Further Investigations Part III

**custard** · **07-25-08, 01:58 PM**

Quote:

muzz wrote:

Nice to see ya made it here custy

i couldn't stay away.

have found my new home is blinging! and should be living there for a long while

**mechman** · **07-25-08, 04:11 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

I'd rather we're a bit slow and get it right than rush and make mistakes that we end up having to change on the fly!

It may take awhile but once it's done it's done and we don't go back and constantly change things because there's no need to. A lot of the testing up until just now with these new shades was mostly jumping through hoops because of some things a few naysayers were saying. Eventually I hope people will trust us and that won't happen again.

Amen brutha!

**custard** · **07-25-08, 05:16 PM**

i have two bases in mind for AAA-M

the lighter base
S0505-y80r easyrgb= 244.57 232.18 225.79

the darker base
S1005-y80r easyrgb= 226.58 214.37 207.92

i will buy the samples for provisional testing tomorrow if the figures are agreeable.

please chirp in if you think i'm going wrong. i'm open to suggestions

**custard** · **07-26-08, 07:21 AM**

ok so i did not receive any feedback on the bases i was using so i took that as a positive sign.

the bases were bought early this morning and the testing began.

i still have some more samples to mix to mix in a 3:1 ratio after i have finished writing this post.

my first impressions using my not so trusty eyes:

1) the lighter base looks promising. i cant see any pushing of red, blue or green. and it looks very light

2) the darker base seems to have slight red push

. thinking aloud i think this can either be down to me calculating the wrong base, easyrgb was inaccurate or the mixer at the centre was inaccurate. i will have a better understanding of this once i post the samples to mech for spectro analysis.

3) along the line of what harp touched on i have also mixed some various concoctions using a mixture of AAA-F, AAA-M, s0907,s1005 and s0505. these mixes look quite promising aswell

more to follow later

**mechman** · **07-26-08, 09:02 AM**

Quote:

custard wrote:

ok so i did not receive any feedback on the bases i was using so i took that as a positive sign.

It's still all an unknown.

Dealing with aluminum isn't very easy! And your results for the darker N8 mix mimicked harp's yesterday.

Quote:

custard wrote:

the bases were bought early this morning and the testing began.

i still have some more samples to mix to mix in a 3:1 ratio after i have finished writing this post.

my first impressions using my not so trusty eyes:

1) the lighter base looks promising. i cant see any pushing of red, blue or green. and it looks very light

2) the darker base seems to have slight red push

. thinking aloud i think this can either be down to me calculating the wrong base, easyrgb was inaccurate or the mixer at the centre was inaccurate. i will have a better understanding of this once i post the samples to mech for spectro analysis.

We need to get a spectro over there!

Quote:

custard wrote:

3) along the line of what harp touched on i have also mixed some various concoctions using a mixture of AAA-F, AAA-M, s0907,s1005 and s0505. these mixes look quite promising aswell

more to follow later

I think we're good on the BWN8.5 (the 220 rgb one), now we need to get the BWN8 worked out. I need to get some spectro numbers from you and harp to figure it out though.

**custard** · **07-26-08, 09:56 AM**

Quote:

mechman wrote:

It's still all an unknown.

Dealing with aluminum isn't very easy! And your results for the darker N8 mix mimicked harp's yesterday.

i think that it more likely that easyrgb or the centre were inaccurate but hopefully we can figure out the right base soon

Quote:

We need to get a spectro over there!

i will PM you on this issue. dont want any1 else interfering with my purchase!

Quote:

I think we're good on the BWN8.5 (the 220 rgb one), now we need to get the BWN8 worked out. I need to get some spectro numbers from you and harp to figure it out though.

all the mixes are done now and curing.

one of the mixes i have done is s0907 (4 parts), s0505 (4 parts), AAA-F (1 part) and AAA-M (1-part). this i hoped would keep everthing neutral as it is basically the original black widow and the N8.5 black widow mixed together
....... looking at it i cant see any colour push and its probably about n8

**Harpmaker** · **07-26-08, 12:23 PM**

Quote:

custard wrote:

i think that it more likely that easyrgb or the centre were inaccurate but hopefully we can figure out the right base soon

In my experience, RGB numbers for standard house paints are approximates since they don't really need to be exact values for the normal use of the paint. Most professional painters will actually mix a number of cans of the same brand and color of paint together to be sure of having a homogeneous color for a room. My guess is that problems matching the color of a wall to repair it years later aren't necessarily due to the paint fading or aging, but due to this inexact color mixing at the store. Just my $0.02.

I just got a paint that was 3 points low on the Blue value reported by EasyRGB, 1 point low on Red and Green. It was not color-matched, but in the brand and base it was designed for.

As for finding new bases for a mix based on a known base paint that makes a neutral mix; I just found out it ISN'T linear. I thought that dropping the base values for the paint I used to neutralize AAA-M would give me a darker base that would still be neutral with AAA-M. It didn't work out that way. The problem is under investigation by those smarter than me.

