Need Help Deciding

Hi, I have a Panasonic PT-AE2000U. I need help deciding which paint mixture to use (Black Widow, Cream & Sugar ect..) I do have light control and it will be a 120" screen. Do you need any more information? Thanks.

[Harpmaker]

Hi Hammer!

Welcome to the Shack!

How far is the projector from the screen and what colors are your walls, floor and ceiling?

How far are you setting from the screen for viewing?

What was your previous screen?

Harpmaker wrote:

Hi Hammer!

Welcome to the Shack! Thanks!

How far is the projector from the screen and what colors are your walls, floor and ceiling?

About 12'. The wall is a color called "passive" which is a light gray. The floors are laminate wood floors which are a light brown type color. The ceiling is white.
How far are you setting from the screen for viewing?
About 10'
What was your previous screen? We just got the projector so right now it's on the wall :P

Hope this helps!

[Harpmaker]

Yes indeed, very helpful answers!

According to Projector Centrals calculator, assuming a 16:9 screen ratio, your getting 17 foot-lamberts of brightness at the screen. That is plenty for a Black Widow screen.

I am also assuming your wall is painted Sherwin-Williams Passive; this paint has RGB numbers of 203 205 202. This is close to a Munsell N8 shade of gray. Black Widow using Valspar Ultra Premium enamel paint tinted PPG-Bermuda Beige with Auto Air Aluminum (fine) added in a 4:1 ratio would give you a darker screen (about N7.5) while maintaining white levels similar to what you are now getting. I, personally, would go that route.

If you think your current image is too dark, then think about trying C&S. Your image will be brighter, but your black levels won't be as good as with BW if there is much light in the room at all. C&S is about an N9 shade of gray (almost white).

Harpmaker wrote:

Yes indeed, very helpful answers!

According to Projector Centrals calculator, assuming a 16:9 screen ratio, your getting 17 foot-lamberts of brightness at the screen. That is plenty for a Black Widow screen.

I am also assuming your wall is painted Sherwin-Williams Passive; this paint has RGB numbers of 203 205 202. This is close to a Munsell N8 shade of gray. Black Widow using Valspar Ultra Premium enamel paint tinted PPG-Bermuda Beige with Auto Air Aluminum (fine) added in a 4:1 ratio would give you a darker screen (about N7.5) while maintaining white levels similar to what you are now getting. I, personally, would go that route.

If you think your current image is too dark, then think about trying C&S. Your image will be brighter, but your black levels won't be as good as with BW if there is much light in the room.

How you know that stuff I don't know. And yes, it is Sherwin Williams Passive. Is it good to have a dark screen in a dark room? What is the pros and cons of C&S, BW and Kilz2?

[Harpmaker]

hammerheel wrote:

How you know that stuff I don't know. And yes, it is Sherwin Williams Passive. Is it good to have a dark screen in a dark room? What is the pros and cons of C&S, BW and Kilz2?

Sorry about that Hammer, I wasn't trying to impress you with techno-speak; I was just trying to say that the BW BB/AAA-F 4:1 mix would give you better black levels in your image, and allow some light in the room, while giving you similar white levels to what you now have.

It's a funny thing, our eyes and brain can be fooled into thinking that a non-white surface really looks white. It takes what we "know" is a white area of the image (like snow or a nurses uniform) and then compares all other colors or shades to that "known white". Thus we think that a gray wall can look white. This illusion of white has limits, and they vary from person to person. The truth is that the whites in our projected image can only be as white as the screen really is when hit with a "white" beam from the projector, and the blacks can only be as black as the screen really is with no light from the projector at all. It's an amazing thing when you think about it.

C&S is a very light gray screen (close to a N9 if you missed my edit of my last post ), and while it can be a good screen, it, by nature of physics itself, will have less apparent contrast that a darker screen if there is any other light on in the room; this includes light bouncing off walls, floor or ceiling back onto the screen.

People that are used to a white screen like C&S. It provides white levels similar to a white screen while giving bolder colors and better black levels. It is very much like a lighter version of Black Widow, but it is not made with aluminum paint so it isn't a BW mix.

Kilz2 is a a bit brighter than C&S, but it has no reflective particles in it as C&S and BW do. In my limited experience, it also changes color over time so it loses it's near-neutral color status in a few months. Many projectors can compensate for this lack of color neutrality (mine can't). In my opinion, the only thing Kilz2 has going for it, as a screen, is it's very cheap at around $13 a gallon. It does make a nice primer to paint over though.

Thanks for the quick replies and useful knowledge! I think I might try the Black Widow. Is there a step by step guide to it? Thanks.

[Harpmaker]

hammerheel wrote:

Thanks for the quick replies and useful knowledge! I think I might try the Black Widow. Is there a step by step guide to it? Thanks.

