I just started mixing and painting today. The first mix that I mixed up is PPG Flat - AAA/Medium. My initial thoughts are that we're either on something or onto something. This mix looks much lighter that all of the 4:1 AAA/fine mixes. By eye, I'd guess it's between Winter Mist and Winter Mountain. Which would put it in the 210 range.

Confusing and yet interesting!

[mechman]

The various players:





I included the formula for Bermuda Beige in a quart just in case someone would need it.

[mechman]

The coarse appears to be the same as medium. It's a lighter gray than fine.

I'll have spectro readings of all of these tonight. I also made up a sample of the PPG flat and flat enamel so I can double check it's accuracy in case it's off. It doesn't appear to be though.

[custard]

keep it coming mech.
the medium AAA sounds quite promising, hopefully if its not too grainy you may have just found the elusive lighter black widow

[Harpmaker]

I just got back from purchasing a quart of Benjamin Moore "Regal" paint in a matte finish. The store is one of a local hardware chain (about 6 stores in a 30 mile radius). "Regal" was the only BM sub-brand they sell; no "Aura" or "Colorscapes".

They had no problem finding PPG Bermuda Beige in their computer, but the guy had to manually divide the numbers for the gallon formula to mix a quart. Tint was added manually as well.

The formula for a quart tinted Bermuda Beige is:
OY-0x-3.00
RX-0x-1.25
BK-0x-0.25
GY-0x-2.00

After talking to the store employee and viewing BM's website, I still don't know what the difference is between the matte and flat paints in the "Regal" line. I could see no difference between them in the stores Gloss Level display, and on the BM Gloss Level Chart one sample is labeled "Flat/Matte". The flat was a $10 dollars cheaper per gallon. As far as I can tell, all the "Regal" paints are enamels.

[mechman]

Well custy, let's just say I'm cautiously optimistic! But there does appear to be some pitfalls! I'm not sure why but there are an inordinate number of bubbles forming. It's creating the air pockets in which the aluminum settles and when it pops - - it forms a concentrated area of aluminum. Me thinks we'll see some sparklies with these! It will be interesting to see how harp's spraying turns out!

I have 3.667 of 6 done. I took my foam panels and split them in half - half flat enamel/half flat. I'm putting on three coats. The PPG Flat/AAA Fine was same as BW. But we already knew that as it had already been tested. I had some of that mix left and I used that instead of mixing more.

***note*** All of these numbers appear to be pretty much the same post bug. ***note***

Some numbers to fling out there:

PPG Bermuda Beige 427-2 via EasyRGB

233 211 199
0.337 0.341 67.7
85.8 5.79 8.46

Menards PPG Grand Distinction Flat Bermuda Beige (Gallon)

235 214 202
0.337 0.342 70.0
87.0 5.31 8.55

Menards PPG Grand Distinction Flat Bermuda Beige (quart)

236 215 202
0.337 0.343 70.7
87.3 5.14 9.04

Menards PPG Grand Distinction Flat Enamel Bermuda Beige (Gallon)

235 214 201
0.338 0.343 70.0
87.0 5.15 9.05

Spectrum



I have to go put my final coat of the PPG FE Med on, mix up some PPG FE Coarse, put on a coat of that, and then come get Prof. some measurements. Abracadabra! It's a working night for me!

[mechman]

We have achieved failure.

All samples have a red push to them except for fine. Coarse and medium AAA will require a different base. I only came to realize this after bringing a couple of my panels inside to measure them. I painted them in the garage. My garage is lit by fluorescent lights. All of the panels looked fine out in the garage but the second I looked at them under incandescent lighting I knew it was bad. They look similar to the Behr 4850 AAA sample. These were all samples done with PPG Grand Distinction. I did one small sample of Valspar UP flat enamel with both the coarse and the medium AAA and they exhibit the same reddish gray look. Those samples will be dry tomorrow.