Mixing colored paints IS an exact science, but the people that have figured this out are making BIG bucks selling color-matching programs that use those mathematical formulae; and they ain't about to tell us squat!

**wbassett** · **07-26-08, 02:42 PM**

One of the problems I see is stop thinking RGB and start thinking subtractive... like I said in a previous post- Think like the paint, become one with the paint... be the paint!

The pigments interact in a subtractive manner, and trying to balance it buy manipulating Red Green and Blue is a difficult task. Note I did not say it is impossible, but it is difficult. To adjust the paint you need to adjust the CMYK values... Cyan, Magenta and Yellow for the color, and then K (black) for the shade.

Trying to add say green and it's not going to have the same outcome as changing the CMYK values because green is a primary color for additive color, but a secondary color in the subtractive system. Make sense?

It really can be a mind bender. The goal, at least ours, is to get a combination of subtractive colors so that what we see is a neutral gray. That way when we project an image on the screen it doesn't absorb any colors, it just reflects back the excess light energy as the same color that the projector is putting out.

**Harpmaker** · **07-26-08, 03:11 PM**

I've made the jump to thinking subtractive rather than additive, but I'm still adjusting to using CMYK instead of an artist's color wheel.

**wbassett** · **07-26-08, 04:41 PM**

Harp that wasn't directed at you specifically, more of general statement and mindset that people should start thinking about.

What makes things hard, and is a reason for so much debate at times is that a projector produces additive colors and a screen is made with subtractive colors. Way too often I see people trying to design a screen but they keep thinking additive colors. The trick is controlling the light and additive colors with a subtractive based system.

(Slightly)
One of the goals of some has been to create a neutral gray using Red, Green, and Blue. As we know those are the primary colors for light. It is possible to do it but extremely difficult and I'll explain why.

It is possible to get a neutral gray with just Red Green and Blue, however there is a huge but...
Each and every color must be pure, meaning Red has to be 255 0 0, Green 0 255 0, and Blue 0 0 255. That is a very difficult feat right there. Not only do we need pure colors, they also must be of the exact same intensity values for this to work. That's not all though. They also must be the exact same volume.

If any of those three very hard to control variables are off even slightly, we don't get a neutral gray. Depending how far they are off, we may not even get a grayish color at all.

Where it gets difficult is that Red is actually Magenta and Yellow, and our other primary additive colors are also comprised of two subtractive colors. If any are off, then once again our gray is off.

So when people mix Red Green and Blue together, they may think they are adding three primary colors but in reality they are actually adding six units of primary subtractive colors. The theory isn't what's hard, it's the precise measurements and specs that make it so difficult. (If you want a real mind bender, you can actually create a neutral gray with just Blue and Yellow!)

Trying to bring this back on topic now and how this applies to these investigations-
The goal is to create a highly reflective neutral gray by using aluminum and a base paint pre-colored so when the two are combined it results in our desired neutral gray. If we try to make the adjustments using RGB, it could take a very very long time to get the exact balance needed. Then there is the problem with making it consistently reproduce able.

I've heard the theory that by using Red Green and Blue to create a neutral gray (or even a grayish color, some people do not believe in the D65 neutral concept) is that the Red Green and Blue Colors will reflect back the primary colors that the projector is creating and be a more accurate image. The problem is the individual color pigments of Red is not Red, but as shown is actually Magenta and Yellow.

Here's the thing... once the colors are combined to create a new color, we don't 'see' those pigments individually. If a spectrophotometer 'sees' something as a neutral gray, then it is a neutral gray, and the projector will 'see' it as a neutral gray palate too. It really doesn't matter how it was created, just that the end result is our neutral gray in the shade we desire.

So okay, the cat's out of the bag! In order to tweak the base paint color for Black Widow we have to manipulate CYMK (not RGB) plus the aluminum. Aluminum is pretty potent stuff which is why we're seeing a non-linear reaction when we make a change to the base.

This is the hard part of development, but once a base is identified we can accurately reproduce a Black Widow with ease. The end product isn't very difficult at all, but for some reading through these threads it may sound like this is a difficult application.

I apologize about the side bar, I just thought for the sake of some of the members reading through these threads it would be good to explain the method to our madness. It may look like we're just guessing, and in some instances it is a tweak based on an educated 'guess'- but there really is a lot of thought put into why we are using certain base colors and how we are determining which ones to use. Ultimately what really matters is the spectrophotometer reading of the finished mix.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

**custard** · **07-26-08, 04:46 PM**

Quote:

wbassett wrote:

One of the problems I see is stop thinking RGB and start thinking subtractive... like I said in a previous post- Think like the paint, become one with the paint... be the paint!

