Further Investigations Part III

**mechman** · **07-23-08, 06:40 PM**

Quote:

custard wrote:

call me crazy

but i would still like to test a lighter base

You're definitely not crazy! We want the lightest base possible as well. But there are limits because of the aluminum. As I said before, I doubt we'll see 220s, but low 200s is a possibility.

**Harpmaker** · **07-23-08, 07:44 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

You're definitely not crazy! We want the lightest base possible as well. But there are limits because of the aluminum. As I said before, I doubt we'll see 220s, but low 200s is a possibility.

Along these lines; I have my sample chits drying of Benjamin Moore Regal Matte tinted Bermuda Beige mixed with AAA-F and AAA-M.

It's way to soon to do any specto readings, but by using the 'ol eyelumenscope the 4:1 mix with AAA-F looks to be on par. The 4:1 mix with AAA-M definitely has some BB color that wasn't neutralized by the AAA-M; in fact, I tried a 2:1 mix with AAA-M and it still "didn't take the red out". It boggles my mind that there is so much difference between AAA-F and AAA-M!

On the plus side, I think this bodes well for creating a lighter BW mix. It stands to reason that since the AAA-M doesn't need all the tint in BB to neutralize it, that tint can be taken out of the formula thus leaving a lighter base to mix with the AAA-M.

**mechman** · **07-23-08, 07:51 PM**

That's what I was waiting for Harp1! I needed some confirmation that I wasn't crazy!

It is wierd though that medium and coarse behave differently. Bill was told once by an artist though that aluminum is pretty powerful in what we're trying to do with it.

**Harpmaker** · **07-23-08, 10:17 PM**

I think I have good news!

While I can't say for sure, since the sample chits need to cure overnight as well as dry (I learned my lesson there!), I am very optimistic that I have neutralized AAA-M. Turns out one of the bases I was using for my Cream&Sugar development SEEMS to work well with AAA-M; early tests show that it IS neutral, but there is room for improvement.

Stay tuned!

Preliminary tests show the 4:1 mix coming in around 221 RGB!

**mechman** · **07-23-08, 11:30 PM**

Nice job Harp!!

See custy! Even Bill and I don't know everything!

Although Bill's been extremely busy at work. I still figured the best we could do would be 205ish!

**custard** · **07-24-08, 03:38 AM**

thanks harp

- you were quick off the mark with testing of the lighter base.

when i was testing hycote aluminium in the uk i was getting the same type of results in that the mix stayed pink when mixed with s0907.

i did try mixing a white which was warm - same as the sw white that you used in a 4:1 ratio. we found it had a slight green push. is this the case with your tests?

dulux matt white: 247,247,240

the result: 231,233,231

**Harpmaker** · **07-24-08, 06:53 AM**

Quote:

custard wrote:

thanks harp

- you were quick off the mark with testing of the lighter base.

Sometimes the old brain kicks in gear and works, but only sometimes.

It took awhile to remember my C&S bases.

Quote:

when i was testing hycote aluminium in the uk i was getting the same type of results in that the mix stayed pink when mixed with s0907.

i did try mixing a white which was warm - same as the sw white that you used in a 4:1 ratio. we found it had a slight green push. is this the case with your tests?

dulux matt white: 247,247,240

the result: 231,233,231

Yes, but on a smaller level. The current numbers for the light base mix are 219 220 219; and while it isn't as dead-on neutral as the BB/AAA-F mixes (which have us spoiled!), it IS neutral. The color temp for this mix is currently 6532.6!

I'm using the words "current" and "currently" since the sample is only about 12 hours old; I like to let my samples dry and cure 24 hours before calling the readings "done" (and there can be minor changes even after that).

The relevant info for making this BW formula has been sent to the BW development team; when it has passed muster it will be made public.

**custard** · **07-24-08, 08:53 AM**

excellent harp.

i have a warm white in mind already that i may test.

s-0300n
RGB 0-255 = 245.82 244.88 241.07 from easyrgb

i think it may give a slight blue push if the values are accurate.

i'm going back to work now

**mechman** · **07-24-08, 09:32 AM**

Custy,

Harp will be releasing the numbers for Gryzboken's Cat soon!

**wbassett** · **07-24-08, 10:28 AM**

Quote:

Harpmaker wrote:

Yes, but on a smaller level. The current numbers for the light base mix are 219 220 219; and while it isn't as dead-on neutral as the BB/AAA-F mixes (which have us spoiled!), it IS neutral. The color temp for this mix is currently 6532.6!

I just want to state that is well within the neutral tolerance specs. A bullseye is a bullseye right?

I guess a dead center bullseye is more impressive than a shot that's not dead center but still in the black... but they both are definitely kill shots for sure, and this is close enough to dead center that even Lt. Riggs would be proud! Don you definitely earned your sniper's hat!

The only reason I even mention that is I know some people will see the wording 'isn't dead-on neutral' and think that means it's not neutral. Other's would even try to spin it and say we even admitted it wasn't 'dead-on neutral'. It is definitely well within parameters to be called a D65 neutral gray. Let's let it cure awhile and take some more readings.

Let me put it this way, a person would not be able to tell the difference between this and the BW using AAA Fine. If you swappped screens out they would only need to adjust their contrast and brightness, color settings would remain the same.

By the way, the neutral tolerance specifications weren't something we just made up. I consulted the director of the Color Science Department at RIT and we determined the specs for what can legitimately be called a D65 neutral, and this is one of them!