All of the numbers in black are the original, i1 calibrated to the bug numbers. The blue numbers in bold are the new, i1 calibrated to the white tile numbers. -mech 7/23/08

For tonight

PPG GD Flat - Medium AAA

231 225 221
0.320 0.333 75.9
89.8 1.66 2.41
6120.6

208 202 200
0.319 0.332 59.9
81.8 1.58 2.07
6166.1

PPG GD Flat Enamel - Medium AAA

234 225 220
0.322 0.334 76.3
90.0 2.28 3.29
5978.1

210 202 198
0.322 0.334 59.9
81.8 2.15 2.93
6004.1

PPG GD Flat - Coarse AAA

240 229 223
0.324 0.335 80.0
91.7 2.66 4.14
5883.4

216 207 201
0.324 0.335 63.3
83.6 2.41 3.74
5898.2

PPG GD Flat - Fine AAA

193 193 194
0.312 0.328 53.4
78.1 -0.14 -0.31
6553.6

192 192 192
0.312 0.329 52.7
77.7 -0.09 -0.16
6530.3 <-- I used the Lab values to calculate this at Lindbloom.

My investigations into the coarse and medium are on hold until we can digest this information and we can all brainstorm. I'm fairly certain I can find a base for them. But I don't think I can do it before my wife heads out to Prof.'s land of milk and honey. There's one other possibility. It's slim but worth checking. My AAA could be a bad batch. Reaching I know, but still a possibility.

So from here I will proceed with investigating the differences between flat and flat enamel with AAA fine.

Outside of measuring the Silver Pearl, it was a pretty cruddy day!

[mechman]

Ok I did a touch of brainstorming per how Bill and I solved AAA-fine. If my thinking is correct, the PPG flat enamel medium AAA should be around 220ish when I finish the base. Don't bet on it though as this is all theory! The flat coarse AAA should end up around the same and they both should be able to use the same base.

Call me in eight months. I gotta go to the candy store tomorrow.

[custard]

mech - i the only failure is that the bermuda beige does not mix well with the medium/coarse AAA.
the big plus point is that a lighter black widow may have been found.
for me you achieved more positives than negatives

what i can't understand is how can the the addition of the AAA (coarse/medium)to bermuda beige actually lighten the mix more than the original 233,211,199 values
the mixing of two colours usually results in a mix somewhere in between the two....

can you test an image anyway on the screens to check for sparklies/grainyness??

i suppose i can't test the AAA until a suitable base is found

[Harpmaker]

That is some pretty amazing data mech! Who wud a thunk it!

I probably won't get to spraying any test panels today (gotta install an air conditioner in my shop first), but I will most certainly make up some sample chits.

Just thinking out loud, but besides coming up with a new tint that works for AAA-M and AAA-C, it would be cool to perhaps have a conversion mix to change a quart of BB to the new tint. Depending on how much paint this would take, it might be totally impractical.

That's what I get for making suggestions before having coffee at 7AM.

[mechman]

Houston, mech has a problem! I'm glad you picked up on it right away custy, cause I didn't! After plugging away at this stuff all day yesterday, I awoke today to take a fresh look at these readings and say "bugger"! It also didn't hurt that harp pm'd me that his readings of the Silver Pearl were a bit darker than mine. So after a bit of shaking my head I started to try and figure out what happened and why.All of the measurements were off but the some of them turned out fine - such as the Bermuda Beige readings and the Black Widow reading made with PPG flat. But all of the coarse and medium readings are off. As well as Prof.'s Silver Pearl readings. So what could have gone wrong?

BabelColor will not let me take any measurements before calibrating on the CalPlaque. And I'm pretty religious about re-calibrating every 15 minutes or so. I keep the i1 and the CalPlaques on a shelf to the right of my desk. I pulled it out and found a dead bug on the white tile. It's the only thing that I can think off that could have caused all of this but who knows. Here's the bug:



I'm never afraid to say I'm wrong or that my readings are off. And some of these are wrong and off. I'll be re-doing them today! I've got the CalPlaque cleaned off and I intend to keep it clean and check it from now on. I'll be editing the data from yesterday with the new stuff from today.

[mechman]

Before I move over to the Silver Pearl thread and re-do those measurements over there, I'd like to add that we won't be getting any 220s/N8.5s out of Coarse or Medium AAA. At least not with these mixes. I do still believe I can bring them into neutral. That will be my goal along with reviewing the differences between fine/medium/coarse AAA.

I did figure out the bubbles yesterday and I believe it was my rolling technique. I was being too gentle and it was creating bubbles. I'm going to trash the panels I've already done and redo them. I'm leaning towards spraying when I get the neutral part figured out. I beleive all of these setbacks have pushed this all back to when my wife returns from Australia.