Sorry for the delayed response, I just watched a TV episode on DVD.

Yeah, there is a whole Sticky thread on Black Widow. Home Theater Shack is the home of Black Widow; I'm not a BW developer, just a beta tester; but I can give you a VERY condensed history of it.

One of the BW developers discovered a water-based aluminium paint at his local Wal-Mart and started experimenting with it; he found it had a lot of promise, but he was then told by the company that makes it that is was being discontinued. A co-developer in another state then found a similar paint local to him and all further screen development was based on it. This was the first Black Widow mix to be introduced. The "secret ingredient" was a roof paint called Henry #558. As with all things, development didn't stop and since the HE558 was hard for people to find locally (and had to be purchased by the gallon) another water-based aluminum paint was found called Auto Air Aluminum (fine). This paint was designed to be used to paint cars and motorcycles. It turned out to be an even better (more neutral in color) reflective additive than the HE558 and all newer BW testing was done using it.

The latest, and best in my personal opinion, BW mix is a simple mix of only two paints. Add two 4 ounce bottles of AAA-F (the short name for Auto Air Aluminum (fine)) to one quart of Valspar Ultra Premium enamel paint that has been tinted to match PPG-Bermuda Beige and stir. The resulting paint mix is VERY neutral in color and is about as dark a gray as most people want to use. The reflective aluminum in it makes it act as though it were a lighter gray paint when it comes to reproducing whites and light colors, while the "real" darker gray color of the mix makes it better at absorbing "ambient light" (light from other sources than the projector, or even projector light that is bouncing off walls, furniture etc. back onto the screen), and reproducing blacks in the image.

Other paints than the Valspar enamel can be used, but the Valspar enamel had shown itself to be the best paint so far for making this mix since it has just a bit more gloss than a regular flat latex paint, but less than satin or eggshell paints (that might well cause "hotspotting" [the screen surface appears to reflect an image with more or less brightness depending on where the viewer is setting in the room]).

BW can be applied with a roller, or by spraying if you have the equipment. I'm a sprayer.

Valspar paint is available from Lowe's Home Improvement stores, and AAA-F is available via mail-order, internet stores or even some local paint stores that cater to automotive body shops or airbrush artists.

Thank you so much. You've helped a ton.

[mechman]

Welcome to the Shack hammerheel!

FWTW, I have painted both screens, C&S and BW, and I like BW better, The colors are richer, the blacks better, and overall brightness is fine. Just take care when you apply--it's less forgiving on roller marks, in my experience, that C&S. But, if you get it right, you'll be very happy with it.

Thanks guys. I have decided to go with Black Widow. I will be using Harpmakers proposed mix. I will be getting/ordering the supplies today or tomorrow.

Harp, I'm having trouble finding the correct Valspar paint! There's so many! I've narrowed them down to http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...i_products&N=0 so which one is it? Thanks.

[Harpmaker]

hammerheel wrote:

Harp, I'm having trouble finding the correct Valspar paint! There's so many! I've narrowed them down to http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...i_products&N=0 so which one is it? Thanks.

Hopefully, this link will work.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...170&lpage=none

If not, you want:
Valspar®
Quart Ultra Premium Interior Latex Flat Enamel Base 1 Item #: 210170; tinted "PPG-Bermuda Beige". Make sure the "PPG" is in the name. PPG is a paint manufacturer and brand name.

[wbassett]

Hammerheel welcome to the Shack!

At 17fL you definitely can handle a darker gray.

I do suggest though that if you are planning on painting directly on your wall to mask off your screen area and then prime it with Kilz2. That's always a good base to start with but also I want you to calibrate your projector to the Kilz2 screen to get a baseline on a unity gain white screen. Only then can you really determine if going with a gray screen, whether it's BW or another option, if you actually improved the image to your liking.

I think you will like BW, but without a baseline you'll never really know for sure. I'd rather you 'see' the difference for yourself and then you'll truly know. Some people are more into whites, and others want darker blacks. Until you really do a comparison you won't know.

I'm not one that will push a screen on anyone, it is ultimately what you like and not what I like, so take some time to do a baseline before just jumping on any method or even a commercial screen. I do think though you'll like BW but again... you have to see a baseline first before you can really say anything one way or the other. Don't go on what we or anyone else says... go with what you like the best. Whe you do the comparison though, I think you'll like BW.

Many DIY developers don't tell people to do this so yes, they are wowed with any screen that's better than a plain off white wall (often a cream color and not even a good white). I'd rather a person go with what they like the best.

Passive is a decent gray, so if you like that, you'll like BW even better I am sure. I personally would leave the rest of the wall that color since it will compliment the screen and won't reflect as much light back to the screen as a white or lighter color wall would.