The pigments interact in a subtractive manner, and trying to balance it buy manipulating Red Green and Blue is a difficult task. Note I did not say it is impossible, but it is difficult. To adjust the paint you need to adjust the CMYK values... Cyan, Magenta and Yellow for the color, and then K (black) for the shade.

Trying to add say green and it's not going to have the same outcome as changing the CMYK values because green is a primary color for additive color, but a secondary color in the subtractive system. Make sense?

It really can be a mind bender. The goal, at least ours, is to get a combination of subtractive colors so that what we see is a neutral gray. That way when we project an image on the screen it doesn't absorb any colors, it just reflects back the excess light energy as the same color that the projector is putting out.

i'm gonna bow down to your greater knowledge and wisdom to get some rgb values

i was hoping to use harps original figures for the N8.5 and convert then to cymk. then i was going to increase the k value (black) until i reached a figure which looked acceptable. lastly i would convert back to RGB.

i have already had abit of a play with this and provisionally i'm getting 223, 212, 206.
i'm going to have another go at this soon as i have my caffeine hit!

Bill, is this the right way to do it or not????

**custard** · **07-26-08, 06:27 PM**

bill - thanks for the PM

**mechman** · **07-30-08, 06:15 PM**

6 days to go until I'm able to start tinkering again. I think Harp is very close though and there won't be much for me to do.

**mechman** · **08-03-08, 01:16 AM**

I just received my Shack news tonight and I found this thread as one of the hottest on the forum of late.

We're still working and we're getting closer to the final goal of some newer and lighter Black Widows using Auto Air Aluminum. And I'm a few days away from donning the lab coat yet again!

**mechman** · **08-10-08, 09:12 PM**

We're still working on the N8, N8.5 and N9 Black Widows. I spent the whole afternoon mixing up various samples and they're just about dry enough for some spectro readings. Most of these are simply repeats of Harpmaker's work he's done lately. He is the one who's been getting us there while I was busy doing the family thing for 9 days.

**mayhem13** · **08-11-08, 12:36 PM**

Anyone ever woked with Behr Luminouso silver-seems like interesting stuff ?

**mechman** · **08-11-08, 01:05 PM**

Never heard of it. But if it's like most Behr products it is likely that it contains a high amount of mica in it. And a lot of times the mica acts to refract as opposed to reflect. Harp found a Craft Smart product which is mica based though that actually doesn't refract. So it's possible. The only way to find out though is to put it under a microscope and see what it does.

**mayhem13** · **08-11-08, 01:28 PM**

Definitely going with the Black Widow for my Mitsu 1500 but i think i'll wait to see how the fine vs med/coarse ends up. Thanx for all the hard work here helping to save us DIYers a lot of cash ! The BW is a good choice for the Mitsu i hope ?

**Harpmaker** · **08-11-08, 01:39 PM**

Quote:

mayhem13 wrote:

Anyone ever woked with Behr Luminouso silver-seems like interesting stuff ?

Unless it has been reformulated, which I doubt, this is the same Behr metallic silver that has been used in DIY screen paints for years. I believe it has the same part number as the old Behr silver, it just has a new fancier name.

The Behr is a darker silver than Folkart silver due to some black particles being in the paint. Both the Behr and Folkart silvers have a prismatic effect that can cause a shimmering effect in bright areas of the screen if too much is used. I don't know why, but this prismatic effect is not exhibited by the Craft Smart Metallic Silver.

**mechman** · **08-11-08, 04:23 PM**

Quote:

mayhem13 wrote:

Definitely going with the Black Widow for my Mitsu 1500 but i think i'll wait to see how the fine vs med/coarse ends up. Thanx for all the hard work here helping to save us DIYers a lot of cash ! The BW is a good choice for the Mitsu i hope ?

I believe your 1500 is similar to my HC3000U. It works very well with my pj! Start up a new thread telling us what you're looking for, how big of a screen, what type of ambient light there is, etc.

We're getting closer everyday to lighter BW's! And this is due to Harpmaker's work ethic not mine!

**muzz** · **08-12-08, 08:30 PM**

How about a lighter 558 mix!!

I'm looking to upgrade from my AX100 to an Epson 1080UB, so there will be a drop in Lumens, and considering how much 558 I have on hand, I'd hate to go out and spend $ on AAA.

I know.....you guys have nothing better to do with your time.....

**muzz** · **08-13-08, 08:36 AM**

OK have we got a definite on the 220 mix yet?
I have a dealer nearby that sells AAA- I haven't called them yet to see what versions they have, but there are like 5 of them in MA- with 1 of them within 20 minutes.

I'll paint the Medium if I can get it, but don't know the base used....

**muzz** · **08-13-08, 10:36 AM**

The nearby location has the Fine and the coarse in stock, no medium.
7.46 each- walk in...TYVM!

**mechman** · **08-13-08, 02:40 PM**

Stick with the original for now Gary! We're at least a couple weeks away from any lighter versions.

**muzz** · **08-13-08, 04:34 PM**

Original it is.

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