[custard]

ive just had a look at your revised figures. even though we may not achieve 220 (n8.5) i still think we can achieve something between 210-215 which is still about n8.3 so not too far off.

i dont know if this will make sense to you but my assumption is made on the view that because we now have a red push, it will be the rgb values of blue and green that need to increase to bring things back to neutral.
red will stay the same.

so the value of red in the black widow mixes when spectroing will be what we can achieve


am i going nuts

[wbassett]

mechman wrote:

Before I move over to the Silver Pearl thread and re-do those measurements over there, I'd like to add that we won't be getting any 220s/N8.5s out of Coarse or Medium AAA. At least not with these mixes. I do still believe I can bring them into neutral. That will be my goal along with reviewing the differences between fine/medium/coarse AAA.

I did figure out the bubbles yesterday and I believe it was my rolling technique. I was being too gentle and it was creating bubbles. I'm going to trash the panels I've already done and redo them. I'm leaning towards spraying when I get the neutral part figured out. I beleive all of these setbacks have pushed this all back to when my wife returns from Australia.

Sounds like the problem I had with BJ and trying to use a foam roller. After switching to a good quality low nap roller everything went fine.

[mechman]

Custy,

No, it goes the other way. We bring the red and green down to match the blue. It'll end up around 200 or so... maybe.

Bill,

It was all in the technique on my part. I was getting too fancy trying not to splash paint all over the other half of the panel. And I cannot, for the life of me, find decent quality 6" roller covers. Going up to a 9 inch roller would raise the cost of all the testing significantly as I'd have to mix more paint to waste in the roller. Yesterday I was only mixing up 10oz and I'd have about half left. To fill a 9" roller pan and a 9" roller is probably 5oz of paint I'd guess. Where's muzz when I need him?!?!?! lol! HD is the only store that even carries 6" 1/4" nap roller covers around me. And I've looked at a lot of different places.

[custard]

mechman wrote:

Custy,

No, it goes the other way. We bring the red and green down to match the blue. It'll end up around 200 or so... maybe.

:

i think that would be the case if the initial mix had a blue push i.e. when using a white base - we have to reduce the blue and green because we cannot increase the red any further.

of course reducing the red and green in the bermuda beige would result in a neutral mix for course/medium, but would mean we would be going darker to the 200 you have mentioned.

we can also increase green and blue until we match red because they are not at their maximum values hence having a lighter mix.


........... i think

i'm thinking with values of 240,230,225 may be a good starting point.
i can start testing my theory when i receive the aaa i have ordered as i we are now stuck at the point of needing a new base. theres no harm in trying. what do you think?

[wbassett]

custard wrote:

ive just had a look at your revised figures. even though we may not achieve 220 (n8.5) i still think we can achieve something between 210-215 which is still about n8.3 so not too far off.

i dont know if this will make sense to you but my assumption is made on the view that because we now have a red push, it will be the rgb values of blue and green that need to increase to bring things back to neutral.
red will stay the same.

so the value of red in the black widow mixes when spectroing will be what we can achieve


am i going nuts

You're not nuts

However don't think light, think like paint... as they say in acting school, become one with the paint... be the paint...

Instead of RGB, think RBY... or more appropriately CMYK.
It can be a bit of a mind bender when we go from talking about additive colors like our projectors make (RGB) and then subtractive colors (RBY) like how paints and pigments work.

Many a people have almost had brain hemorrhage trying to tweak using RGB instead of CMYK

I am totally swamped at work and haven't had a chance to really look into this, but based on the readings and a quick glance I'd go with a base of something like SW Diffused Light (1045) mech let me know if you concur and when I have more time I'll dig deeper into it. Basically you want to bring Cyan up around 3, Magenta down around 1.6, and Yellow down around 4 point values to even it out.

If you want to lighten or darken it, move K (black) up and down a little.

mech let me know what you think and we can kick this around some more.

[custard]

thaks for the info bill

i understand when adding paint it is not lightening but darkening the mix.

it is abit confusing for me

call me crazy but i would still like to test a lighter base

[mechman]

I've calc'd out adding cyan and magenta. My base for coarse came to almost a dead match with True Value - Tawny Birch 219 209 204. My RGB calc was for a 219 209 205.

For the medium it was the same adding cyan and magenta to drop the red and green. That base came out to 222 208 201. Pratt and Lambert Hare might work there 226 211 204, Martin Senour Sentimental Mauve - 227 215 206, Dunn Edwards Gallery Gray 223 210 203, Ben Moore 1240 230 215 209, BM Soft Sand 217 203 195... I'll check with you later tonight though to make sure I'm plugging these in right.