**custard** · **07-24-08, 12:32 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Custy,

Harp will be releasing the numbers for Gryzboken's Cat soon!

i'm abit lost.you'll have to help me. who's gryzboken?

**mechman** · **07-24-08, 12:54 PM**

Quote:

custard wrote:

i'm abit lost.you'll have to help me. who's gryzboken?

Gryzboken's Cat is what I coined the base for this. Haven't heard from harp yet though on what he wants to call it.

There was a chap commenting on a different forum about how insane the other forum is. While I've lost the link, it talked of all the ridiculous things being said. The post ended with something like "spin the cat three times in a clockwise motion to pay homage to Gryzboken - the god of screen paint". When someone get's the link could you let us know what it is? It was some really funny stuff custy! And it had an air of truth about it!

**mechman** · **07-24-08, 01:14 PM**

Grzboken:

Quote:

Be wary of the DIY screen forum at <the other forum>. You can get some great advice there, but there are an awful lot of obsessive crackpots that must have been alchemists in a past life ("Add just one teaspoon of Heinz Ketchup to your white paint to counteract the green shift in your lens. We call this Pennsylvania Paste. Then buy eight cans of silver spray paint. Now alternate a spray paint layer with a layer of Pennsylvania Paste, for a total of 58 layers, over a silver hand mirror. Sand each layer in a way so that the total thickness of all layers is 5". You may need to do this several times before you get the thickness right. While doing this, stand on one leg, while swinging a dead cat in your left hand, in homage to Grzboken, the patron demon of Home Theater. And whatever you do, Don't forget to stir each can of paint exactly 167 times!!!)"

The guy who wrote that was a genius!

**custard** · **07-24-08, 03:01 PM**

thats quite funny

**custard** · **07-24-08, 05:28 PM**

i was assuming the base was sw luminous white because that was what harp used for c & s?

**mechman** · **07-24-08, 07:04 PM**

Custy- no. It's not luminous white. When Harp gets a reading after 24 hours, and it looks good. He'll throw it out here for us!

We're still gonna work on a 205ish BW as well.

**wbassett** · **07-24-08, 09:25 PM**

Plus LW has that icky mica! The danger of adding aluminum to it is you might go back in time and destroy the space/time continuum!

Actually they use a very different grade and quality of mica, but I still wouldn't mix the two.

**mechman** · **07-24-08, 11:22 PM**

You should probably put a wink in that post Bill! Not everyone's been around long enough to realize you're joking!

So I'll throw this question out. Are we gonna have a beta tester? And if so, whom? If this thing is around 220, we're gonna be blowing some socks off of the white and the lower lumen crowd!

Harp - what's the latest readings?

I gotta go to bed.

**wbassett** · **07-25-08, 01:34 AM**

Who said I was joking? One time I added the two together and went back in time and urged myself never ever to get into any of this! When my wife saw two of me standing there arguing over paint they had to up her meds and increase her therapy visits- so I had to mix up another batch to go even further back in time to tell myself to ignore myself if I ever saw myself again... and to never ever listen to anything that myself tells myself.

I think maybe it caused some brain damage!

**custard** · **07-25-08, 03:15 AM**

mech/bill - my bad...... i've got the pm on what the base is now

i should be able to engage the 'final frontier' at warp 10 this weekend as the AAA has arrived and i have a base in mind

**Harpmaker** · **07-25-08, 10:02 AM**

Sorry guys, I went to bed early last night... to sleep.

The solid numbers for the AAA-M sample are:
L*a*b*: 87.74 -0.77 0.22
RGB: 219 220 219

We advance to the next stage of testing - Sample Panel.

I'll try to get this done this weekend.

**muzz** · **07-25-08, 11:36 AM**

Continuing with the great work here at The Shack I see!!

Great job guys!

Nice to see ya made it here custy

I got so tired of the 'Mine is better than yours" stuff that was going on, I just bailed out of it for my own sanity, but the great collaborations are still being done here at The Shack!!

**mechman** · **07-25-08, 01:16 PM**

Quote:

muzz wrote:

Continuing with the great work here at The Shack I see!!

Great job guys!

Nice to see ya made it here custy

I got so tired of the 'Mine is better than yours" stuff that was going on, I just bailed out of it for my own sanity, but the great collaborations are still being done here at The Shack!!

'Idle hands....'

Sometimes we just can't sit still muzz! But we do things at our pace!

**mechman** · **07-25-08, 01:22 PM**

So to update this thread, Harp has gotten us to 220. And I believe the bases mentioned in post 50 will get us in the 200-209 range. Harp has a couple others he's looking at too.

I'm out of action for awhile.

Custy is going to try and match the paint samples over in the UK and test them out.

Harp is going to paint up a panel of the new 220 BW.

Keep in mind as you read this thread that none of this has been tried with a pj yet. We're hopeful, but it could still turn out to be a bust.

**wbassett** · **07-25-08, 01:48 PM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

Sometimes we just can't sit still muzz! But we do things at our pace!

I'd rather we're a bit slow and get it right than rush and make mistakes that we end up having to change on the fly!

It may take awhile but once it's done it's done and we don't go back and constantly change things because there's no need to. A lot of the testing up until just now with these new shades was mostly jumping through hoops because of some things a few naysayers were saying. Eventually I hope people will trust us and that won't happen again.

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